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WRU move to kill off Ospreys

Former Former

Here's the story.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-ospreys-set-merge-major-15921430

Pretty massive stuff. The Scarlets were supposed to be big enough to survive as a single entity, it's a real shame it's (apparently) come to this.

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Cookiemunster

So definitely no merger then. Maybe.....

https://twitter.com/BBCSportWales/status/1103279314404065283

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Of course you are, you're a Leinster fan. The league structure and rules suits clubs like Leinster perfectly.

A short BS response to a much wider point being made. Munster have been consistently in the latter stages of Europe for years as well as the P14. Connacht have pushed on from where they were. Ulster are struggling, but that's got a hell of a lot more to do with Ulsters failings as a club than anything else at all. Looking at the number of starting forwards that were Ulster developed lately says a hell of a lot about where they are as a club. That's got nothing to do with the P14. If they were even half as competent as they should be they'd be measuring up to the likes of Munster too. And then of course we have the most successful Irish side of all time at the moment.

But sure don't mind any of that. It's not like all these things are in any way linked or anything. :rolleyes:

thomond2006

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So definitely no merger then. Maybe.....

https://twitter.com/BBCSportWales/status/1103279314404065283

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

troyzer

Can we just agree for a moment that there are two problems with the Pro14?

1) Lack of revenue.
2) Too many fixtures without the best players.

I honestly don't think the problems run any deeper than this. The teams are clearly competitive at full strength with the best of Europe, the league itself is also hyper competitive compared to other leagues when it comes to its domestic playoffs.

Letting another few South African teams would go a long way to solving both as long as they're good teams. It would allow a single league round robin with no games during international windows. This would mean that proportionately, we'd have more stars playing. Which raises the value of each fixture and the product as a whole.

It would also boost revenue.

thomond2006

21 fixtures overall (18 + 3 playoff stages) is the correct mix. There's enough to develop some young players while not overexposing the product. Looking at the current schedule, that would cut Round 1, 8/9 and 16.

I do think there needs to be an effort to start the season strongly in its fixtures. The season only tends to get major attention four of five weeks in once the European weekends approach. That's not ideal. There are player welfare issues regarding the preseason schedule of the international players but I'd love to see an interprofessional weekend kick off the Pro14/16 season. Get attention on the product from the beginning.

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

If there was uproar about Ospreys merging with Scarlets, would imagine there'd be even more that was proposed!

thomond2006

Eod100 wrote: »

If there was uproar about Ospreys merging with Scarlets, would imagine there'd be even more that was proposed!

There's a suggestion that the Ospreys are broke. That's the out.

Former Former

The Scarlets statement;

Some facts and timeline ...

Firstly, we can confirm the statement issued by the Professional Rugby Board (PRB) on Tuesday afternoon as accurate, as are the comments made by Wales’ national coach that the proposed merger was driven by the regions, in consultation with the PRB.

In late December, the Scarlets received a high-level approach from the Ospreys to explore the option of a merger as they had come to the conclusion that their position as tenants at the Liberty Stadium was proving to be challenging.

This was discussed at the two-day strategy meeting of PRB on January 8th and 9th. The loss of a region would have put Welsh rugby in breach of its commitment to having four regions playing in the major competitions. As a result, the option of a team playing out of North Wales was raised.

By the time of the next PRB meeting on February 5, discussions had broken down between the Scarlets and Ospreys and we were told that the Ospreys and another region were in talks over a possible merger, again with North Wales being the option to maintain four teams.

Subsequently, those discussions also broke down and we were approached again last week by the Ospreys to reconsider a merger.

Heads of terms were agreed and signed by the Ospreys and Scarlets on March 1 on terms we believe our supporters would be happy with. This was to be proposed at a meeting of the PRB on Tuesday afternoon, but we were told at the start of that meeting that the Ospreys had changed their mind.

The merger is off the table.

In recent years, the Scarlets have been building steadily to regain our place as one of Europe’s leading sides. We have a superb stadium, great staff, loyal and passionate supporters and a team to be proud of. We know that the problems regarding Welsh rugby have not gone away but we remain committed to the best interests of the Scarlets and the game in Wales.

https://www.scarlets.wales/en/team-news/articles/to-scarlets-supporters-everywhere/

So it seems the Ospreys floated the idea (presumably because the rent for Liberty is crippling them), then backed out when they saw the backlash.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

This is leaning towards North Wales replacing the Ospreys I think.

A plain reading of the Scarlets statement based with other things we know suggests that this was the order that things happened:

1) Ospreys are basically insolvent and can't service their agreement with Liberty stadium. Collapse inevitable so they sought to bring about an equitable merger with another team.

