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Home attached battery storage solution

unkel

Looking to install a battery home storage solution in the next few months to work with my 3.8kwp solar PV install. I already have a solar thermal hot water heating system and the family car is an EV

I've decided on an AC coupled system. I'm thinking of this AC inverter:

SoFar ME 3000SP

datasheet

It's basically an AC coupled inverter that you attach a 48V battery to. The inverter will sense if you produce more PV than you use in the house and will store the difference in the battery. And if you use more electricity in the house than you produce, it will use electricity from the battery instead of from the grid

Both ways to a max of 3kW

As a battery you could go the neater but more expensive li-ion route with say a Pylontech 2.4kWh battery. Both together here for sale for GBP1299 + VAT

Linky

Or you could just pick up the inverter for about EUR700 and then some used lead acid deep cycle leasure batteries second hand cheaply

If you get this work done by an SEAI installer, you are entitled to €1000 subsidy. Or you could DIY with the help of a friendly electrician (and not get the subsidy)

Any of you planning to do this? Any tips / opinions? If there are any SEAI installers here, you can PM me with a quote!

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niallers1

rolion wrote: »

Thanks.
You can use Zoltans quote no problem.I don't know him,no offence.

Zoltan installed mine last September.
4.2kw Solar PV with 4.8kwh Pylontech battery.
Very happy so far.

Now that I have it for almost 7 months the only thing I would have done different would have been to get a diverter. In the past 3 weeks I've given away about 60kwh to the grid (wasn't expecting to give away anything in March) and we still have another 6 months of long days ahead.
April to September will be giving away alot more. Could be giving away 200kwh in June the days are so long.

rolion

Thanks.
Got your subtle sarcasm...

I will love to see you doing a breakdown of the storage, new or second hand(as promoted by you).
Same as with the 4c gas boiler (despite knowing absolutely nothing about boiler modulation).

Can we have a figure for batteries,for inverter,for cables and for installation.
Also,final figures with a 24h and with a day/night rates meter.
You can use Zoltans quote no problem.I don't know him,no offence.

Let's see what kind of games are we playing here as I reached the conclusion that ongrid bats are hard to justify.

Thanks in advance.

unkel

rolion wrote: »

batteries for ongriders not financially viable as TCO and RoI. Today.

Everything is financially viable as long as you buy the parts very cheaply and install DIY (or with the free help of a friendly sparks). Preferably so cheap that if you decide to dismantle it and sell the parts on at a later stage, you get back more than you paid for it. Negative ROI :cool:

But yeah, if you already have a solar system then an SEAI approved and granted upgrade to have a lithium battery attached has a very long ROI. Even if you get it done for very reasonable money, like the quote I got from Zoltan in savememoney wind & solar...

Since when did you start caring about ROI anyway? :pac:

rolion

So,to close it ... batteries for ongriders not financially viable as TCO and RoI. Today.
Tomorrow,maybe.

unkel

rolion wrote: »

Got a good offer of Leaf 24KW battery pack for less than €3,000 collected and still cant make up the numbers to buy it.

Not a bad price, but still a huge amount of money for something that might save you just a few hundred quid a year.

rolion wrote: »

@unkel

Well,any news !?

Got the AC battery inverter for a very good price nearly new from the UK - was used by a regular poster on a renewables forum over there who has massive systems in place because he was upgrading to a higher output one. I mounted it, have all the other parts required but it's not yet wired up. Been busy and bad weather. Hoping to get my hands on a cheap battery in the next few weeks.

rolion

@unkel

Well,any news !?

Got a good offer of Leaf 24KW battery pack for less than €3,000 collected and still cant make up the numbers to buy it.

unkel

niallers1 wrote: »

I'm ok with the payback time being around 10 years. My goal is to reduce my monthly outgoings as much as possible for when I'm older

Yep I'm the same myself. My savings are doing nothing for me and over the few shekels per year they generate on my savings account, I have to pay tax.

I'd rather invest it in something that will give me (some) return in the form of reduced outgoings (and helps the environment). That's why I have an EV, solar thermal and solar PV.

I also like the idea of producing at least as much electricity as I consume per year, from my own renewable source.

