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Russian interference in EU

listermint

So another fairly explosive story of Russian interference in EU elections.yet again with a far right party and funding. This time in Italy.

Perhaps this story will grow more legs. But it's evident that the EU will have to start mobilising centrally to combat this through intelligence and resourcing.

This is similar to brexit but we've yet to uncover the extent of dark money to senior Tory leaders.

http://m.espresso.repubblica.it/inchieste/2019/02/20/news/esclusivo-lega-milioni-russia-1.331835

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murphaph

I suspect with some digging the same would be discovered in Hungary, possibly in every country in the EU. The USSR, sorry Russia wants us neutered. We stand or fall together as Europeans. The UK have been massively hoodwinked so the Kremlin will feel buoyed and think it can control every country in this manner.

listermint

Story is finally being picked up. This stuff is serious.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1098936801690116096?s=20

James Brown

I don't feel they need be so nefarious. Many Russian oil men, including those affiliated with Putin run their money through Ireland and these 'financial' institutions are on a low tax. I don't think they need interfere with Ireland anyway.

murphaph

Putin wants to defeat an enemy he could not defeat during the soviet era. He's proper old school KGB. It pisses him off that this runt of a place on his doorstep (the EU), tiny in comparison to his huge "empire" is economically dominant. This wasn't how things were supposed to end for this guy. The oligarchs get to keep their fortunes at his pleasure. They do what he says.

RDM_83 again

listermint wrote: »

So another fairly explosive story of Russian interference in EU elections.yet again with a far right party and funding. This time in Italy.

Perhaps this story will grow more legs. But it's evident that the EU will have to start mobilising centrally to combat this through intelligence and resourcing.

This is similar to brexit but we've yet to uncover the extent of dark money to senior Tory leaders.

http://m.espresso.repubblica.it/inchieste/2019/02/20/news/esclusivo-lega-milioni-russia-1.331835

Translate via Google translate in browser if needed

Ok so looking at this it looks terrible.
Lets break it down a little though.

3 Million payed in Italy from a foreign billionaire to influence a country of 60 million, thats a threat to democracy in Europe is the stance, Yes?

That works out at 0.05 euro per capita.

137,000 payed out by a foreign billionaire to influence politics in Ireland, population 4.7 million.

That works out at 0.029 euro per capita.

Thats 58% of the Italian figure, so its less but not greatly so.

The Irish figure relates to Soros backed funding (See SIPO ruling that was overturned relating to Amnesty)

One of these is viewed as a crackpot far right conspiracy, the other is viewed by more establishment type posters as a dire threat to democracy that requires harsh and unified action.

This will be unpopular (wish the politics cafe still had some life

) but I don't get why as an particularly as an Irish person one is viewed as basically ok considering the payments are on the same scale of impact unless its simply partisanship in terms of liberal Billionaire good, Russian bad?

fly_agaric

listermint wrote: »

So another fairly explosive story of Russian interference in EU elections.yet again with a far right party and funding. This time in Italy.

It is not that surprising. He has been an admirer of Putin for a long time.

(edit: it is quite weird that all of these far right "saviour of the nation"/patriot people in various EU countries seem to have a some might say treasonous love of Russia and Putin!)

I vaguely remember there was some stunt when Salvini was MEP when he wore a tshirt with Putin's face printed on it to the parliament (!) [think it was around time of sanctions on Russia being discussed due to Ukraine invasion?, found some Russia Today and Sputnik links about it but won't post them in case some poor soul clicks it by accident].

johnnyskeleton

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This will be unpopular (wish the politics cafe still had some life ) but I don't get why as an particularly as an Irish person one is viewed as basically ok considering the payments are on the same scale of impact unless its simply partisanship in terms of liberal Billionaire good, Russian bad?

I think the key difference is that the person in receipt of the funds is the PM. If the Taoiseach was being paid by Soros then it would be much more worrying.

But ultimatley youre right that all foreign money paid into domestic politics should be monitored closely and scrutinised, regardless of wherher their interests and yours allign

Franz Von Peppercorn

The whole Russian thing is a form of neo McCarthyism. It’s all very Cold War, except it was at least partly true then - communist parties, and others, were taking money from the Soviet Union.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The whole Russian thing is a form of neo McCarthyism. It’s all very Cold War, except it was at least partly true then - communist parties, and others, were taking money from the Soviet Union.

