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MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

BobbyBobberson

Looks like its happening. What is the impact in all honesty?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1097405369582866434

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Harry Palmr

It's really exiting (god I'm a nerd)

ancapailldorcha

Hopefully the new thread title will be a bit more durable.

prawnsambo

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This thread will need a new title again, everything is pointing to three Conservative MPs quitting imminently.

Aaaaand they're off.

prawnsambo

Leroy42 wrote: »

I would say that to many, yes it is. Certainly IMO, that is the view that Israel takes.

When you say 'Israel' do you mean the government or the people? Because that distinction is important since many Israeli people do not support the government's attitude to Palestine or the Palestinian people. So it's back to the distinction between Israeli government policy, Israel as a nation and the Israeli people. All subtly different but nonetheless important distinctions.

Franz Von Peppercorn

markodaly wrote: »

Defined by whom, you?

Defined by capitalists or indeed modernists when they deal with economic growth since the capitalist era. There are other criteria ( like environmentalism, equality etc) but capitalism has generally sunk or swam on the basis that it makes everybody richer. And if the richer get even richer, so what? If that system breaks down then there isn't much left the the armoury of capitalist apologism except "theres no other option", which might be true of course.

Do you know when there was record real wage growth in the UK? Around 1985.

I doubt that graph, the page I produced showed average per decade wage growth in the UK, showed it slow down every decade since the 70s

I don't disagree with the fact that wage growth of the 70's may be higher than now. That does not mean we should or even can revert back to that era and follow similar economic policy when the world is a vastly different place economically.

It is and you are right on that. Its a pipe dream to assume that Keynsianism would work in globalised environments.

That is the danger of looking back, anyone can pick out a fact and claim that the past was great, and we should go back there.
Economic data coming out of 1930's Germany was pretty impressive, does not mean we should advocate building up submarines and tanks today to improve unemployment and wage growth?

Thats a bit Godwin for me.

You didn't prove anything, you posted up something about wage growth as if that is the single metric that matters, as Moses himself stated its all that matters to make reasonable objective judgments on the past.

What about life expectancy?
1970 it was 71, today it is 81

What about death rates at work?
There has been an 85% reduction since 1974

What about education levels?
The average school leaver is 7 times more likely to go to University or a Polytech today than in 1970

What about women's place in the workforce? Do you think the '70s was a great time for them?

What about if you were a minority or Gay, the latter was legally a fireable offence.

This is all good stuff, but was all driven by and large by leftwing ideologies. The Thatcher regime was clearly homophobic ( i.e. section 28).

It does actually in the main but as you know there are caveats. Just because wage growth has stagnated, does not mean there are no benefits to Globalisation and free trade.

Its the Brexit argument again, the EU is somewhat dysfunctional, so lets leave and revert to the 1970's (Corbynista's) 1950's (Tory Brexiters)

You've lost the economic argument at this stage so it is all straw men. I think that Brexit is lunacy, that said I think low wages are a contribution to Brexit.

Only if you think that all and every metric of prosperity, growth, and progress can be encapsulated in one and only metric, of wage growth. If you really believe that.....

I don't but capitalist apologists tend to. However the response I originally made to you was economic.

LOL, This is the same guy who raised tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum and threatens a trade war with China? That free market fanatic? At least engage honestly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs
Trump is many many things, but a free market fanatic he is not.

Trump is very pertinent to this question, as he was elected on a populism, much like how Corbyn hopes to be elected.

You might want to look at his state of the union speech on socialism. He has imposed Tariffs yes but in fact theres a growing body of economic position that globalisation hasn't worked, you contributed to that yourself. Look at this tax cuts though, totally supply side.

( Anyway I am done now as we are heading off topic).

Harry Palmr

This thread will need a new title again, everything is pointing to three Conservative MPs quitting imminently.

bilston

George Galloway has said today that the accusation that Corbyn is anti-Semitic is a "Goebelian lie'

Dreadful choice of phrase

prawnsambo

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Recall elections are a regular event in the US, most notably when California governor Gray Davis was recalled in 2003 and lost the subsequent election to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Likewise in the US, any representative can be primaried and effectively de-selected from within their own party. That's how Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez became the Democratic candidate in her district.

Trump could theoretically face this in 2020.

