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Child Item

Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

autumnbelle

Just watching the programme her sister and mother are so dignified. How have the school not given them answers? Tragic

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nice_guy80

Schools are governed by data protection.
And it would be the trustee who would be sued in any case like that. ie the diocese

He was a coward.
Not prepared to face up to his own actions and then to take the life of 4 innocent family members.
Crazy

Who has info on this?
INTO? Teaching Council? Tusla? Gardai?

Gimme A Pound

wingsof daun wrote: »

We should not let our emotions control our thoughts on this terrible event. It should be blatantly obvious that mental illness was the complete driving force here. I highly doubt if it was a woman who done the same thing to her family there would be the same hatred directed towards her. In this twisted modern world, a woman would get more consolation and less hatred if it were her that resorted to murder of her family. It is so easy nowadays to target men, and in America it's a racial hatred of white men that seems to be all too common.

Ah here, the guy killed his whole family and left other family members and friends destroyed - it's that which is causing the rage towards him, not that he was a white man.

That said, if it were a woman, while there would still be a lot of hatred towards her, I agree there would be more of an attempt to understand why.

Plus, saying he wasn't mentally ill - how do people know this? One person said he wasn't depressed, he was crazy. Is crazy not mentally ill? He could very well have been mentally ill - who of sound mind would do that? I think people are insisting he wasn't mentally ill because of two reasons: they feel it exonerates him somewhat, and that it's an insult to others with mental illness.

It doesn't exonerate him in the least - he, and only he, still did it. And mental illness has a huge scale - there are people who do horrific things brought on by severe mental illness. The rest of those who have mental illnesses are nothing to do with them obviously.

Can't see what the significance is of him wanting to buy a bridesmaid's dress either. And a grown man watching porn - so what?

(unless it was consuming his life).

Mad_maxx

A monster, if he was shamed about school, he could have hopped on a plane to far away

tretorn

political analyst wrote: »

It's already out - he was caught "pleasuring himself" and watching porn on a computer at the school.

It's possible that data protection law prevents the authorities from releasing information about Alan Hawe without permission from his parents and brothers.

If this is true then are the school authorities liable for not installing security on the schools PC. Surely the Department of Education should have its equipment securely protected so it cant be easily by passed.

Has the information that he was caught masturbating come out officially, I dont think it was published at the Inquest. Even if he hadnt been caught masturbating which is gross on the premises of a primary school surely accessing porn would be a sackable offence too.
Pity he didnt just do away with himself.

topper75

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Mental illness like this, can be so hard to spot in your average everyday person.

Society does not want to acknowledge that we have people like Alan Hawe in our communities, silently suffering and struggling to keep themselves from going over the edge.

There is a deep outrage even at the suggestion that this was mental illness. But why is that? Whatever condition Alan Hawe was clearly suffering from, should be no direct reflection on any other unrelated mental illness... there are many different types, and thankfully most people suffering from mental illness will never do what this man sadly did.

But the longer society tries to brush these types of mental illness under the carpet as some simplistic "act of evil".... the longer it will take to find solutions and help prevent the next Alan Hawe!

Simply labelling someone as "evil" does nothing to help the situation (even if that is perhaps a natural human emotional reaction to this tragedy). This sort of line of thinking, is more suited to back in the bad old days of catholic Ireland... where we had "good" and "evil"... and everything else was dismissed as nonsense!

You hear references to rose-tinted glasses. Today grey-tinted glasses are worn by many.

Insisting on seeing grey in a black and white situation is actually nonsense.
If brutally wiping his own family doesn't meet the 'evil' notch on the bar I just don't know! And 'Roman Catholic' - really? Such a silly red herring here.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

wingsof daun wrote: »

We should not let our emotions control our thoughts on this terrible event. It should be blatantly obvious that mental illness was the complete driving force here. I highly doubt if it was a woman who done the same thing to her family there would be the same hatred directed towards her. In this twisted modern world, a woman would get more consolation and less hatred if it were her that resorted to murder of her family. It is so easy nowadays to target men, and in America it's a racial hatred of white men that seems to be all too common.

Please. When Catherine Nevin died a year ago, nobody was making excuses for her. It was a general “Ding dong, the witch is dead” attitude. And it reminded me of when her trial was going on. Public sympathy was not on her side. I never remember anyone mentioning anything about mental illness.

Mrsmum

We all see the world from our perspective and so imo he saw himself as a very big fish. Like a huge fish. The fact that he was in a very small pond doesn't matter. To him that pond was his world. Therefore his impending fall from grace from being a respected pillar of that community to some kind of pervert would be a very big deal to him. I think he reacted to that threat to his position like a cornered rat.