Yeah, but now it's the right wingers who've joined in at the trough.

Franz Von Peppercorn

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, but now it's the right wingers who've joined in at the trough.

Theres just a moral panic is all. It allows people who oppose Brexit or the rise of nationalism in the EU to not examine their own preconceived notions nor to look at the systemic forces that cause these phenomena. The destruction of Libya has destabilised Italy as has the introduction of the Euro there. The problem though, is with the Russians.

The refugee crisis cause by US interference in Syria has also destabilised Eastern Europe but the problem is Russia.

The destruction of industry in the U.K. and globalism is general was in part responsible for Brexit, similar forces in the US cause Trump. The problem is Russia.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Theres just a moral panic is all. It allows people who oppose Brexit or the rise of nationalism in the EU to not examine their own preconceived notions nor to look at the systemic forces that cause these phenomena. The destruction of Libya has destabilised Italy as has the introduction of the Euro there. The problem though, is with the Russians.

The refugee crisis cause by US interference in Syria has also destabilised Eastern Europe but the problem is Russia.

The destruction of industry in the U.K. and globalism is general was in part responsible for Brexit, similar forces in the US cause Trump. The problem is Russia.

No it doesn't. They wouldn't be able to influence if there was nothing to influence. Only the terminally obtuse would think in such simplistic terms. And that goes both ways.

Ultros

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The whole Russian thing is a form of neo McCarthyism. It’s all very Cold War, except it was at least partly true then - communist parties, and others, were taking money from the Soviet Union.

True, it only came to light because a certain someone lost a certain election. Now it looks like it's been totally overblown despite 3 years of media hype.

Everyone hacks everyone and everyone tries to influence foreign elections. States like Russia are no worse than the US or China when it comes to this type of thing. I think Russia is a totalitarian state obviously but a bit of perspective is badly needed.

Gatling

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Theres just a moral panic is all.

The refugee crisis cause by US interference in Syria has also destabilised Eastern Europe

Unfortunately that's not true at all ,

Italy has been on shakey ground financially for years add they have being dealing with mass migration from Africa and other states long before Syria ,
Syria let's blame everyone but Assad family and his minority who inflicted horrendous levels of violence against his own population including mass murder including "Chemical weapons " against men , women and children just because they had enough of his autocratic bs , remind us who's also complicit in the deaths along with Assad and his family would his name happen to be Vladimir ,
Eastern Europe has been destabilised by russia seeking to return to the good old Berlin wall days and the oppression of 70 million Eastern Europeans who didn't then and don't now want to live under russian jackboots,

But let's remember it's Vladimir who's the victim in all of this he just wants Ukraine and any other sovereign state he can bully or annex back under Kremlin control

prawnsambo

Ultros wrote: »

True, it only came to light because a certain someone lost a certain election. Now it looks like it's been totally overblown despite 3 years of media hype.

Everyone hacks everyone and everyone tries to influence foreign elections. States like Russia are no worse than the US or China when it comes to this type of thing. I think Russia is a totalitarian state obviously but a bit of perspective is badly needed.

Sweeping statement masquerading as fact. If you have such evidence, you need to pass it on to the relevant authorities.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not true at all ,

Italy has been on shakey ground financially for years add they have being dealing with mass migration from Africa and other states long before Syria ,

Libya, not Syria. And that’s not true, the collapse of Libya is what caused the recent crisis.

http://www.msnbc.com/specials/migrant-crisis/libya

Syria let's blame everyone but Assad family and his minority who inflicted horrendous levels of violence against his own population including mass murder including "Chemical weapons " against men , women and children just because they had enough of his autocratic bs , remind us who's also complicit in the deaths along with Assad and his family would his name happen to be Vladimir ,

Assad is no doubt a bad dictator. So is the King of Saudi, committing genocide in Yemen and supported by the US. When I was talking about destabilisation I was referring to the refugee crisis. With Assad back in power that has largely stopped, the refugees are in fact going home. The US backed destabilisation of Syria caused the crisis and that crisis caused the rise of nationalism in Europe. Again though, Russian influence is blamed.

