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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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eagerv

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The M365 was good. For my fast ass it struggled a little bit in terms of speed etc and I get bored quickly so I flogged it......

Our office was supposed to close in town and I would have little use, now they have renewed the lease for another 12 months at least so I would use it now:p

I'm trying, or not, to picture what is a fast ass?:D:D

Shefwedfan

antodeco wrote: »

Can I ask why you didnt go for the Kugoo? I have it a while and no problems. I have replaced the rear wheel with a pneumatic tyre, so I have front and rear suspension, and a rear pneumatic tyre, so fairly comfortable.

For those who do have an eScooter, have you managed to park them anywhere in town? Do you use bike racks or anything?

Havent had a chance to order.....that was about it

antodeco

Shefwedfan wrote: »

...I did have M365 but moved it on, was going to buy the Kagoo but didnt in end
l

Can I ask why you didnt go for the Kugoo? I have it a while and no problems. I have replaced the rear wheel with a pneumatic tyre, so I have front and rear suspension, and a rear pneumatic tyre, so fairly comfortable.

For those who do have an eScooter, have you managed to park them anywhere in town? Do you use bike racks or anything?

Shefwedfan

eagerv wrote: »

How did you like the 365?

I'm waiting for the weather to improve a bit before taking the plunge, from what I hear the M365is one of the best apart from the risk of punctures. But would prefer to solid tyres.

Perhaps the new Pro would be better on hills, but wouldn't like to be breaking the law being over 250 Watts:pac::D

The M365 was good. For my fast ass it struggled a little bit in terms of speed etc and I get bored quickly so I flogged it......

Our office was supposed to close in town and I would have little use, now they have renewed the lease for another 12 months at least so I would use it now:p

loyatemu

cojomo2 wrote: »

No different to e bikes.

there's no real checking of eBikes, I've seen quite a few people obviously using bikes with "throttles" (which I assume are chipped too).

Is it a major problem? Possibly not but if someone gets hit by one there will probably be some sort of clampdown.

cojomo2

antodeco wrote: »

The challenge with this is how are they meant to test this?

No different to e bikes.

antodeco

cojomo2 wrote: »

DCC clarifies that they are not calling for a ban on all electric scooters, just ones that are MPVs, which according to them means ones with a motor over 250w and/or exceed 25kph.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-city-council-scooter-ban-15918402.amp

The challenge with this is how are they meant to test this?

eagerv

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok, after another batch of "is this legal or not" I am back in market...

I did have M365 but moved it on, was going to buy the Kagoo but didnt in end

What is current best in that price range? stil the M365? or new model

How did you like the 365?

I'm waiting for the weather to improve a bit before taking the plunge, from what I hear the M365is one of the best apart from the risk of punctures. But would prefer to solid tyres.

Perhaps the new Pro would be better on hills, but wouldn't like to be breaking the law being over 250 Watts:pac::D

Shefwedfan

Ok, after another batch of "is this legal or not" I am back in market...

I did have M365 but moved it on, was going to buy the Kagoo but didnt in end

What is current best in that price range? stil the M365? or new model

beauf

Due to lack of enforcement you'd be unlikely to be stopped anyway.

prinzeugen

beauf wrote: »

I think we are ok for rocket powered skateboards

Nice 1

Think we discussed jet power before. All OK as far as I can tell! Reaction engine and no mechanical link from the engine to the wheels..

prinzeugen

bk wrote: »

(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

would seem to cover standup escooters.

They would come under "Pedestrian controlled MPVs" in Irish law. Still a MPV!

bk wrote: »

Ah, here is the statutory instrument bringing the above EU Regulation into Irish law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

In fairness to the EU, this does much more clearly define what an ebike, etc. are. Though it is still a little wishy washy about escooters. I think it does cover them, but not as clearly and definitively as ebikes. I suspect they will need further clarification from the EU and I suspect that is why the various legal folk are all over the place on this at the moment and don't want to legislate on it, in case the EU goes a different way on it in future.

That regulation covers the issue of certificates of conformity. Every new vehicle needs one before it can be registered for the road.

It does not make a vehicle legal EU wide however. Thats up to the member states domestic laws.

For example, some quads are road legal and you can use them on the road once taxed etc.

But in Ireland you cannot. They are impossible to register for road use even although they have EU type approval and are common in other EU countries.

Another misunderstanding is that once a e-scooter is under a certain Kw its OK.

Thats not the case. It could have 1Kw power but if it is capable of propelling you using the motor alone, its a MPV under current Irish Law and must be registered, taxed etc.

cojomo2

DCC clarifies that they are not calling for a ban on all electric scooters, just ones that are MPVs, which according to them means ones with a motor over 250w and/or exceed 25kph.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-city-council-scooter-ban-15918402.amp

ted1

bk wrote: »

Ah, here is the statutory instrument bringing the above EU Regulation into Irish law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

In fairness to the EU, this does much more clearly define what an ebike, etc. are. Though it is still a little wishy washy about escooters. I think it does cover them, but not as clearly and definitively as ebikes. I suspect they will need further clarification from the EU and I suspect that is why the various legal folk are all over the place on this at the moment and don't want to legislate on it, in case the EU goes a different way on it in future.