Now the thing about porn. It's a funny thing because watching porn is fairly normal but because it's also a secret activity, it's often spoken about in a way to make it appear more shocking than it might be. For example I know many women seeking advice on parenting forums that they caught their partner watching porn and are very distressed and the replies will support that there is cause for that distress as in saying "my partner would never do that". Yeah right. The point I'm making really is that it's easy to blow the porn watching out of all proportion. However the fact that he was getting counselling for it, when most people watching it every night wouldn't dream of that, might show that he was quite hard on himself. That he has rigid notions as regards right and proper behaviour, notions that he couldn't live up to. Also if he was wearing ladies underwear and masturbating at work suggests he had a side that I would think was very much in conflict with his good conscience kind of thing. So it seems to me that he was not a man at peace with himself, easy in his skin but a man pretending to be 'good' when he felt 'bad'. He was likely rigid as regards the behaviour of his family also, as in his little pond, their behaviour would be a reflection on him, therefore a domineering husband and strict father.

I think why he killed them all was due to exposure. Imo he himself could not cope with that exposure but the tragedy was that he put his own feelings on them as if they were a package deal. I think he assumed for them that they couldn't cope either. That's back to the importance he placed on himself as the head of that family. Without him their lives would not be worth living or perhaps he reckoned their living with the shame would be too much. I think they died because of his overbearing sense of his own importance. But we're all guessing really because how do you figure out such a diabolical act.

[Deleted User]

freshpopcorn wrote: »

She said since his death she became aware he was wearing Clodaghs underwear and she said that Clodagh in her wildest dreams would have thought of that.

They said that they found this out after the inquest, which seems a bit strange. How could they have found out after the inquest?

If it mentioned in his note, surely they would have found out at the inquest?

Not excusing what he did in any way, but I'm wondering if he had a closet gay thing going on? I know cross dressing does not equal gay, but perhaps there were some deeply repressed issues coming out?

tretorn

He picked up a hatchet and murdered his defenceless wife with it. He was a very goid hand ball player in his youth so would have been strong enough to over power Clodagh easily, why use a hatchet and a knife, to me this meant rage. He was a monster, there is no other word for such evil and counselling is never going to help her mother and sister recover. He took their lives too.

retro:electro

tretorn wrote: »

He picked up a hatchet and murdered his defenceless wife with it. He was a very goid hand ball player in his youth so would have been strong enough to over power Clodagh easily, why use a hatchet and a knife, to me this meant rage. He was a monster, there is no other word for such evil and counselling is never going to help her mother and sister recover. He took their lives too.

Like her sister said, he killed her like he hated her. An absolute monster. What makes me sad is the fact she was looking up holidays on the computer at the time, blissfully unaware about what was about to happen as she projects herself into the images in front of her of people sunning themselves and laughing.
What a coward he was. And I’m also happy that there was no references to him being a “GAA man” and “a pillar of the community”, more shlte that flooded the media in the aftermath, as if that makes any difference. He was a calculated, controlling and abusive bully who was so up his own fcuking arse he thought his family couldn’t manage without him. He should have killed himself only and done them a favour.

shenanagans

Hoboo wrote: »

Finally an intelligent and informed post. Kudos.

Unfortunately the masses really don't understand the complexities of mental health and the diverse and vast range of illnesses, symptoms and outcomes.

How a GP is meant to simply spot depression without the patient discussing it is beyond me. He could have been going to the GP for years for anything, and pretending to be fine.

I think the family would be better served receiving counselling themselves, not sure they'll get any kind of closure otherwise.

If he was mentally ill those 4 people had no chance. But I seriously believe they would be alive today if that animal hadn't been caught doing whatever he was doing in school.

Shame, embarrassment, control, weakness were what caused their deaths not mental health (depression).

Mrsmum

retro:electro wrote: »

Like her sister said, he killed her like he hated her. An absolute monster. What makes me sad is the fact she was looking up holidays on the computer at the time, blissfully unaware about what was about to happen as she projects herself into the images in front of her of people sunning themselves and laughing.
What a coward he was. And I’m also happy that there was no references to him being a “GAA man” and “a pillar of the community”, more shlte that flooded the media in the aftermath, as if that makes any difference. He was a calculated, controlling and abusive bully who was so up his own fcuking arse he thought his family couldn’t manage without him. He should have killed himself only and done them a favour.

I don't think he hated her. I think he didn't see her as important at all, which is more insulting actually.

Yes, 2nd bolded just about sums it up.

retro:electro

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't think he hated her. I think he didn't see her as important at all, which is more insulting actually.

Yes, 2nd bolded just about sums it up.