Eastern Europe has been destabilised by russia seeking to return to the good old Berlin wall days and the oppression of 70 million Eastern Europeans who didn't then and don't now want to live under russian jackboots,

Russia hasn’t invaded Eastern Europe, and isn’t threatening to. In fact people blame Russia for promoting nationalism in Poland and Hungary, but those nationalists are anti-Russian, as well as being anti immigration or anti Islamic.

But let's remember it's Vladimir who's the victim in all of this he just wants Ukraine and any other sovereign state he can bully or annex back under Kremlin control

At worst putin wants parts of the Ukraine and that’s all. The idea that he’s a military threat to all of Europe is a fantasy. The US is a threat to the Middle East, and thus to Europe.

Franz Von Peppercorn

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sweeping statement masquerading as fact. If you have such evidence, you need to pass it on to the relevant authorities.

Who do we report the US meddling in Venezuela to? The UN, is it?

Elmer Blooker

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sweeping statement masquerading as fact. If you have such evidence, you need to pass it on to the relevant authorities.

Not unusual for this thread it appears. Look at this!!

Eastern Europe has been destabilised by russia seeking to return to the good old Berlin wall days and the oppression of 70 million Eastern Europeans who didn't then and don't now want to live under russian jackboots,

Are there really people out there who believe that we are going to have an East and West Berlin again? :pac: conspiracy theory forum

>

The Italian Government are not happy about the economic sanctions against Russia as it has cost their economy billions and are therefore becoming 'difficult'. The timing of these 'interference' stories from 'investigative journalists' come as no surprise to me.

sameoldname

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Are there really people out there who believe that we are going to have an East and West Berlin again? :pac: conspiracy theory forum
>

5 years ago I'm sure most on here would have agreed with you but then Russia decided to annex a sizable chunk of the Ukraine. That kind of stuff tends to get peoples backs up.

And while the EU have been busy dealing with Brexit and right-wing populists there's not much time for a coordinated response to dealing with Russia. Which is convenient for the Russians to say the least.

Franz Von Peppercorn

sameoldname wrote: »

5 years ago I'm sure most on here would have agreed with you but then Russia decided to annex a sizable chunk of the Ukraine. That kind of stuff tends to get peoples backs up.

And while the EU have been busy dealing with Brexit and right-wing populists there's not much time for a coordinated response to dealing with Russia. Which is convenient for the Russians to say the least.

The invasion of Ukraine is a fairly regional issue. If your backs are got up with that imagine if they had tried overthrown Libya and Assad (in a world where Assad and Gaddafi was pro western). After previously invading Iraq and aftghanistan.

Russia is a minor regional power, the US is a world hegmon or empire. Neither are working in Europe’s interests.

sameoldname

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The invasion of Ukraine is a fairly regional issue. If your backs are got up with that imagine if they had tried overthrown Libya and Assad (in a world where Assad and Gaddafi was pro western). After previously invading Iraq and aftghanistan.

Russia is a minor regional power, the US is a world hegmon or empire. Neither are working in Europe’s interests.

What does bringing up US activities in the middle east have to do with anything?

Getting back to the point though... Do you think Russia would have done what they did in Crimea if the Ukraine had been part of either the EU or NATO? Both of which institutions have been under attack by various actors with suspected links to Russia.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Who do we report the US meddling in Venezuela to? The UN, is it?

"Everyone" is not a sweeping statement?

WinnyThePoo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Who do we report the US meddling in Venezuela to? The UN, is it?

"Everyone" is not a sweeping statement?

I see the 'whatabout' is in full flow
This thread is about Russian interference.

Franz Von Peppercorn

sameoldname wrote: »

What does bringing up US activities in the middle east have to do with anything?

Getting back to the point though... Do you think Russia would have done what they did in Crimea if the Ukraine had been part of either the EU or NATO? Both of which institutions have been under attack by various actors with suspected links to Russia.

The latter is what you have yet to prove. Saying it isn’t proving it.

