Imreoir2 wrote: » You are assuming something to be true while making no atempt to prove that it is and ignoring evidence that shows that it is not.
downcow wrote: » Ok fair enough. I want to give honest consideration to what you are saying. It seems absurd to me but I will give it consideration and try and respond tomorrow. So as I am not wasting my time would it be fair to say that if the guards etc did not reasonably reflect the makeup of the population then there was probably underlying systemic discrimination rather than just chance at work?
downcow wrote: » Well I was surprised to see desrimination is still alive and well https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/protestant-teacher-wins-discrimination-case-in-republic-of-ireland-28571280.html
There is however a counter-argument that says Protestants in fact are the ones that have rejected wider Irish society, by forming hermetically-sealed sporting and cultural clubs and preserving denominational admissions policies in Schools and Nursing Homes. In 2002, the UCD Sociologist Professor Stephen Mennell, described Southern Protestants as a ‘Bubbled Community’. One permutation of this is a lack of political and civic engagement. For example only 0.25% of members of the Church of Ireland belong to the Gardai and members of Defence Forces, compared to the national average which is 1%. 1.44% of the Church of Ireland are involved in central or local Government, compared to a national average of 2.97%. Indeed, in his Diocesan Synod Address in October 2013, the Archbishop of Dublin, Most Rev Dr Michael Jackson said, “Sectarianism itself is alive and well not least in the Church of Ireland community. There is a deeply dug-in antagonism to difference on the part of those who trumpet pluralism”.
oscarBravo wrote: » So you're rowing back on your offensive sweeping generalisation? That's a start, I suppose.
downcow wrote: » Could you give me a few examples of how catholics were discriminated against in NI
downcow wrote: » Absolutely. I agree again with you. That is undeniable. It was also unacceptable. Most unionists up north don’t deny that there was discrimination. It was a painful journey to come to that acceptance. Many in roi have that journey in front of them to understand why so many people felt they needed to leave roi
Johnny Dogs wrote: » Why did you want a few examples of something you were already aware of can I ask?
downcow wrote: » You asked for more comprehensive evidence that shows sectarianism at the heart of institutions in ROI. I cannot work my way through every institution but let's start with a very timely one, since the Six Nations is currently on. IRFU provides for unionists of the North a good example of how they would be treated in an all Ireland setting. There is zero recognition of Unionist/british culture. They continue to insist on playing the Irish national anthem no matter how it offends many of the team members - Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen. of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing. Would you accept this as a fairly clear example of the Unionist community being discriminated against by an institution??
Dytalus wrote: » Amhrán na bhFiann is only ever played when the Irish Rugby team is playing in Ireland (ie, the Republic in case there's any confusion). It is also then joined by Ireland's Call. Whenever they are playing overseas, Ireland's Call is played by itself. Call was specifically commissioned so that there would be an all-island anthem to be played at international games after Unionist complaints about Amhrán na bhFiann - since for the vast majority of the IRFU's history up until then we had gone without any anthem at all, which was a marked contrast to other nations."Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen" Source please. From the time of partition until the 1930s, there was no anthem sung at matches. The IRFU flag and Amhrán na bhFiann were only played at games within what was then the Irish Free State, and God Save the Queen was sung at matches in Belfast. Games played elsewhere went without an anthem. Including our only away game in the 1991 world cup. The flag of the IRFU does not incorporate the flag of the Republic, but rather the four provincial flags - including the red hand of Ulster which I understand unionists have taken to quite warmly. Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation. "of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing." Source please. This is an awful assumption to make of both parties. It's easy to make a claim when the very evidence of that claim cannot be brought forward because people "keep their heads down".
downcow wrote: » I accept your point and I’ll have to consider shifting my thinking based on it. But perception is really important. Many people don’t realise that Protestant working class housing was just as bad as catholics and jobs were hard to come by for most. Yes I accept prods got some scraps that catholics didn’t and that was wrong. But roi needs to be mature enough to realise Protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country as well Maybe next generation will get it
downcow wrote: » Quite simple. Every example i give is poo pooed (as evidenced above) so I thought if you showed me how you evidence discrimination in the north then i will be able to give you similar examples for the south. Does that seem reasonable?
ancapailldorcha wrote: » That's hogwash. I grew up in a Protestant household and was raised Protestant. Some light ripping at school was the height of it.
