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Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

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FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

But it seems the bully boys were allowed to win on O'connel street

The march was organised by somebody who claimed that Loyalists should 'not have been locked up for what they did'.
Organisers had said before the march that they could not guarantee that there would not be pictures of a loyalist alleged to have bombed Dublin and Monaghan with the collusion of the British Army paraded triumphantly as had been done at previous FAIR marches.

Are these the type of parades you want to have in a UI?

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They had a right to march TBF
That was a riot. They weren't given a permit.
Also it went on to include looting which had nothing to do with the parade by that point.

No that right was not upheld. The guards asked them to get onto buses to travel to the Dail because the bully boys were blocking their route

downcow

endainoz wrote: »

If it's a little more complex please explain. Adams admitted what now?

its explained here
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/drumcree-was-no-accident-recollection-1-6438948

downcow

endainoz wrote: »

Oh and are you suggesting Neo Nazis should parade in Jewish areas because they have a right to?

No, I think you will find i am asking the question. Francie etc says everyone will be treated equally. I'm looking some clarification what that means

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Its a bit simplistic.
Do you mean eg that if one group can parade down a street then every group can?
are you saying that irish language is equal to polish?
Do you mean the rights of the unborn baby are equal to the rights of the mother (or father)
I honestly have no idea what that statement means. In fact I would contend that it really means nothing

I understand that you don't understand it.

You are equal to everyone else on the island. If you can motivate a majority to change a law or the national language you are free to do so.
You seem to think that when a majority vote for a UI on both sides of the border that we immediately have to alter the wishes of that majority to specifically accomodate unionism.

That really isn't going to happen. It will be a democratic republic where the majority opinion rules and which will also protect the rights of minorities. Much like this state protects the rights of the minority traveller community or gay community.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The march was organised by somebody who claimed that Loyalists should 'not have been locked up for what they did'.
Organisers had said before the march that they could not guarantee that there would not be pictures of a loyalist alleged to have bombed Dublin and Monaghan with the collusion of the British Army paraded triumphantly as had been done at previous FAIR marches.

Are these the type of parades you want to have in a UI?

I have no idea Francie what you are talking about. This was a march to bt=ring attention to the victims of the IRA. Not something i would have attended but every bit as legitimate as eg a bloody sunday parade

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I understand that you don't understand it.

You are equal to everyone else on the island. If you can motivate a majority to change a law or the national language you are free to do so.
You seem to think that when a majority vote for a UI on both sides of the border that we immediately have to alter the wishes of that majority to specifically accomodate unionism.

That really isn't going to happen. It will be a democratic republic where the majority opinion rules and which will also protect the rights of minorities. Much like this state protects the rights of the minority traveller community or gay community.

Thats fine Francie. Thats why my preference (and the majority in the North) is to do all we can to stay out of a UI.
Mind you you are clearly in a minority on here. most posters seem to be open to accommodating and respecting diversity. But you have every right to propose majority rule

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

its explained here
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/drumcree-was-no-accident-recollection-1-6438948

What is wrong with that? The march was wrong, and they 'agitated' to have it stopped.
Social 'agitation' is not a bad thing, it is how most things get changed. Same sex marraige came about because of years of deliberate social agitation.

endainoz

downcow wrote:

its explained here

What a fantastic balanced unbiased news outlet you have there! It also explains nothing, a few throwaway quotes that doesn't go on to say how this was actually done.

And before you say it, I'm not a mad Sinn Fein supporter. I actually don't agree with much of their policies.

But at the same time, I think it's always necessary to call out unionists on their hypocrisy.

I'm sure moderate unionists are grand as are moderate nationalists, those are the ones who will ultimately move forward.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have no idea Francie what you are talking about. This was a march to bt=ring attention to the victims of the IRA. Not something i would have attended but every bit as legitimate as eg a bloody sunday parade

Of course you have no idea because you seem to only hear what you want to hear and believe in myths.

It is all out there on google. That is what these people led by Willie Frazer were up to previous to the Love Ulster march.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Thats fine Francie. Thats why my preference (and the majority in the North) is to do all we can to stay out of a UI.
Mind you you are clearly in a minority on here. most posters seem to be open to accommodating and respecting diversity. But you have every right to propose majority rule

You do know the UK operates in the same way. Majority rule - that is why Theresa May had to give the DUP a bung to keep her in power.

The refinement a republic brings (a proper inclusive republic) to that of a constitutional monarchy is to protect it's minorities as well, through legislation and law. A 40 year bloody conflict is not required or should not be required to bring about power sharing and parity of esteem.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course you have no idea because you seem to only hear what you want to hear and believe in myths.

It is all out there on google. That is what these people led by Willie Frazer were up to previous to the Love Ulster march.

