FrancieBrady wrote: » Those three words again 'I had no idea'. Willie Frazer has been connected with loyalist paramilitaries several times.
downcow wrote: » You have not provided a shred of evidence about him being an paramilitary. Indeed I find the unsubstantiated allegations a bit concerning. A bit of hearsay may be enough for you but I have learnt not to trust hearsay. It is interesting that you use this bit of hearsay to try and justify the blocking of a victims parade in Dublin. Can you not just say Dublin is not quite as open and accepting as you would like it to be and would there struggle to accept northern unionists into its fold.
murphaph wrote: » I've said before that absent Brexit I'd need serious convincing about the merits of a UI. With a hard Brexit the story changes radically for me as I voted for the GFA and a hard border is anathema to that, but I wonder how low the threshold is for the posters who would be more in favour of unification right now. Would you accept say 5k a year less in your pocket? Would you be happy to push that burden on others who may not be so financially comfortable? What is your top price you'd be willing to pay for a UI personally? Everyone has their price. You can't live on fresh air.
murphaph wrote: » No takers from the non-partitionists? :P What would be too expensive a price for you or your friends/family to bear?
Peregrinus wrote: » I'm not convinced that this is a very meaningful or realistic question. What price are you prepared to pay to achieve any desirable social or political outcome? What price are you currently actually paying to acheive some goal and, given the choice, would you choose not to pay it? What's the cost, for example, of keeping Connacht in the Republic of Ireland with the same tax, benefit, spending, etc rules that apply in the rest of the country? What price are you paying, and what increased price would you be prepared to pay, to protect vulnerable children? To provide care to the frail and infirm? To provide social and economic inclusion to people affected by disablity? What price, for that matter, would you pay, or are you actually paying, to sustain partition? Would you pay more? How much more? These questions all have financial implications that need to be addressed, but ultimately they are all about justice and solidarity, and they can't be reduced to commercial transactions. Attempts to do so just trivialise them in ways that are quite disparaging of those affected by the issues involved.
murphaph wrote: » No takers from the non-partitionists? :P
downcow wrote: » Its a good question, but don't hold your breath for answers from the Pro-UI lobby. They will duck and dive on this one. I see the procrastinations rolling in already, ironically many from the same people who have been saying UK will chuck NI because its costing too much, and how could you support Brexit when you don't know what it will cost, etc, etc. And naming figures may be rediculous to some posters here on UI issue but same folk have no problem with figures bandying about on No-deal Brexit. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I can't understand how SF are getting away with calling for a border poll without telling us how we will all be impacted and what are rights will be etc. I suppose they could always send a big red bus aroung Ireland in the weeks leading up to a poll!
Avatar MIA wrote: » As discussed previously the £10b per annum figure has been discredited and I don't mean by SF (and you know that, but would be happy to reference just to continue to muddy the waters).
Avatar MIA wrote: » 5k is complete bollox. Why entertain dribble?
The DUP MP Jim Shannon used his speech to talk about the lack of devolution. "The people of Northern Ireland have had the bare minimum for too long," said the Strangford representative.
murphaph wrote: » I have to disagree with your analysis. Children living in poverty can't be compared with NI remaining in the UK. The border for me and the vast majority of citizens both in Ireland and Northern Ireland poses no problem worth spending billions on. Hard Brexit is a different matter but assuming the border remains as it is you really can't assign equivalence to child poverty and unification. Connaught is already part of the state. It's not an option to remove it but it is an option for NI to continue with its existing constitutional position, for me at least. A hard Brexit is a different kettle of fish.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I think you are being disingenuous here. The point was that we absorb all sorts of expense and cost in our daily lives because we have a sense of duty and care for everyone on the island. We are programmed that way, as if we weren't nobody would pay for anything and we would be just individuals looking after number one. The fact is we are not, we see ourselves as a homogeneous group called the 'Irish' and we are willing to pay for that and of course benefit from it too.
murphaph wrote: » I take it from your rather ignorant answer that 5k would be too expensive for you.
Avatar MIA wrote: » Don't worry about me I could personally afford it. But, it would not be affordable for the majority of the people, but luckily the 5k per annum figure is bogus. Where does it even come from - 10b divided by 2m workers? Now, where do you get the 10b from? Can you substantiate the make up of this figure? If not, leave the debate to the grown ups.
Dytalus wrote: » I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant an 'average' of 5k per person. Our taxes are progressive so it would be kind of obtuse to assume it would be a flat 5k per person. I could just about handle it, and I live pretty frugaly without much in the way of expenses outside of rent and food. It'd be rather silly of the government to impose it on people earning less than I am.
Avatar MIA wrote: » I'm assuming he means €5k per worker. If it was €5k per person it'd be well over €20b per year. But, shur, that figure is just as plausible.
Avatar MIA wrote: » If not, leave the debate to the grown ups.
Dytalus wrote: » Thanks for pointing it out, post edited. I do think the full €10b is...unlikely, but I understand where they're coming from. There's no hard evidence we won't be paying all of it (and there probably won't be until a border poll is called for), so it's natural to assume we will. As unlikely as it is, in these kind of scenarios there is a certain kind of sense to assuming (and preparing for) the worst.
Dytalus wrote: » Yes...that is what I meant to write, but I am an idiot. ._. Thanks for pointing it out, post edited. I do think the full €10b is...unlikely, but I understand where they're coming from. There's no hard evidence we won't be paying all of it (and there probably won't be until a border poll is called for), so it's natural to assume we will. As unlikely as it is, in these kind of scenarios there is a certain kind of sense to assuming (and preparing for) the worst.
murphaph wrote: » YOU are perhaps willing to pay 5k a year more for some nebulous benefit. I'm not being disingenuous. I wouldn't pay that much for a UI when there are actual social issues in Ireland that could benefit in real terms from such spending. Removing a line on a map between two EU member states is simply not as important to me as having a world class health service or whatever. It's actually a sh!tty thing that you did there Francie. You are trying in a not so subtle way to make out that I don't give a sh!t about fellow citizens. I do, but my priorities are different to yours.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Well the reality is, you don't care about some citizens,- once the money goes so high. What other opinion am I supposed to have here? I know you are probably gonna tell me that you care first about x, y, z, but it doesn't negate the fact that you are casting aside some.
downcow wrote: » How would people feel about an independent NI being helped by both UK and ROI? You get Britain out of Ireland and it doesn't cost you as much - a win win