I don't particularly agree with the concept of allowing the recall of MPs (outside of the existing provisons to do so) but to say such a proposal is "Orwellian" is considerably overegging the pudding, in my view.

But recall elections only go as far as state level. And the rules differ from state to state. Some have to pass judicial scrutiny. As for primaries, they are part of the elction process and therefore can only remove a sitting representative at the end of their term. Pretty much what can happen here or in the UK. Although it's very rare that a sitting TD would be removed from a constituency prior to an election. But it is possible.

It may be a stretch to call it Orwellian, but I'm thinking of the pledge that's been going around social media recently as well. But the real issue is the notion that a party can 'own' a seat and therefore decide who sits in it and now is looking to increase that power to remove dissenters from them is stretching democracy to breaking point.

prawnsambo

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Genuine question...is supporting Palestine deemed anti-Semitic?

No. And this is what I think is part of the disingenuous narrative around Israel and anti-semitism. Supporting the rights of Palestine and the Palestinian people and directly or indirectly condemning Israeli government policy is fine. But then the water gets muddied by people calling on Jewish people in the UK or the HoC to condemn Israel crosses that line. Because it's a bit like saying that Muslims who have lived all their lives in Ireland or the UK, should somehow be required to condemn Isamic fundamentalism, because y'know, they're the same thing until proven otherwise.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Genuine question...is supporting Palestine deemed anti-Semitic?

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Ok if that's the case many Irish people are anti-Semitic without knowing it.

As pointed out by judeboy101 earlier, I think this relies on a false equivalence between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.

hill16bhoy

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's starting to look like I have an agenda here, but really I don't. It's just... well... words fail me. I feel like I've woken up this morning to an Orwellian landscape. Somewhere between Animal Farm and 1984.

Recall elections are a regular event in the US, most notably when California governor Gray Davis was recalled in 2003 and lost the subsequent election to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Likewise in the US, any representative can be primaried and effectively de-selected from within their own party. That's how Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez became the Democratic candidate in her district.

Trump could theoretically face this in 2020.

I don't particularly agree with the concept of allowing the recall of MPs (outside of the existing provisons to do so) but to say such a proposal is "Orwellian" is considerably overegging the pudding, in my view.

c.p.w.g.w

Leroy42 wrote: »

I would say that to many, yes it is. Certainly IMO, that is the view that Israel takes.

Ok if that's the case many Irish people are anti-Semitic without knowing it.

Cryptopagan

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's starting to look like I have an agenda here, but really I don't. It's just... well... words fail me. I feel like I've woken up this morning to an Orwellian landscape.

A lot of constituencies are so solidly Labour or Tory that the identity of the candidate they actually run isn’t that important; they will win regardless. It isn’t like Ireland where every lampost is burnished with half a dozen posters at election time and you’ve got candidates calling to your door. Voters will vote for whoever as long as they’re running for their preferred party.

Leroy42

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Genuine question...is supporting Palestine deemed anti-Semitic?

I would say that to many, yes it is. Certainly IMO, that is the view that Israel takes.

Hurrache

I never said it was.

c.p.w.g.w

Hurrache wrote: »

I read last night that a representative from Young Labour said they couldn't stop people tweeting abusive tweets from the Young Labour Account. What an awful crowd.

But remember folks, there's people here insisting that this is all made up and doesn't exist.

Genuine question...is supporting Palestine deemed anti-Semitic?

Hurrache

prawnsambo wrote: »

And there it is again. Since deleted and disavowed,

I read last night that a representative from Young Labour said they couldn't stop people tweeting abusive tweets from the Young Labour Account. What an awful crowd.

But remember folks, there's people here insisting that this is all made up and doesn't exist.

Water John

Some people in LB, fanatics, need a basic lesson in democratic principles. An MP is elected by the people to be their Member of Parliament for as long as that Parliament sits.
They are charged with acting in the best interests of the people, not slavishly taking direction from them. Go back and read Edmund Burke.
This is similar to governing of the basis of ongoing polls, and not the national interest.

prawnsambo

It's starting to look like I have an agenda here, but really I don't. It's just... well... words fail me. I feel like I've woken up this morning to an Orwellian landscape. Somewhere between Animal Farm and 1984.

prawnsambo

judeboy101 wrote: »

To me it seems that anything anti-Zionist is now conflated with anti-semitic. Not all jews are zionists and not all zionists are jews.