Probably didn’t word it properly. Her sister said he killed her in a manner that was unnecessarily brutal and over the top, like he hated her, when there was nothing to suggest he hated his family to such a degree that he’d want to inflict that on them. If he wanted to wipe them out, I guess there are more humane ways of doing it. Also the fact this wasn’t just a spur of the moment panicked killing, he had been sitting on it for weeks, planning, plotting. He had come to terms with what he was about to do and seemed perfectly comfortable with such a brutal act. It doesn’t get more pre-medicated than what he did. Evil.

Mrsmum

Regarding the mum and sister, really and truly every single detail should be made available to them as they are the victims now. I don't understand who it serves (besides him but he's a murderer and anyway is dead) to keep stuff from them, even if only so they would not perhaps fill a vacuum by concentrating on the wrong details. It mist be insufferable for them to feel there is details of the story of their loved ones deaths that they are being kept in the dark about.

shenanagans

The details should be made available to Clodaghs family privately at least to save his family further distress. At least they would have answers.

I feel for his parents/family who lost 3 beautiful grandsons and their daughter in law. They too are equal victims.

JMNolan

Mrsmum wrote: »

Regarding the mum and sister, really and truly every single detail should be made available to them as they are the victims now. I don't understand who it serves (besides him but he's a murderer and anyway is dead) to keep stuff from them, even if only so they would not perhaps fill a vacuum by concentrating on the wrong details. It mist be insufferable for them to feel there is details of the story of their loved ones deaths that they are being kept in the dark about.

In my dealings with the state there are two reasons why they keep information from people

Cover up/protect themselves from scrutiny or legal action
Blind bureaucracy

eviltwin

tretorn wrote: »

He picked up a hatchet and murdered his defenceless wife with it. He was a very goid hand ball player in his youth so would have been strong enough to over power Clodagh easily, why use a hatchet and a knife, to me this meant rage. He was a monster, there is no other word for such evil and counselling is never going to help her mother and sister recover. He took their lives too.

He also had the presence of mind to write a note alerting whoever arrived at the house to not come in. That doesn't strike me as the actions of someone who just flipped out.

[Deleted User]

It's human nature to try to make sense of a tragedy like this.
Clodaghs family are searching for an answer they will never get. They will never find out why he did it, because there isn't a reason why. There is no justification & no way to figure it out.
So, yes they want details they assume are there that they don't have, they won't answer the question though.
He committed unbelievably selfish, violent & heartbreaking murders, the only answer to 'why' is in his head.
I feel terribly sorry for her family, & his, they lost everything too, I hope they are all receiving the counselling & help they need.

tretorn

They arent teceiving the help they need, that is why they did the public interview.
They had to wait eighteen months to see the suicide note even though it was written for their eyes mainly. That note should have been given to the family on the day of the murders.
They still dont know what happened on the school premises, everyone one who had a child in the school needs to know what was going on and not just the Coll family.
All the schoolchildren were at risk too, he was a wslking time bomb and probably should have been in a mental hospital setting and not voluntarily attending a counsellor. A fully trained phychiatrist might have suspected he was a serious threat.
If Clodagh had known he was masturbating in school, quite possibly in front of the children he taught she may have left, it apoears she wasnt filled in so his reputation therefore wasnt damaged and she therefore couldnt pritect her beautiful family.

[Deleted User]

I was referring to the help they need to come to terms with what happened & try to live their lives afterwards.

retro:electro

bubblypop wrote: »

It's human nature to try to make sense of a tragedy like this.
Clodaghs family are searching for an answer they will never get. They will never find out why he did it, because there isn't a reason why. There is no justification & no way to figure it out.
So, yes they want details they assume are there that they don't have, they won't answer the question though.
He committed unbelievably selfish, violent & heartbreaking murders, the only answer to 'why' is in his head.
I feel terribly sorry for her family, & his, they lost everything too, I hope they are all receiving the counselling & help they need.

I think this is it exactly. We can try and rationalise and understand his actions all we like, there is nothing, nothing, that could have happened to him that was worth wiping his whole family off the earth for. The more we try and look for answers the more we’re left with questions. He was a selfish prick, sometimes it’s as simple as that. He was embarrassed over what happened in school and couldn’t face not being held in the same esteem as he once was. He even used to divulge to his counsellor about how loved he was in the community, he was self obsessed.

What he did was over the top, beyond cruel and an unnecessarily extreme reaction to what would have been dealt with rationally by someone with a normal ego. Why would anyone cover up for this monster? I think they are left without the “why” because it’s a question only he can answer. It’s unfair to assume his colleagues hold the answers and are keeping it from the family. No one in their right mind would cover for this piece of shlt.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

bubblypop wrote: »

It's human nature to try to make sense of a tragedy like this.
Clodaghs family are searching for an answer they will never get. They will never find out why he did it, because there isn't a reason why. There is no justification & no way to figure it out.
So, yes they want details they assume are there that they don't have, they won't answer the question though.
He committed unbelievably selfish, violent & heartbreaking murders, the only answer to 'why' is in his head.
I feel terribly sorry for her family, & his, they lost everything too, I hope they are all receiving the counselling & help they need.

