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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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who_me

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

True
Should have pulled the plug went it went back to design.

If I'm not mistaken, they went back to O'Callaghan Properties (the other tenderers for the event centre) and they no longer had any interest. I don't know if they'll be able to immediately restart it now...

Then again, this is (at least) the second attempt to get the event centre built - it was a condition of the Mahon Point development that it include an event centre, which never transpired either. (Was that also OCP?)

Markcheese

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't know why they went to all of the effort to submit the planning in October only to then balk at the relatively smaller job of providing additional information. Something has turned BAM off this in the interim.

Yeah, money..
They're in a win win situation here... And holding all the cards, they started off in a partnership with Heineken, bought out the entire site, have developed everything but the event centre part, (and set a planning precedent for that height and density on that site)
If they can squeeze more out of the government for the event centre and also stick loads of commercial office space on as well, while loosing the "landmark" building look and cost, then more profit...
If the government eventually baulk, then can stick in whatever, probably more densely than they would have originally got... More money
So delay, delay....

Rhys Essien

Simon Coventry on the radio while ago saying we should see movement over the next few months. Also with Bam building a hotel across the water from the Event Centre, isn't it in their interest to drive on with it in order to fill the hotel. They only make sense together.

CHealy

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Simon Coventry on the radio while ago saying we should see movement over the next few months. Also with Bam building a hotel across the water from the Event Centre, isn't it in their interest to drive on with it in order to fill the hotel. They only make sense together.

No event center = no hotel. Simple as that.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Simon Coventry on the radio while ago saying we should see movement over the next few months. Also with Bam building a hotel across the water from the Event Centre, isn't it in their interest to drive on with it in order to fill the hotel. They only make sense together.

BAM would hardly be running the hotel so once it's built and they get their money, they're gone.

At this stage, I wouldn't be surprised if the events centre is delayed again and again until it's just outright cancelled... It's disappointing to say the least.

who_me

Several of the proposed hotel developments (and there are a lot now) may be dependent on the Event Centre being built. If that doesn't get built, there's a hell of a knock-on from it.

At this stage, I'm not sure if there's any easy solution. If BAM/Live Nation get the public money they want, people will be outraged at their repeated incompetence (or chicanery) being rewarded with more money. If they don't get it, the Event Centre doesn't get built, and we probably just see more student apartments on the proposed site (preventing it ever being built there any time in the future).

leahyl

Imagine how amazing an events centre would be if they had just gone with the docklands proposal. Why they went with the beamish site is just mind boggling.

AugustusMinimus

leahyl wrote: »

Imagine how amazing an events centre would be if they had just gone with the docklands proposal. Why they went with the beamish site is just mind boggling.

Off the top of my head

1. Beamish site is right beside Washington Street where all the pubs are.
2. Having it on Albert Quay besides the N27 would have ground the city to a halt when there would be any concert. It’s the main north south artery for traffic movement in the city.

I don’t see any reason by the way why building it at that location would be more realistic. It would still have suffered from economic feasibility issues.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Simon Coventry on the radio while ago saying we should see movement over the next few months.

So he's saying what he said a few months ago. A spoofer.

who_me

munstermagic11 wrote: »

So he's saying what he said a few months ago. A spoofer.

"When I said it's going to be built next month, I meant it's going to be built next month. You really DON'T have to remind me every year..."

- Not actually Simon Coveney, but close.

BazzFan123

Does anyone have an update on The Prism?

Markcheese

leahyl wrote: »

Imagine how amazing an events centre would be if they had just gone with the docklands proposal. Why they went with the beamish site is just mind boggling.

How well did O'Callaghan properties go with building the event centre that they contracted to build down in the Docklands....? Must have been about 2001...

leahyl

Markcheese wrote: »

How well did O'Callaghan properties go with building the event centre that they contracted to build down in the Docklands....? Must have been about 2001...

I didn’t even know that they had contracted to build down there. All I’m saying is I think it would be a better location.

Rhys Essien

BazzFan123 wrote: »

Does anyone have an update on The Prism?

Decision due in the next few weeks. The developers were in town last week so hopefully that’s a good sign.

AugustusMinimus

leahyl wrote: »

I didn’t even know that they had contracted to build down there. All I’m saying is I think it would be a better location.

Why?

leahyl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why?