And backup. Here in Dublin we never really have power outages, but in case it happened, you could run your house essentials on it for several days, provided your battery was at least about half full

Being self-sufficient also shields you to some extent from the price and tax increases, excises and all sorts of other levies that no doubt will come in future

niallers1

unkel wrote: »

Hopefully the batteries will last a lot longer than that, the latter is looking quite hopeful if the SOC higher and lower levels were set conservatively. Any idea what they were set at? Any idea what the max charge and discharge rates were set at?

lower level is 10% not sure what the max charge is but I think it's 100%. I'll try check that.
The max discharge is 2.4kw and the max charge is probabaly the same up to a certain percentage SOC .

I'm ok with the payback time being around 10 years. My goal is to reduce my monthly outgoings as much as possible for when I'm older or if I lose my job down the road , having lower bills apeals to me.
I paid for the installation with the cash back I got for switching my mortgage. That was fairly painless and the easiest few grand you'll ever make.:)

unkel

If there is a way of measuring how many kWh were released by the battery at what times, then you can calculate savings at day or night rates, so you have a fairly accurate way of calculating the pay back period. But even with the subsidy, the additional cost of the hybrid inverter and 2 pylontech batteries is substantial. I doubt the pay back is less than 10 years, probably a good bit more.

Hopefully the batteries will last a lot longer than that, the latter is looking quite hopeful if the SOC higher and lower levels were set conservatively. Any idea what they were set at? Any idea what the max charge and discharge rates were set at?

niallers1

rolion wrote: »

Batteries are not for us,normal home owners,green willies saving the planet.
Not today...

I disagree, since Mid September I've only given back about 31kwh to the grid thanks in part to my 2x2.4kwh pylontech batteries (and my east west array)

I would have given away free alot of kwh without the batteries.

Electricity prices have gone up again in March and will probably continue to do so for the next few years. That should be factored into the calculation.

unkel

rolion wrote: »

"The grid is the most effective battery" ... "dont buy solar diverter,send all extra excess PV energy to grid" , quote closed.

In a lot of cases it's cheaper to let surplus go to the grid for free rather than charge up a battery / heat some water with it

rolion wrote: »

Put up some figures about the battery storage.
From scratch,with inverter and all the auxiliary circuits.
Cabling and installation.
Without any grants,not worth it,in my humble opinion.Not even for the environment.

The price for a basic AC attached battery system with a Li battery is about the same with the grant (installed by an SEAI approved installer) as it is to do DIY and buy the parts yourself

In both cases the payback time would be quite long. Too long for me. So I agree it's not worth it. However if you go for a second hand inverter and lead acid batteries, the payback time can go down to a couple of years if you buy well. And don't worry, all my equipment is installed outdoors on the outside wall of my house nowhere near any inflammable material

rolion

unkel wrote: »

I don't think I have ever made a generic statement like that, rolion. I like renewables and I feel we all need to do a lot more to reduce the use of fossil fuels and to reduce harmful emissions. But not at any cost. Fair play if you don't mind spending thousands on equipment that will be end of life many years before they have paid for themselves, but I couldn't justify that to the accountant in me. Using generous grants can help sometimes, but not enough in this case. Buying hardware at well under half of the normal selling price and doing a DIY install is more up my street though

Agree to disagree...in a most respectul way.

"The grid is the most effective battery" ... "dont buy solar diverter,send all extra excess PV energy to grid" , quote closed.

Whats changed ? YESTERDAY,with a small array,you were confident, a bit pissed off when you have a big array TODAY and see how the moneys goes for free TOMORROW to mr grid ? Welcome to my world...

Put up some figures about the battery storage.
From scratch,with inverter and all the auxiliary circuits.
Cabling and installation.
Without any grants,not worth it,in my humble opinion.Not even for the environment.

Oh,we miss Conor with his lovely graphs...

Just to add .. .you sound a nice bloke...can i advise you in a friendly way: do not buy second hand battery storage equipment,inverters or anything to do with it...your life and your family could be at risk.
It happened at bigger houses,big corporates...do not mess with those powerfull chemicals...see what a fcuking phone can do yo your fingers (apart of bringing lots of dirty cash from the compensation,but thats another side of the story).
Stay safe.

unkel

rolion wrote: »

@unkel

I'll go back through all your past posts where you did the maths and arrived to a single conclusion: battery not worth the investment "today".
What's been changed,i wonder !?

Good luck !