2) WRU greenlights it in principle provided it can get a fourth team to fulfill its obligations to the Pro14. It takes the North Wales plan it's probably had for ages from the safe, dusts it down and takes it to the Welsh assembly who say they'll row in. WRU sees this as an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.

3) Ospreys then realise that Scarlets won't consider a merger but are happy to absorb the Ospreys and continue just being the Scarlets.

4) Sometime in January, the WRU gave the Ospreys a cash injection to stave off bankruptcy (I remember reading this somewhere) while the Ospreys pursued a merger with the Blues.

5) Blues tell them the same thing: no problem, but we're still going to be called the Blues. WRU gets annoyed because the wheels are already in motion with North Wales.

6) Ospreys come back to Scarlets with cap in hand and agree in principle to a merger.

7) Ospreys fans lose their **** and Scarlets insist on it still being called the Scarlets. Ospreys back out again.

sydthebeat

ospreys being trolls

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a suggestion that the Ospreys are broke. That's the out.

Aha forgot about that.

Whole thing seems a mess. Ospreys will be completely hung out to dry if the minutes are published.

Think airing it all so publicly didn't do any party any favour. Plus the idea this could all be sorted before next season was daft! Surely would need at least a season to get sorted?

troyzer

It's starting to look like the Ospreys are the desperate ones telling porkies.

[Deleted User]

What an absolute shambles.

Another good example why having the IRFU own the provinces is optimal.

joseywhales

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What an absolute shambles.

Another good example why having the IRFU own the provinces is optimal.

I think it's nearly too optimal, we are pissing off every other European club with our delicious success, as they continue to bankrupt themselves and over hype their competitions

tototoe

troyzer wrote: »

Can we just agree for a moment that there are two problems with the Pro14?

1) Lack of revenue.
2) Too many fixtures without the best players.

I honestly don't think the problems run any deeper than this. The teams are clearly competitive at full strength with the best of Europe, the league itself is also hyper competitive compared to other leagues when it comes to its domestic playoffs.

Letting another few South African teams would go a long way to solving both as long as they're good teams. It would allow a single league round robin with no games during international windows. This would mean that proportionately, we'd have more stars playing. Which raises the value of each fixture and the product as a whole.

It would also boost revenue.

Maybe it's mixed in with 1 and 2, but a lack of interest of many supporters in the league is a big issue. Attendances are hardly record breaking with some games being exceptions.

troyzer

tototoe wrote: »

Maybe it's mixed in with 1 and 2, but a lack of interest of many supporters in the league is a big issue. Attendances are hardly record breaking with some games being exceptions.

The lack of interest and attendance depends on the country:

South Africa: the teams are **** and they're still salty about being kicked out of Super Rugby.

Ireland: actually has decent attendance all things considered but most fans shy away because it's a lesser competition.

Wales: same as Ireland as well as cocking up regionalisation.

Scotland: same as Ireland and NOBODY cares about rugby.

Italy: nobody cares about rugby.

tototoe

troyzer wrote: »

The lack of interest and attendance depends on the country:

South Africa: the teams are **** and they're still salty about being kicked out of Super Rugby.

Ireland: actually has decent attendance all things considered but most fans shy away because it's a lesser competition.

Wales: same as Ireland as well as cocking up regionalisation.

Scotland: same as Ireland and NOBODY cares about rugby.

Italy: nobody cares about rugby.

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

troyzer

tototoe wrote: »

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

It is a problem but it's not necessarily a problem with the league. As in, there's not much they can do to improve it.

Cookiemunster

tototoe wrote: »

Hence it's a problem. It's not the most engaging competition ever and the attendances reflect that....regardless if the country imo.

It was actually better a few years ago but has gone backwards if anything.

Premiership attendances aren't exactly stellar either. In fact the Pro14 attendances stand up pretty well against them.

troyzer

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Premiership attendances aren't exactly stellar either. In fact the Pro14 attendances stand up pretty well against them.

Do they? There were 7 Pro14 games over the weekend with a combined attendance of 40,760. Which is 5,822 per game.

There were 6 Premiership games with a combined attendance of 80,819 which is 13,469 per game.

Yeah, we don't compare favourably at all.

Just for the sake of completion:

Top14 had 88,269 for 12,609 per game.

I couldn't get three of the attendances for the Super Rugby games but the rest of them alone were over 50,000.

Cookiemunster

troyzer wrote: »

Do they? There were 7 Pro14 games over the weekend with a combined attendance of 40,760. Which is 5,822 per game.