Why do I need to give a reason??? It’s an opinion

If you must know, I think there’s a lot more room down there instead of smack bang in the middle of the city centre where it would be an absolute nightmare for traffic anytime there is an event on. Someone mentioned it being a nightmare for traffic along Albert Quay if it was down the docklands - I’ve been to plenty of events at the marquee and don’t recall the traffic being overly busy, no more so than usual anyway - it’s always busy there at peak times. I don’t think traffic can be avoided anyway either way, but I think that it’s a much better location down the docklands with a lot more space to play around with. I would just prefer the docklands for a building like this. Of course the Beamish site sounds good because it’s “near all the pubs” but to me it just looks like it would be extremely cramped there.

AugustusMinimus

leahyl wrote: »

Why do I need to give a reason??? It’s an opinion

You don’t have to but it would be pretty strange to hold an opinion without any reasoning.

leahyl wrote: »

If you must know, I think there’s a lot more room down there instead of smack bang in the middle of the city centre where it would be an absolute nightmare for traffic anytime there is an event on.

South Main Street is smack bang in the middle of the city centre where car usage is actively being discouraged. With increased public transport this would be perfect. It is also within walking distance of anywhere in the city centre. With the Patrick Street car ban probably being expanded I don’t think this will have much of an effect.

leahyl wrote: »

Someone mentioned it being a nightmare for traffic along Albert Quay if it was down the docklands - I’ve been to plenty of events at the marquee and don’t recall the traffic being overly busy, no more so than usual anyway - it’s always busy there at peak times

The Marquee is less than half the size of the proposed events centre and is located a mile away from the previously proposed location on Albert Quay. Have we learned anything from Mahon Point? Don’t put big big development right beside key arterial routes especially right on key junction. The junction of N27 / Albert Quay / Albert Road is crucial for north south traffic movements in the city and will be the gateway to the entire docklands. It must be protected from congestion as much as possible.

leahyl wrote: »

I don’t think traffic can be avoided anyway either way, but I think that it’s a much better location down the docklands with a lot more space to play around with. I would just prefer the docklands for a building like this. Of course the Beamish site sounds good because it’s “near all the pubs” but to me it just looks like it would be extremely cramped there.

The event centre will be built in an Amphitheatre style and is primarily being built for entertainment purposes. Building it in the central business district makes no sense to me. Given there will be very little open floor spCe due to the design, I’m not sure it will hAve a huge amount of business usage. It certainly won’t be used for trade shows and expos in its current design.

The only thing the location had going for it was proximity to the train station. However, the Besmish location is no more than a 20 min walk from the train station.

leahyl

Fine, you have your opinion, I have mine.

I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the Beamish site is not ideal. Many people have felt this way from the beginning.

Just one question, since when is the Docklands the Central Business District? Thought that was South Mall. Is the Docklands meant to be the new business district??

AugustusMinimus

leahyl wrote: »

Fine, you have your opinion, I have mine.

I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that the Beamish site is not ideal. Many people have felt this way from the beginning.

Just one question, since when is the Docklands the Central Business District? Thought that was South Mall. Is the Docklands meant to be the new business district??

Albert Quay and Lapps Quay will probably have more office space than the South Mall once the Nav Square development is completed. It will only continue to grow.

leahyl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The area around Albert Quay has more office space than the South Mall combined at this stage and is only growing more and more.

So is it the new business district??

AugustusMinimus

leahyl wrote: »

So is it the new business district??

Considering the South Mall continues into Lapps Quay I suspect it’s the same thing.

leahyl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Considering the South Mall continues into Lapps Quay I suspect it’s the same thing.

South Mall and Lapps Quay are on the opposite side of the river and nearer the city centre....just because there are two new office blocks near the docklands doesn't make it the CBD surely? I thought a lot of the plans for the docklands were for accommodation anyway, not more offices, or maybe I'm wrong. I'm not completely up on everything that's happening at the moment, there's so much!

mire

leahyl wrote: »

Why do I need to give a reason??? It’s an opinion

If you must know, I think there’s a lot more room down there instead of smack bang in the middle of the city centre where it would be an absolute nightmare for traffic anytime there is an event on. Someone mentioned it being a nightmare for traffic along Albert Quay if it was down the docklands - I’ve been to plenty of events at the marquee and don’t recall the traffic being overly busy, no more so than usual anyway - it’s always busy there at peak times. I don’t think traffic can be avoided anyway either way, but I think that it’s a much better location down the docklands with a lot more space to play around with. I would just prefer the docklands for a building like this. Of course the Beamish site sounds good because it’s “near all the pubs” but to me it just looks like it would be extremely cramped there.