I don't think I have ever made a generic statement like that, rolion. I like renewables and I feel we all need to do a lot more to reduce the use of fossil fuels and to reduce harmful emissions. But not at any cost. Fair play if you don't mind spending thousands on equipment that will be end of life many years before they have paid for themselves, but I couldn't justify that to the accountant in me. Using generous grants can help sometimes, but not enough in this case. Buying hardware at well under half of the normal selling price and doing a DIY install is more up my street though

Muahahaha

Coltrane wrote: »

Another possibility for you, Unkel, could be to invest in an electric space heater. These can be set to switch on only with surplus solar. Good for bright but chilly days. I use a far infra-red 400w free standing unit in the kitchen with a Smappee smart plug. Fairly low cost and probably less depreciative than any newish battery.( But you’re thinking of old lead acids!)

You could of course go the whole hog and buy a heat pump - that’d soak up your solar surplus!

Can I ask would you recommend infra red heaters? Do they take long to heat up a space from cold and also what brand and you using?

rolion

@unkel

I'll go back through all your past posts where you did the maths and arrived to a single conclusion: battery not worth the investment "today".
What's been changed,i wonder !?

Good luck !

unkel

Got approval from the mods to mention the company above:

It was Zoltan Nemeth

zoltan@savememoney.ie

From savememoney wind & solar

website

unkel

Sent an email to all the SEAI approved PV installers for a quote for either AC or DC coupled storage. Most of them didn't even bother replying :rolleyes:

A few rang me / emailed me back but seemed to be very confused about the idea of AC coupled storage. When I mentioned the Tesla Powerwall (also an AC coupled storage system) they kind of had heard about that alright

One came out to have a look at my current system. I wasn't very impressed with him either. He said he would prepare a quote for a DC coupled storage system, but I never heard back from him

Only one company did engage in a meaningful email exchange. They did impress me, knew the SEAI requirements inside and out (although he didn't agree with them), and he not only gave me a detailed quote for a DC coupled storage system, but it was also a very reasonable quote, with not a huge mark up on the parts. Can I mention his company here or is that still against the forum's rules?

Because hybrid inverters are still very expensive, the net cost to me after the grant would still have been over €2k. I can not justify that, so I did not go ahead. I did pick up a Sofar inverter almost new for very reasonable money in the UK today (it's on its way to me) and I'm now contemplating to go for a cheap 5kWh lead acid 48V battery setup (EUR200), or just to bite the bullet and get a Pylontech lithium battery...

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

would cost you a grand in cabling alone and a good few days to hook them all up. Or am I missing something here?

Millions of teeny cells? Good enough for Neo-Tesla and all the wannabes ...:rolleyes:

unkel

Looks like a cool piece of kit. The cheapest it has been for sale on Amazon is GBP150. That's a bit rich for me. I just picked up an Owl intuition monitor on eBay for GBP7 including shipping. It is complete with clamp with wireless transmitter (that you can connect in your outside ESB box) and wireless monitor that you can place anywhere in your house. Now this can only measure and display, not control a smart plug like the Smappee.

Coltrane

unkel wrote: »

My rigs are a touch over 1kW each, so not as big as you thought. And I could scale them down from 2 to 3 smaller rigs or even take out a few GPUs and sell them on. Don't want to switch the rigs on / off all the time though, it takes a good few minutes for them to boot up, connect to a mining pool, load the DAG files for each GPU, start mining and spool up to the max hash rates.

Any link to where you bought your Smappee system? Interesing stuff all the same!

Boards won’t let me post an url, as a new user, Unkel.

Check smappee.com

unkel

They seem to be 6V, 7Ah. So You'd need 125 of them for a 5kWh setup, would cost you a grand in cabling alone and a good few days to hook them all up. Or am I missing something here?

Thanks for your kind offer anyway

rolion

@unkel
you want some FREE of CHARGE batteries !?
See attached...just broke them down today from a 1,500VA ups.
PDF data specs atatched too.
save the eur50 !

unkel

My rigs are a touch over 1kW each, so not as big as you thought. And I could scale them down from 2 to 3 smaller rigs or even take out a few GPUs and sell them on. Don't want to switch the rigs on / off all the time though, it takes a good few minutes for them to boot up, connect to a mining pool, load the DAG files for each GPU, start mining and spool up to the max hash rates.

