prawnsambo wrote: » They probably will. But Vince Cable is about as charismatic as a wet paper bag, so he'd have to go. In fact, it could possibly be better for the Lib Dems to be absorbed into them rather than the other way around.
Tom Mann Centuria wrote: » The new company are, as George Monbiot has accurately described them, Conservatism minus Brexit. That's the brave new dawn we should enthuse about is it?
Leroy42 wrote: » So just maintain the status quo is that it? Unless it is perfect then no point in doing anything? It, if it works, signals a turn away from the extreme form of conversativism as preaching by the likes of JRM and the ERG. They are leaving not simply because of Brexit, but because they see the lurch to the right that the Tories are undertaking. As Allen said, they never thought the Tories would have a minister that said "F**K Business". Whether this ever amounts to anything (and if people think the bias against Corbyn is big, at least he is a leader of a main party!) then it will signal a shift in UK polictics. Take the LibDems for eg. If people had no turned there back on them over something as relatively minor (in terms of the damage Brexit could do) then in all likelohood Brexit wouldn't be happening. So they feel lied to over tuition fees and for that they are giving up FoM, probably getting a recession to boot!
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » Why would a party that has a history going back hundreds of years join this motley crew. They don’t have a coherent manifesto. Anti Corbyn isn’t a policy. The conservatives are right wingers.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » Why would a party that has a history going back hundreds of years join this motley crew. They don’t have a coherent manifesto. Anti Corbyn isn’t a policy. The conservatives in there are right wingers, not centrists.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » This new party guarantees Brexit. The political analysis on this thread is weak. Firstly I don’t think one of the Labour defectors will keep their seats. They are hated by the party. They will take votes from labour though. If May extends A50 for a few months, calls an election, she will have the votes to bring in her Brexit. The tories will be campaigning as a Brexit party.
Leroy42 wrote: » What cohernet manifesto do either of the main parties have?
Anti EU as been a perfectly valid policy for both UKIP and the ERG so your point doesn't stand up.
They are seen as right wingers in the traditional sense of left/right politics. But politics continually change. FG would be considered right wing yet have been the party of government when both Gay marriage and abortion were voted for. So it depends on how far right they are and whether there is any common ground with those with a more left leaning.
Leroy42 wrote: » It, if it works, signals a turn away from the extreme form of conversativism as preaching by the likes of JRM and the ERG. They are leaving not simply because of Brexit, but because they see the lurch to the right that the Tories are undertaking. As Allen said, they never thought the Tories would have a minister that said "F**K Business".
Leroy42 wrote: » Ah, so you think that some other solution would stop Brexit? Staying in their parties hasn't exactly helped up till now. Labour, under Corbyn has no intention of stopping Brexit, they will campaigning for Brexit as well. These 11 have all been against Brexit. But, for example, if Labour calls another confidence vote then at least those 3 ex Tories could help swing the vote. How does sitting there voting with the Tories help anything?
Leroy42 wrote: » Ah, so you think that some other solution would stop Brexit? Staying in their parties hasn't exactly helped up till now. Labour, under Corbyn has no intention of stopping Brexit, they will campaigning for Brexit as well.
These 11 have all been against Brexit. But, for example, if Labour calls another confidence vote then at least those 3 ex Tories could help swing the vote. How does sitting there voting with the Tories help anything?
Roger_007 wrote: » The Labour defectors were not going to keep their Labour seats anyway. Anyone who's anti Corbyn will be deselected for the next GE. The party at local level has been taken over by the loony left and will select loony left candidates. That's why there will no Labour government for the foreseeable future. The lessons of the Michael Foot era have been forgotten.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » There’s no indication at all that Corbyn couldn’t win. He out performed the polls last time. He can’t now of course.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » They literally have pages of the stuff.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » The ERG isn’t a party. UKIP get 6% of the vote despite anti EU sentiment being 50% or so. That’s what happens to single issue parties.
Roger_007 wrote: » Corbyn's ineptitude wasn't as clear then as it is now. Brexit has exposed him for what he is, a protest politician who cannot deal with issues when leadership is required. His performances at the dispatch box have been pathetic, and that's being kind to him.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » I think he’s been fine at the dispatch in fact. The problem you have with him is that he didn’t outright oppose Brexit. Given the political reality of much of his vote being pro Brexit, he couldn’t. The job of the Labour Party isn’t to pander to its richest supporters. That said I think they could and should campaign on a renegotiation and second referendum to take the sails out of the defectors.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » That said I think they could and should campaign on a renegotiation and second referendum to take the sails out of the defectors.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » You'll need to change leader for that campaign to happen. Corbyn is vehemently opposed to a second referendum.
Leroy42 wrote: » You said coherent. I didn't claim they had no policies. Do you think either the Tories of Labour have a coherent plan on Brexit?
The ERG have a leader, vice leader, they have a policy different that the Tories. and they label themselves as the ERG. They are a party in every sense expect they have not the guts to actually leave the Tory party, perferring instead to change from within.
There are a myriad of reasons why UKIP got 6%. The fundamentals of FPTT system, meaning that in many cases a vote for UKIP is a wasted vote. Their organisation. The lack of policies outside of Anti-EU. The standard of candidates.
Leroy42 wrote: » And has been completely against taking an actual position on Brexit. He disappeared during the campaign and has been dragged into a position on the CU by his Labour party. May has regularly been able to side step any question at PMQ's on Brexit from Corbyn by simply stating that Corbyn has no plan, no idea, no policy. And Corbyn is left looking sheepish. Even Labour will admit that their policy is to remain vague, not to pick a position to avoid getting boxed in. They can be anything to anybody. So many think Labour will support a 2nd Ref, a softer Brexit, a cancellation of Brexit, a CU/SM. But actually Corbyn has made little little assurances on any of this, expect that he would negotiate better. Even the earlier point that Corbyn was doing 'fine' at the dispatch box. He is up against one of the worst PM's in history. See cannot command her own party. She cannot make decisions. She constantly goes back on what she promised. She has no charisma. And yet the best Corbyn can do is 'fine'? That there is a pretty damning indictment of Corbyn
Leroy42 wrote: » And has been completely against taking an actual position on Brexit.
Berserker wrote: » That's going to upset his base vote though.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » What I’m really talking about though is the subsequent election. The cons are a shoo in.
prawnsambo wrote: » That really depends on how brexit pans out. A hard brexit could absolutely decimate the Tories. I'm sure that's what Corbyn is banking on. Hence the fence sitting.
Hurrache wrote: » Seems to be party wide, this is hilariously awful.https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1098250673035071490
Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: » ...and the CU/SM "plan" that he keeps shouting about makes zero sense in the context of Brexit due to the requirement to accept the rules that come along with CU/SM membership - it'd make the UK a net rule taker. They'd be better off in the EU.