To me, Docklands would be my second best preferred location, and I get your logic. However the south main street site will have much more positive impact in terms of regeneration, spinoff and foot fall. When the state is subsidizing a major project like this, it should be located where has maximum impact. In my view locating the event centre in the Docklands would mean that the city centre may not benefit enough. These things should be positioned to take advantage of the high levels of foot fall and sometimes that means shoe horning them into difficult locations – in order to capture economic benefit. I think that the issue of vehicular access should be way down the order of priority. Congestion is part and parcel of having big events in a city.

leahyl

mire wrote: »

To me, Docklands would be my second best preferred location, and I get your logic. However the south main street site will have much more positive impact in terms of regeneration, spinoff and foot fall. When the state is subsidizing a major project like this, it should be located where has maximum impact. In my view locating the event centre in the Docklands would mean that the city centre may not benefit enough. These things should be positioned to take advantage of the high levels of foot fall and sometimes that means shoe horning them into difficult locations – in order to capture economic benefit. I think that the issue of vehicular access should be way down the order of priority. Congestion is part and parcel of having big events in a city.

Thanks, I can see your point there alright but I guess my point about the traffic is that people are going to drive as near as possible to these places regardless, to drop people off, (Cork people like their cars!!) so unless they block off all surrounding roads to private traffic, then it will be extremely congested. Now maybe I'm wrong and people will all take buses to come into town for an event. The roads around the beamish site are so narrow. I don't know, I guess it's all about changing the mindset about driving into the city centre too and people are so opposed to this with the Patrick Street ban already so...

I would still pick somewhere on the Docklands though. I didn't realise that the original proposal for the Docklands was right across from the idle hour. I thought it was further down the docklands. I wouldn't think there would be best either but definitely further down.

j8wk2feszrnpao

For major events, the area around the center would be closed off. Traffic is a non issue.

timmyjimmy

mire wrote: »

To me, Docklands would be my second best preferred location, and I get your logic. However the south main street site will have much more positive impact in terms of regeneration, spinoff and foot fall. When the state is subsidizing a major project like this, it should be located where has maximum impact. In my view locating the event centre in the Docklands would mean that the city centre may not benefit enough. These things should be positioned to take advantage of the high levels of foot fall and sometimes that means shoe horning them into difficult locations – in order to capture economic benefit. I think that the issue of vehicular access should be way down the order of priority. Congestion is part and parcel of having big events in a city.

Footfall being the operative word here, you'd be better off walking to the events centre than driving into the city centre. Traffic will be horrible with all the extra cars coming into the city centre for events. At least if it were in the docklands, you would have easy access to the south link and lower glanmire road leading to quicker entry/exit of events if you are travelling from the rest of Munster or further afield. Coming into the city centre might put people off coming to events if traffic is a nightmare.

AugustusMinimus

munstermagic11 wrote: »

For major events, the area around the center would be closed off. Traffic is a non issue.

You couldn’t block traffic on Albert Quay as the city would just grind to a halt. Whatever about further down in the docklands, the Albert Quay location would have been a disaster.

AugustusMinimus

timmyjimmy wrote: »

Footfall being the operative word here, you'd be better off walking to the events centre than driving into the city centre. Traffic will be horrible with all the extra cars coming into the city centre for events. At least if it were in the docklands, you would have easy access to the south link and lower glanmire road leading to quicker entry/exit of events if you are travelling from the rest of Munster or further afield. Coming into the city centre might put people off coming to events if traffic is a nightmare.

I think the opposite. It would just encourage people to drive to the event increasing traffic levels.

timmyjimmy

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I think the opposite. It would just encourage people to drive to the event increasing traffic levels.

Unfortunately in this country we are a car dependant nation. The events centre (if it does happen) will encourage people to come to Cork city. The majority of these will drive, it's not like we've a public transport system up to scratch. It would be far easier if all the extra cars could park closer to the docklands than say park in town. The docklands is closer to the south link leading to quicker entry/exit.
Think Pairc Ui Chaoimh when a match is on, not everyone wants to hanging around the city, they come for the event and get out when it's finished. I know PUC has a far bigger capacity but it's just an example of what people do when a daytime event is on.

hans aus dtschl

timmyjimmy wrote: »

Think Pairc Ui Chaoimh when a match is on, not everyone wants to hanging around the city, they come for the event and get out when it's finished. I know PUC has a far bigger capacity but it's just an example of what people do when a daytime event is on.

That's literally what they don't want. That's of limited use to anyone. If that was the purpose of the building: to enrich a promoter and allow people to see the acts near where they live, then I'd be totally against any public money being spent on it whatsoever. The idea is to boost incomes in the city by getting people to stay, eat and drink.

They do not want what you're describing. At all.