I mentioned the US because if you are concerned by Russian actions in the east then the actions of a much greater non European power closer to western europe is evidentially more important. I did originally say that the rise of nationalism in Europe has little to do with Russia but is in response to US belligerence in Syria and Libya. Hence the relevance.

If It’s true that were the EU or NATO to include crimea then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded, which makes the worry about their threat to the rest of Europe even more fantastical.

The EU is under threat from the failure of the post Cold War order, post 9/11 US belligerence in its neighbourhood, from a badly drawn up single currency without a fiscal backup, from a hatred of European culture driven by American ideologies, and from an ill thought experiment in globalisation and multiculturalism. Having a political class flailing around blaming Russia for its own mistakes is as farcical as it is funny. To reinterpret Marx: History repeats itself the first time as tragedy, the first time as farce.

Russia occasionally tweets some stuff, that’s all of what we know.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The EU is under threat from the failure of the post Cold War order, post 9/11 US belligerence in its neighbourhood, from a badly drawn up single currency without a fiscal backup, from a hatred of European culture driven by American ideologies, and from an ill thought experiment in globalisation and multiculturalism. Having a political class flailing around blaming Russia for its own mistakes is as farcical as it is funny. To reinterpret Marx: History repeats itself the first time as tragedy, the first time as farce.

Russia occasionally tweets some stuff, that’s all of what we know.

Nobody's blaming Russia for their own mistakes. The fact that Russia has hacked and attempted to hack numerous different EU organisations and infrastructure as well as assassinating people in EU countries is well established. You don't wave your hands around saying it's all our fault really and allow them unfettered access to wreak havoc whenever they want.

So there was the attempted hack of the OPCW in the Netherlands, the attempted murder of the Skripals, the attempted coup in Montenegro and of course involvement in the Ukraine and the shooting down of MH17. It's a good deal more than a few tweets.

sameoldname

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The latter is what you have yet to prove. Saying it isn’t proving it.

I mentioned the US because if you are concerned by Russian actions in the east then the actions of a much greater non European power closer to western europe is evidentially more important. I did originally say that the rise of nationalism in Europe has little to do with Russia but is in response to US belligerence in Syria and Libya. Hence the relevance.

The Russians are fully engaged in military activities in that part of the world as are the Saudi's, UK, France and the US along with others. I'm not sure why we should be just focusing on the American actions there? I'm not going to defend American foreign policy but I'm not going to accept the entire of the migrant crisis being blamed on them either.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

If It’s true that were the EU or NATO to include crimea then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded, which makes the worry about their threat to the rest of Europe even more fantastical.

So you're saying that if EU and NATO membership had prevented Russian aggression that the idea of those institutions being dismantled from the inside shouldn't be a concern for us?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The EU is under threat from the failure of the post Cold War order, post 9/11 US belligerence in its neighbourhood, from a badly drawn up single currency without a fiscal backup, from a hatred of European culture driven by American ideologies, and from an ill thought experiment in globalisation and multiculturalism. Having a political class flailing around blaming Russia for its own mistakes is as farcical as it is funny. To reinterpret Marx: History repeats itself the first time as tragedy, the first time as farce.

Russia occasionally tweets some stuff, that’s all of what we know.

Globalisation has benefited us, Spain, and Eastern European countries massively! If you can point to me a demographic in any EU nation which has reduced in income since joining the EU I'd be genuinely surprised.

You also mentioned the Euro. Isn't funny that the countries in the Eurozone who had sane financial policies before the Euro seemed to continue in that tradition afterwards while the ones that did not, did not. Also, the drop in Sterling has shown that just devaluing your currency doesn't mean that you will actually remain competitive. There are far more factors than that.

As for Marx, do you not think maybe playing a game of "blame the foreigner" nonsense would fall under the same repeating history mantra? And be honest, that's what most of these political parties are playing on.

Gatling

sameoldname wrote: »

The Russians are fully engaged in military activities in that part of the world as are the Saudi's, UK, France and the US along with others. I'm not sure why we should be just focusing on the American actions there?

As for Marx, do you not think maybe playing a game of "blame the foreigner" nonsense would fall under the same repeating history mantra? And be honest, that's what most of these political parties are playing on.