I am no supporter of Willie Frazer, but i have been showed around South Armagh by him.
Don't be so quick to judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins. Willie had 7 members of his family murdered in south armagh and had a lifetime of sectarianism directed at him from being forced to sing the sash and then being thrown in a thorn hedge while on his way home from primary school.
I actually think he has every right to be angry. I think it is sad and wish he could move on. I have had a SF councillor in his office listening to his story. It was not an easy listen for the SF guy, but fair play to him for having the balls to come with me and fair play to Willie for engaging with him.
I don't see why you feel its ok to demonise him but not the Bloody sunday families. What is the difference? ...and you slate him for saying something positive about Billy Wright but you don't have an issue about a Bloody Sunday family member saying positive stuff about Martin Magennis.
If only life was as black and white as you would like to make it

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I don't see why you feel its ok to demonise him but not the Bloody sunday families.

If Republicans were seeking to march around London playing IRA/Rebel tunes under the pretence of seeking justice for the victims of Bloody Sunday I'm confident the families would distance themselves from it.

Let's not fool ourselves into thinking the Love Ulster parade was anything other than a big wind-up festival.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If Republicans were seeking to march around London playing IRA/Rebel tunes under the pretence of seeking justice for the victims of Bloody Sunday I'm confident the families would distance themselves from it.

Let's not fool ourselves into thinking the Love Ulster parade was anything other than a big wind-up festival.

I am not disagreeing entirely with you. But sometimes you should remember that all actions come from feelings and that community was feeling screwed over by everyone, by the release of prisoners under gfa, the letters of comfort to IRA, the fact those who murdered some of their people were sitting in Stormont on big salaries, the blocking of their parades, the rewriting of the conflict, the decimation of their border community etc etc - any wonder they thought they would wind people up with a parade through dublin??

downcow

This has gone off thread so i feel i need to stop responding until we are back on thread

Avatar MIA

downcow wrote: »

I am no supporter...

I do have sympathy for the likes of Willie and those with direct family impact. He has good reason to be very bitter.

With that said his bitterness filters out to all non unionists. Every Taig is either a terrorist or a terrorist in the making. His grief has turned to poison, letting his tormentors to continually have a hold over him. A very religious person would, in this instance, turn the other cheek and let the hold the terrorists on him dissipate. Easier said than done though.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am no supporter of Willie Frazer, but i have been showed around South Armagh by him.
Don't be so quick to judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins. Willie had 7 members of his family murdered in south armagh and had a lifetime of sectarianism directed at him from being forced to sing the sash and then being thrown in a thorn hedge while on his way home from primary school.
I actually think he has every right to be angry. I think it is sad and wish he could move on. I have had a SF councillor in his office listening to his story. It was not an easy listen for the SF guy, but fair play to him for having the balls to come with me and fair play to Willie for engaging with him.
I don't see why you feel its ok to demonise him but not the Bloody sunday families. What is the difference?
If only life was as black and white as you would like to make it

Willie had 5 members of his family killed. All members of the security forces.

Willie does not have the right to do what he likes, antagonise who he likes, regardless of what happened in his family. There are thousands of victims of the conflict/war still living with what happened.
Parading a picture of the man who allegedly bombed Dublin through the streets of Dublin is not condonable, no matter who does it. Claiming sadistic loyalist sectarian killers should not be doing jail for what they did is also not supportable.
But you don't seem to have a problem with that.

Willie Frazer is open about his belief that the loyalist paramilitaries were a necessary part of the war against the IRA. During a protest against the release of republican prisoners as part of the Good Friday agreement, he was asked about loyalist prisoners. "They should never have been locked up in the first place," he replied.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This has gone off thread so i feel i need to stop responding until we are back on thread

If a majority vote for a UI in both jurisdictions, what is Unionism willing to do to make it work? You have said you are a democrat and would accept the vote.

What concessions/accommodations would you be willing to make?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are thousands of victims of the conflict/war still living with what happened.
Parading a picture of the man who allegedly bombed Dublin through the streets of Dublin is not condonable, no matter who does it. Claiming sadistic loyalist sectarian killers should not be doing jail for what they did is also not supportable.
But you don't seem to have a problem with that.

I have no idea what you are talking about re pictures carried through dublin.
I do believe in justice but i also believe in moving on if possible.

I am curious do you draw a distinction between sadistic loyalist sectarian killers and sadistic republican sectarian killers ie the UVF and the IRA?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If a majority vote for a UI in both jurisdictions, what is Unionism willing to do to make it work? You have said you are a democrat and would accept the vote.

What concessions/accommodations would you be willing to make?

I could give a pants answer like you and say i believe in equality but i went a lot further with concrete suggestions and am awaiting some from you

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

I could give a pants answer like you and say i believe in equality but i went a lot further with concrete suggestions and am awaiting some from you

Perhaps I missed it, what suggestions did you make regarding the concessions that Unionists should make to respect the result and ensure a UI works?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have no idea what you are talking about re pictures carried through dublin.
I do believe in justice but i also believe in moving on if possible.