Any link to where you bought your Smappee system? Interesing stuff all the same!

Coltrane

Unkel, yes Smappee measures consumption and production using CT clamps. Its control box can send programmable on/off signals to the smart plugs (max 3kW load, too small for your rigs), so for example I’ve mine set to turn on my 400w heater when there’s a 450w or greater surplus and back off again as soon as the surplus disappears.

rolion

@unkel

Do you have access to my fcuking bank account that you know how much i fcuking paid for it !!!??
Second,when i bought my ABB years ago,you didnt even knew about PVs ...AND ... ABB was the only one inverter certified by ESB to work on their grid. I am more than happy with the system,best in class, industrial graded equipment,it did 9MWh,9,000KWh,9.000.000 units since day one.

So please back off with your silly, childish accusations.Dont getting me fcuking started...please...

I'm in for longer,i am waiting for others to buy expensive "ABBs" so that i can use that shared expeience and get a proper one...
My LEAF is "saving" every drop of their cells, waiting to come in the house...my eNV200 40KW once is writen down as business expense,same coming up in the house. that's almost 60KW and few hundreds of Ahsss...

Be good and take care,enjoy the PVs and EUR50 DC batteries ...buying ,selling and trade-up on other's pockets

PS

Found another picture of warming the invertor,the ABB one ... even bees loves it !
Dedicated for you...

unkel

rolion wrote: »

Keep your hard earned cash in your pocket and buy something nice to your wife ,guys !

Says the man who bought a EUR1500 ABB inverter

My Solis 3.6kW dual MPPT inverter set me back GBP220 brand new including shipping. And I have made a profit selling on all my previous solar equipment for more than I got it for

Picking up a few EUR50 deep cycle 100Ah leisure batteries tomorrow to have a play with. Four of these would give me a 5kWh battery for EUR200 (plus cost of cabling / clamps)

rolion

Keep your hard earned cash in your pocket and buy something nice to your wife ,guys !
Batteries are not for us,normal home owners,green willies saving the planet.
Not today...

Surplus for a good PV system ... i wanna see that being used for a heat pump or space heater when needed in the winter.
Your system barely warms up the bumble bees looking for something warm to their cold arse...or plan to use the surplus of PV in the summer for what !??

Good luck and do please share here your adventure....i'll do mine in couple of years,no offence.

unkel

I already have two large electric space heaters - crypto mining rigs

and they'll be running for another few months usefully (heating up the house) and basically as long as I don't have a battery solution in place. I should be running these from 10AM until 5PM and then on night rate from 11PM until 8AM (so I don't run them fully on full day rate electricity from the grid), but I'm not bothered with that.

Smart cheap electric space heaters, that's interesting. Does the Smappee smart plug work directly with a CT clamp or what way is that setup using solar surplus?

I know nothing about heat pumps, but my house was built in 2000 and has very poor air tightness, I don't think it would be suitable. Also my gas boiler is an excellent 98% efficient Viessman and was only installed 6 years ago. Leaving that well alone.

Space heating with excess electricity is only useful in winter though and in summer I make the most electricity...

Coltrane

Another possibility for you, Unkel, could be to invest in an electric space heater. These can be set to switch on only with surplus solar. Good for bright but chilly days. I use a far infra-red 400w free standing unit in the kitchen with a Smappee smart plug. Fairly low cost and probably less depreciative than any newish battery.( But you’re thinking of old lead acids!)

You could of course go the whole hog and buy a heat pump - that’d soak up your solar surplus!

unkel

Welcome to boards.ie Coltrane, nice first post!

V2H is still years away from being affordable unless you have a CHAdeMO EV and your utility provider is installing all the hardware for free as part of at trial

My own car is CCS too. I thought of replacing my dumb EVSE with a smart one, like a Zappi, but they are very expensive for what they are and of limited use, even if your car is usually parked at home during the better solar hours.

My house is old skool, so I have gas heating and gas hot water (well mostly solar), no electric heating and no electric showers. Electricity use is about 3.5MWh / year for normal household use excluding EV

As for costs, it does matter. You can install everything Sonnen and Tesla and it will look good, but the payback time will be longer than the life of the hardware. Those systems cost you money, not save you money. That doesn't work for me. Saving the planet shouldn't have to cost the world