There were 6 Premiership games with a combined attendance of 80,819 which is 13,469 per game.

Yeah, we don't compare favourably at all.

Just for the sake of completion:

Top14 had 88,269 for 12,609 per game.

I couldn't get three of the attendances for the Super Rugby games but the rest of them alone were over 50,000.

Try doing it over the season rather than one weekend. The figures have been posted on here previously. There isn't that much of a difference.

Eod100

troyzer wrote: »

Do they? There were 7 Pro14 games over the weekend with a combined attendance of 40,760. Which is 5,822 per game.

There were 6 Premiership games with a combined attendance of 80,819 which is 13,469 per game.

Yeah, we don't compare favourably at all.

Just for the sake of completion:

Top14 had 88,269 for 12,609 per game.

I couldn't get three of the attendances for the Super Rugby games but the rest of them alone were over 50,000.

Skewed a bit by Zebre and Benneton being at home. That said Connacht, Dragons and Blues attendance for weekend just gone wasn't much better.

Guess comparison with Premiership is different because of population differences and also all teams being in one country and having decent transport links for away fans. Would imagine there was fairly sizeable Gloucester support at Bristol say.

Bar Newcastle and Sale and Exeter to an extent, teams are fairly concentrated together.

OldRio

troyzer wrote: »

Do they? There were 7 Pro14 games over the weekend with a combined attendance of 40,760. Which is 5,822 per game.

There were 6 Premiership games with a combined attendance of 80,819 which is 13,469 per game.

Yeah, we don't compare favourably at all.

Just for the sake of completion:

Top14 had 88,269 for 12,609 per game.

I couldn't get three of the attendances for the Super Rugby games but the rest of them alone were over 50,000.

Ah now, one weekend?

Blut2

Cherrypicking one weekend doesn't hold up. It can be done either way easily. The weekend of October 6th had 7 Pro14 games with a total attendance of 96,546. Neither it or last weekends 40,760 are representative of anything as a whole given the way fixtures fluctuate, the overall season average is far more important.

daddy pig

The average attendance for the current seasons to give a decent indicator are below.
Aviva Premiership : 13,512
Pro 14 : 7,474
Top 14 : 13,566

The average attendance per Pro 14 country is below.
Ireland : 12,508
Scotland : 7,001
Wales : 6,753
South Africa : 3,776
Italy : 3,016

Leinster have the 4th highest average attendance in Europe - 17,881
Ulster have the 17th highest average attendance in Europe - 13,233
Munster have the 18th highest average attendance in Europe - 12,831

troyzer

I picked the most recent weekend as a good example of core attendance for games in an international window with little or no prospect of seeing the best players. Over the season, the comparison is a bit more favourable.

But the numbers suggest that they still go to games in France and England even in international windows. And the reason why they do that is because these games still matter when it comes to relegation.

[Deleted User]

troyzer wrote: »

I picked the most recent weekend as a good example of core attendance for games in an international window with little or no prospect of seeing the best players. Over the season, the comparison is a bit more favourable.

But the numbers suggest that they still go to games in France and England even in international windows. And the reason why they do that is because these games still matter when it comes to relegation.

Or, because their internationals are spread between 12-14 teams therefore your average team will be missing a couple of players. Whereas in the Pro 14 the internationals are spread between 2,2 and 4 teams therefore significantly more players are missing during the international window.

It appears years of the English talking ****e about relegation has finally convinced people. Also worth noting this season is a massive outlier in terms of the number of teams who were involved in the relegation fight. Normally its 1 team who get relegated by miles with 1 other team only remotely threatened.

Thrashssacre

This argument is pointless some clubs in England and France have a similar popular catchment to the entire populations of Ireland, wales and Scotland, the fact we pull about half the crowd size roughly speaking means were actually engaging a larger percentage of the population

[Deleted User]

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54265

This is an absolute **** show and bad for the pro 14 but by God is it amusing.

irishbucsfan

I’ve tried to explain this before but relegation DOES have a valuable effect on the competitiveness of teams and in maintaining interest in the bottom half of the Premiership table however the Pro 14 doesn’t need that because the carrot of European qualification has traditionally been a direct replacement. The move away from guaranteeing the top places Italian team a place in the Heineken Cup has actually changed that somewhat but it’s still there.

The Pro 14 is just as good a league as the Premiership or Top 14 these days and it’s well followed. It just doesn’t have the marketing team because the unions (our own in particular) are only starting to loosen the reins in the last couple of seasons.