Because Russia good America evil thats why.

Assad butchered his own population because his population decided they didn't want his autocratic minority rule even after multiple chemical weapons attacks , bombing markets , hospitals ,schools ,
The assputin regime are standing up to the man,
Shoot down a civilian airliner that's ok russia invaded Ukraine to stop right wing groups (utter nonsense) but it's often repeated in these threads , along with NATO surrounding the whole of Russia preparing to invade despite the ignoring the facts prove otherwise .
The balkans states and the Nordic countries are actively being interfered and threatened on a regular basis too

McGiver

Gatling wrote:

Assad butchered his own population because his population decided they didn't want his autocratic minority rule even after multiple chemical weapons attacks , bombing markets , hospitals ,schools , The assputin regime are standing up to the man, Shoot down a civilian airliner that's ok russia invaded Ukraine to stop right wing groups (utter nonsense) but it's often repeated in these threads , along with NATO surrounding the whole of Russia preparing to invade despite the ignoring the facts prove otherwise . The balkans states and the Nordic countries are actively being interfered and threatened on a regular basis too

Did you mean the Baltic states? Their existence is directly endangered by the Russian aggressive government policies. Very happy to be in the EU and NATO. If they weren't they would have ended up as the Ukraine - either directly annexed or thrown into the civil war under the pretext of "protecting the Russian citizens". They all have sizeable Russian minorities imported into their countries by the Soviet Union (ie Kremlin).

Exactly the same method of using the pretext of "protecting the fellow countrymen" is being used in Ukraine and in fact was used by Hitler to de facto initiate WW2 by using Czechoslovak Germans to threaten the Western powers into ceding the territory to Nazi German.

eire4

McGiver wrote: »

Did you mean the Baltic states? Their existence is directly endangered by the Russian aggressive government policies. Very happy to be in the EU and NATO. If they weren't they would have ended up as the Ukraine - either directly annexed or thrown into the civil war under the pretext of "protecting the Russian citizens". They all have sizeable Russian minorities imported into their countries by the Soviet Union (ie Kremlin).

Exactly the same method of using the pretext of "protecting the fellow countrymen" is being used in Ukraine and in fact was used by Hitler to de facto initiate WW2 by using Czechoslovak Germans to threaten the Western powers into ceding the territory to Nazi German.

You make a good point about the Baltic countries being members of the EU and NATO. No doubt in my opinion that is the key reason why they have not been openly attacked by Russia up to now in contrast to what we have seen with regard to Ukraine.

McGiver

eire4 wrote:

You make a good point about the Baltic countries being members of the EU and NATO. No doubt in my opinion that is the key reason why they have not been openly attacked by Russia up to now in contrast to what we have seen with regard to Ukraine.

Spot on - that's actually the only reason they didn't end up the same way. That applies to the whole Central and Eastern Europe region, in fact, at least for those who are both EU and NATO members. Compare that with the Serbia where the Russian influence is way higher than in CEE. And the only reason for this is that it is not possible a EU and NATO member.

That of course doesn't stop Kremlin to the run disinformation campaign i.e. Information War in the CEE. It's extremely strong there, Kremlin also supports all kind of nutters, populist, quasi fascis and quasi nazi parties to destabilise the political situation and democracy in these countries to weaken their alignment and commitment to the EU and NATO.

eire4

McGiver wrote: »

Spot on - that's actually the only reason they didn't end up the same way. That applies to the whole Central and Eastern Europe region, in fact, at least for those who are both EU and NATO members. Compare that with the Serbia where the Russian influence is way higher than in CEE. And the only reason for this is that it is not possible a EU and NATO member.

That of course doesn't stop Kremlin to the run disinformation campaign i.e. Information War in the CEE. It's extremely strong there, Kremlin also supports all kind of nutters, populist, quasi fascis and quasi nazi parties to destabilise the political situation and democracy in these countries to weaken their alignment and commitment to the EU and NATO.

I would agree with that and the contrast you point out with Serbia bears out the fact that Russia will not at least yet openly attack EU/NATO countries although as you rightly state they do everything else in their power behind the scenes to sow discord with social media campaigns support far right parties etc.