I am curious do you draw a distinction between sadistic loyalist sectarian killers and sadistic republican sectarian killers ie the UVF and the IRA?

No, sectarian killing was always wrong and should never be supported/condoned or handwaved away.

*On previous marches FAIR paraded pictures of one of the alleged bombers of Dublin and Monaghan as a hero and when asked would they do it in Dublin, would not rule it out.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I could give a pants answer like you and say i believe in equality but i went a lot further with concrete suggestions and am awaiting some from you

I explained to you when you asked what a society 'where everyone is equal' was and even gave you an example of one. I also further explained what a proper republic was.
But you ignored that too and are now trying to evade answering.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, sectarian killing was always wrong and should never be supported/condoned or handwaved away.

*On previous marches FAIR paraded pictures of one of the alleged bombers of Dublin and Monaghan as a hero and when asked would they do it in Dublin, would not rule it out.

Would you have some evidence of this. I am surprised if FAIR done what you are accusing them of

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Would you have some evidence of this. I am surprised if FAIR done what you are accusing them of

An example of this alleged attitude is the previous displaying of the picture of an Ulster Volunteer Force member who was allegedly involved, among others, in the murder of 26 people in Dublin in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, and who was himself killed by the Provisional IRA in 1976. His picture had appeared at FAIR rallies and an organiser of the Love Ulster demonstration previously told a republican newspaper that he would not guarantee that images of the murder suspect would not be displayed during the demonstration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots

Frazer is well known for claiming the alleged bomber was a hero.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am no supporter of Willie Frazer, but i have been showed around South Armagh by him.
Don't be so quick to judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins. Willie had 7 members of his family murdered in south armagh and had a lifetime of sectarianism directed at him from being forced to sing the sash and then being thrown in a thorn hedge while on his way home from primary school.
I actually think he has every right to be angry. I think it is sad and wish he could move on. I have had a SF councillor in his office listening to his story. It was not an easy listen for the SF guy, but fair play to him for having the balls to come with me and fair play to Willie for engaging with him.
I don't see why you feel its ok to demonise him but not the Bloody sunday families. What is the difference? ...and you slate him for saying something positive about Billy Wright but you don't have an issue about a Bloody Sunday family member saying positive stuff about Martin Magennis.
If only life was as black and white as you would like to make it

£800,000 of EU funding was withdrawn from his organisation for some reason! As well as that, at the Smithwick Tribunal, a Garda claimed that he was a member of the Red Hand Commando.

I don't think your Willie is as innocent as you are claiming him to be.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

£800,000 of EU funding was withdrawn from his organisation for some reason! As well as that, at the Smithwick Tribunal, a Garda claimed that he was a member of the Red Hand Commando.

I don't think your Willie is as innocent as you are claiming him to be.

You may want to make 2+2=5 but i honestly have no idea if he had connections to a paramilitary group. A very significant percentage of the population up here did. I have not heard that accusation before. Stormont and our council chambers are full of people who belonged to paramilitary organisations - so what is your point? Do you have a problem with people who had a history being involved in community leadership? Or just protestant ones?

And maybe you would point out where i ever claimed Willie was innocent????.

You are just making up nonsense to suit

endainoz

I think this argument is a bit worn a this point. From what I gather Unionists are showing little interest in compromising for the sake of a UI. Time to move on to convincing people on the fence with the idea. Maybe they will be more willing to compromise.

I'd love to see it happen some day, I won't hide that. Whatever happens, violence can't return, and if a border poll is needed to stop that from happening again, maybe people will make the right decision.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You may want to make 2+2=5 but i honestly have no idea if he had connections to a paramilitary group. A very significant percentage of the population up here did.

I have not heard that accusation before. Stormont and our council chambers are full of people who belonged to paramilitary organisations - so what is your point?

Well, its a bit cheeky of a paramilitary to be pointing the finger at the actions of other paramilitaries! Kettle. Pot. Black.

Do you have a problem with people who had a history being involved in community leadership? Or just protestant ones?
And maybe you would point out where i ever claimed Willie was innocent????.

You are just making up nonsense to suit

From what I understand, there are plenty of community leaders with fairly dubious backgrounds from both sides. I don't really want any of them claiming to be victim though.

800K of EU funding was withdrawn in 2010 from Willie organisation. Doesn't look good that such a neutral organisation would withdraw such funding for lack of accountability. Did you know about that?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-11307108

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You may want to make 2+2=5 but i honestly have no idea if he had connections to a paramilitary group. A very significant percentage of the population up here did. I have not heard that accusation before. Stormont and our council chambers are full of people who belonged to paramilitary organisations - so what is your point? Do you have a problem with people who had a history being involved in community leadership? Or just protestant ones?

And maybe you would point out where i ever claimed Willie was innocent????.

You are just making up nonsense to suit

Those three words again 'I had no idea'.

Willie Frazer has been connected with loyalist paramilitaries several times.