This is a balanced post and, in my opinion, an accurate summary of the situation.

Some of the posts on here are bordering on hysterical, whipping up a frenzy of hatred that will achieve nothing and will just pile on the heartbreak for Alan Hawe's family who are also coping with a massive tragedy in their lives.

iamwhoiam

It took 18 months for the letter to be shown to them ! The letter that was written for their eyes . Now that is disgraceful in my opinion .
They are two dignified woman seeking information that might help ease their torment and no one seems to be listening . Shameful behavour

NIMAN

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It took 18 months for the letter to be shown to them ! The letter that was written for their eyes . Now that is disgraceful in my opinion .
They are two dignified woman seeking information that might help ease their torment and no one seems to be listening . Shameful behavour

Wondering if this is usual for the police system in this country, and indeed others?

Are the Guards protecting the family, or is there a legal reason for withholding suicide notes until inquests etc?

Could the family have taken legal action to be shown the notes?

Fiftyfilthy

Such a tragedy on the poor wife and kids

I think people suit the definition of depression to how it suits him

It is possible he was depressed for a length of time and his actions and rationale during this period made him believe what he was doing made sense

Some people have depression and can’t go into work , others can

Some people have depression and binge eat late at night , some don’t

My point is depression isn’t defined as true or false just because someone says that they have depression and didn’t kill anyone

Either way it was a callous and sickening crime

tretorn

bubblypop wrote: »

It's human nature to try to make sense of a tragedy like this.
Clodaghs family are searching for an answer they will never get. They will never find out why he did it, because there isn't a reason why. There is no justification & no way to figure it out.
So, yes they want details they assume are there that they don't have, they won't answer the question though.
He committed unbelievably selfish, violent & heartbreaking murders, the only answer to 'why' is in his head.
I feel terribly sorry for her family, & his, they lost everything too, I hope they are all receiving the counselling & help they need.

I dont think you can say they wont get answers. Answering simple questions for them would be a start. ie what happened in the school that was so bad that Hawe would murder his own family rather than go back and face the consequences of what he had done. Someone in the school knows what happened and how it was dealt with, there has to be a file somewhere with the information, give it to the two women.
If he rang the INTO what was the nature of the conversation, give this information to the relatives too. The Garda files presumably contain a lot of information, why not release the contents of those files too.

If porn was accessible on the school computers too then why werent they properly secured. Does this mean that other teachers are accessing pornography while sitting in front of young children too and they wont be caught unless someone walks in on them. Isnt this a major security issue.

Sam Quentin

You would find it very hard to find a more brutal evil story of evil towards ones wife and children in archives of murder suicide around the World.... Yes you will find some stories involving guns... But what he did...... My God.

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

It's human nature to try to make sense of a tragedy like this.
Clodaghs family are searching for an answer they will never get. They will never find out why he did it, because there isn't a reason why. There is no justification & no way to figure it out.
So, yes they want details they assume are there that they don't have, they won't answer the question though.
He committed unbelievably selfish, violent & heartbreaking murders, the only answer to 'why' is in his head.
I feel terribly sorry for her family, & his, they lost everything too, I hope they are all receiving the counselling & help they need.

I see the point you're making, and I agree to an extent.

Nevertheless, there is information in existence as to Hawe's employment difficulties, and he being dead, I see no reason why the survivors of his brutality should have sight of those documents.

Nobody thinks it will give them peace, but some degree of closure - maybe.

[Deleted User]

JMNolan wrote: »

Mrsmum wrote: »

Regarding the mum and sister, really and truly every single detail should be made available to them as they are the victims now. I don't understand who it serves (besides him but he's a murderer and anyway is dead) to keep stuff from them, even if only so they would not perhaps fill a vacuum by concentrating on the wrong details. It mist be insufferable for them to feel there is details of the story of their loved ones deaths that they are being kept in the dark about.

In my dealings with the state there are two reasons why they keep information from people
Cover up/protect themselves from scrutiny or legal action

Blind bureaucracy

Option 3 may well be legal obligations.

tretorn

He was a pillar of the community deeply immersed in the GAA, I think he was treasurer of the local GAA club which meant he was highly regarded. He was also well in with the local parish priest, probably necessary if you wanted promotion within the school. All of this could have led to giving him some sort of protection when he was caught when really if he was masturbating while accessing porn during school time he should have been suspended immediately. If I was a relative I would want official confirmation of whether he was caught accessing porn, what happened subsequently and really importantly how long before the murders was he caught. I dont think the family have been given any of this information so all of this could be local gossip.