I am unsure if you are serious with this comment or are just trying to get a rise out of me. You must know that most Unionists are not warm to the yellow prvincial flag and that the 'red hand of ulster flag' is red and white with a crown on it and often a union flag in the corner' I guess i am just telling you what you already know very well
downcow wrote: » This is littered with inaccuracies"Seems the IRFU has made plenty of strides to accomodate the NI members of the team in the history of the organisation." Are you absolutely unable to see the inequality in this statement. If IRFU, after agreeing to play their games in both Belfast and Dublin, had decided to only play them in Belfast and play GSTQ and then when nationalist got annoyed decided they would play an extra wee tune to keep them happy - would you say IRFU had done lots to accommodate Southern nationalists?
downcow wrote: » I will rephrase that. I was not implying 'all' protestants. but it is undeniable that 'many' protestants had a very hard station in their catholic country
jm08 wrote: » Here is a list of discriminations against catholics in NI including housing discrimination, lower pay and employment opportunities for catholics. I don't have the reference here, but I recall reading somewhere that in 1920 Haarland and Wolff sacked all its catholic workers.http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcse/history/catholic-discrimination-in-northern-ireland-in-terms-of-housing-and-employment.html I come from an area in the midlands where the town would have had a large British military presence and many of the people would be decendents of planted families. In the town when I was growing up, all the largest houses were owned and lived in by protestants. Their occupations were doctors, bank managers, accountants, solicitors and grocery, hardware store owners. In the countryside, they owned medium to large farms. I can only think of two what I would call working class protestants (brother and sister who had a small bit of land and worked for some of the local protestant farmers). At that stage, they kept very much to themselves with their own primary school and generally the children going away to boarding school for their education (like Wesley or Kilkenny College). In my secondary school, I can only recall a couple of children from Quaker families. The townie children of these protestants all became accountants, doctors, solicitors etc who got jobs in the mainly large accountancy, stockbrokers, solicitor firms in Dublin. I know someone who is now about 70 who was the first catholic to get a job in one of the very large Dublin accountancy firms in the 70s. The point that I'm trying to make here is that protestants were mainly well healed in the south and were not attracted to jobs in the Guards, civil service etc. Martin Manseragh, one of the most high profile protestant civil servant (because of his involvement in the peace process), joined the civil service as a university graduate, and not as a regular pen pusher.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Why is it "Undeniable"? The Orange Lodges even march at Rossnowlagh beach to commemorate the 12th July.
downcow wrote: » Do you remember what happened when Protestants took a peaceful march to Dublin City a few years ago - Need i say more about the intolerance of Unionist viewshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/26/northernireland.ireland
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Actually yes. That's just one example and you're conflating the Orange Order with Unionism. Many Unionists aren't in the Orange Order and it by no means represents Unionists. It is an organisation which has promoted bigotry, division and conflict since it was founded.
Deleted User wrote: » When the British state stops subsidising the small remnant of its state in Ireland, a huge, huge number of realities will hit home to the greatest supporters of that rule. The day of that enormous subvention being tolerated by people in post-Brexit Britain (England and Wales?) are without doubt nearing their end. Combined with a growing Catholic population, an increasing number of progressive Protestants who share not only an Irish identity but a European identity and see the huge practical economic and social value of remaining in the EU. I don't think most Irish people who discuss NI are really aware of the demographic shift, as opposed to having a vague notion about it. See the table 'The religious affiliations in the different age bands in the 2011 census were as follows' where there are now more Catholics than Protestants at every age bracket under 39. The usual trite "not every Catholic is a nationalist" is really just head-in-the-sand stuff now when the post-Brexit reality is added:Demographic change in Northern Ireland 2011 Census (blue=Catholic; red = Protestant):
downcow wrote: » Yes, my point also - where did all the working class prods go. We know there we some middle class prods doing very nicely - i am not disputing that
jm08 wrote: » If it is as you claim it is, why did the British Government accept its EU pension liability without a protest?
downcow wrote: » The stuff I find incredible is that when the numbers in various institutions like the Guards in ROI lack unionist representation you actually blame unionists for that - of course when the same situations happens up north you blame the institution.
When a Protestant takes a case against your educate system and demonstrates discrimination, you turn that around to show how effective your equality laws are - of course when the same happens up north again you use that to demonstrate clear discrimination.
You asked for more comprehensive evidence that shows sectarianism at the heart of institutions in ROI. I cannot work my way through every institution but let's start with a very timely one, since the Six Nations is currently on. IRFU provides for unionists of the North a good example of how they would be treated in an all Ireland setting. There is zero recognition of Unionist/british culture. They continue to insist on playing the Irish national anthem no matter how it offends many of the team members - Even though there was a clear commitment made at unification of the teams that this would not happen. of course many middle-class unionists have done exactly what some middle class Catholics done up north, and their Protestant counterparts done down south, ie keep their heads down, hold their noses, and say nothing. Would you accept this as a fairly clear example of the Unionist community being discriminated against by an institution??
blanch152 wrote: » This reminds me of the sectarian poster produced by a Sinn Fein candidate in the last Assembly elections about the numbers of Catholics versus the number of Protestants. There is nothing more sectarian than reducing the issue of what the North should like like down to a headcount based on religious belief.
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