European law is based on the spirit of the law
Irish law are based on the letter of the law

beauf wrote: »

I think we are ok for rocket powered skateboards

Nice 1

Well strictly speaking a skateboard doesn't have a seat, so......

beauf

I think we are ok for rocket powered skateboards

Nice 1

Ah, here is the statutory instrument bringing the above EU Regulation into Irish law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

In fairness to the EU, this does much more clearly define what an ebike, etc. are. Though it is still a little wishy washy about escooters. I think it does cover them, but not as clearly and definitively as ebikes. I suspect they will need further clarification from the EU and I suspect that is why the various legal folk are all over the place on this at the moment and don't want to legislate on it, in case the EU goes a different way on it in future.

beauf wrote: »

The intent of the legislation is that once you stop pedaling the eBike stops. But who ever writes legislation cant do it in English.

As far as I can tell, ebikes where never actually written into the Irish legislation.

They are covered by EU directives, but the RTA doesn't seem to make any mention of that Directive. I suspect ebikes aren't included as MPV's simply because they aren't "propelled" by mechanical means, so were never MPV's to start with.

Interestingly from what I can tell, the EU regulation that specifically excludes ebikes, also already excludes escooters:

REGULATION (EU) No 168/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

of 15 January 2013

on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:
..........

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

...

(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

would seem to cover standup escooters.

beauf

The intent of the legislation is that once you stop pedaling the eBike stops. But who ever writes legislation cant do it in English.

beauf

Maybe one of these...

https://youtu.be/6GIf2C8xbxQ

Well that is exactly what the legislation says.

BTW I think they realise their is a massive hole in the legislation. It looks like it needs to be carefully revamped to take into account all sorts of new vehicles.

beauf

Here's one starting....

https://youtu.be/DvkBKkgYIGc

Perfect for the cycle lanes....

beauf

ted1 wrote: »

So if I can push start a car it no longer is an MOV?

Basically if you make anything in your shed and push to start it, they want it to be legal. Rocket powered soap kart here we go...

ted1

bk wrote: »

Do they not have a throttle?

Also aren't they specifically listed in the Road Traffic Act?

The question is can those bikes possibly started and propelled forward with no use of human movement? If they can, then yes, they are a MPV.

If you can stand on an escooter while stopped and start it moving by just pressing a button/throttle, then yes, it is an MPV.

However if you stand on it and there is no way for it to move. You have to propel it forward with your foot a few times, then no, it isn't a MPV.

Note, IANAL, but that is my reading of the legislation and that seems to be the official view, given the comments that have appeared in the papers, etc. in the last few weeks.

Here is a statement from the Garda Press office:

So if I can push start a car it no longer is an MOV?

beauf

No the bicycles with petrol motors (all the ones I have seen) have to be physically cycled to start.

All of them and the scooters have throttles. I don't see what that has to got to do with it. Many have cruise control.

So they are all the same as regards legislation.

So if the scooters are legal with push to start then also will the bicycles with engines also be. The arguments are the same for both vehicles.

beauf wrote: »

.. The bicycles with petrol motors are push to start....

Do they not have a throttle?

Also aren't they specifically listed in the Road Traffic Act?

The question is can those bikes possibly started and propelled forward with no use of human movement? If they can, then yes, they are a MPV.

If you can stand on an escooter while stopped and start it moving by just pressing a button/throttle, then yes, it is an MPV.

However if you stand on it and there is no way for it to move. You have to propel it forward with your foot a few times, then no, it isn't a MPV.

Note, IANAL, but that is my reading of the legislation and that seems to be the official view, given the comments that have appeared in the papers, etc. in the last few weeks.

Here is a statement from the Garda Press office:

“this office understands is whether they are powered solely by an electric or mechanical means or assisted, i.e. using human power to initiate movement”.

beauf

bk wrote: »

....
Of course there are some of them that are MPV's, but not the push to start ones.

.. The bicycles with petrol motors are push to start....

ongarite

andydurnin wrote: »

Where's the best place to buy a xiaomi m365 scooter that's around €400. Tried on gearbest and ordered got cancelled after 3 months of waiting.

Amazon Spain for €370, sold by Amazon.
Euro version with 2 spare tubes.
https://www.amazon.es/gp/offer-listing/B077QHRLPB/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all

beauf wrote: »

Interesting how its phrased to make it even less clear...

.. and the actually legislation ignored. They just rely on what someone else said rather than actually looking up the legislation or how its dealt with in other countries.

propel
verb: drive or push something forwards.
propel; 3rd person present: propels; past tense: propelled; past participle: propelled; gerund or present participle: propelling; adjective: -propelled drive or push something forwards. "the boat is propelled by using a very long paddle"
synonyms: push/move forwards, move, set in motion, get moving, drive More

I think they have come to realise that many of these DO NOT fall under the definition of MPV.

The fact that you "propel" these forward using the human body means that they aren't MPV's.

Of course there are some of them that are MPV's, but not the push to start ones.

beauf

Interesting how its phrased to make it even less clear...

...using human power to initiated movement...

.. and the actually legislation ignored. They just rely on what someone else said rather than actually looking up the legislation or how its dealt with in other countries.