I have real problems with the use of that word. 'Zionism' is usually taken to be the movement for the development and protection of the Jewish nation of Israel. It now seems to be conflated loosely to mean a hawkish Israel intent on widening its borders at the expense of Palestine. The former meaning is a statement of a situation that pretty much the whole world (bar those few nations who want to wipe Israel off the map) agrees with. The latter seems to be interchangeable in its meaning and being anti-Zionist can sound reasonable in one context and abhorrent in the other. And it seems to me that that interchangeability can be used as a dog whistle for anti-semitism whilst simultaneously being a defence against any such charges.

judeboy101

To me it seems that anything anti-Zionist is now conflated with anti-semitic. Not all jews are zionists and not all zionists are jews.

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted and bans issued.

prawnsambo

And there it is again. Since deleted and disavowed, but as if other wavering Labour MPs needed an excuse.

Edit: And another one.

markodaly

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The most important metric.

Defined by whom, you?

Do you know when there was record real wage growth in the UK? Around 1985.

colorcorrected-6.jpeg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1240

Does that mean we should try and reinvent the 80's with old hat economic policy? No, of course not.

Picking out a single metric from the 1970's and using that as cause and motivation to pretend that that decade was lovely, is purely deluded.

You admitted yourself you weren't around for it, yet for someone who lived through it take it from me, you would have hated it. You dont know how lucky you are to be honest.

You just didn’t like those facts.

I don't disagree with the fact that wage growth of the 70's may be higher than now. That does not mean we should or even can revert back to that era and follow similar economic policy when the world is a vastly different place economically.

That is the danger of looking back, anyone can pick out a fact and claim that the past was great, and we should go back there.
Economic data coming out of 1930's Germany was pretty impressive, does not mean we should advocate building up submarines and tanks today to improve unemployment and wage growth?

The 70s were better for workers in the UK than now. That was my initial claim. I then proved the claim with stats.

You didn't prove anything, you posted up something about wage growth as if that is the single metric that matters, as Moses himself stated its all that matters to make reasonable objective judgments on the past.

What about life expectancy?
1970 it was 71, today it is 81

What about death rates at work?
There has been an 85% reduction since 1974

What about education levels?
The average school leaver is 7 times more likely to go to University or a Polytech today than in 1970

What about women's place in the workforce? Do you think the '70s was a great time for them?

What about if you were a minority or Gay, the latter was legally a fireable offense.

So long as you didn't mind dying younger, more likely to have a fatal accident at work, not mind having the same educational opportunities, not be a woman, a minority or gay, then MAYBE you might be better off working in the 1970's than now.

"Make the UK great again"

You don’t have a rebuttal so it’s just a list of excuses. If it is true that China is the reason that wages in the west are stagnating (and I don’t disagree that it’s a factor) then one of the shibboleths of free market theology is incorrect. Globalisation and trade were supposed to lift all boats.

It does actually in the main but as you know there are caveats. Just because wage growth has stagnated, does not mean there are no benefits to Globalisation and free trade.

Its the Brexit argument again, the EU is somewhat dysfunctional, so lets leave and revert to the 1970's (Corbynista's) 1950's (Tory Brexiters)

Again that might be true but economics claims migration, open borders and free trade are what makes us richer.

It does actually.

Productivity should increase wages in real terms if distributed evenly. After all more stuff is being produced. And again this is arguing against another free market shibboleth - that technology raises living standards.

Only if you think that all and every metric of prosperity, growth, and progress can be encapsulated in one and only metric, of wage growth. If you really believe that.....

I’m not sure that Trump has anything to do with my position given that, like you, he is a free market fanatic.

LOL, This is the same guy who raised tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum and threatens a trade war with China? That free market fanatic? At least engage honestly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_tariffs
Trump is many many things, but a free market fanatic he is not.

Trump is very pertinent to this question, as he was elected on a populism, much like how Corbyn hopes to be elected.

markodaly

Havockk wrote: »

Western investors didn't like inflation for in their eyes it hit their profits so they essentially went on strike in the 70's which caused the downturn.

Is this claim based in actual fact or is it just another convenient story ala Conspiracy Theory.

Then comes neo-liberalism, everything was let loose and because investors didn't like inflation they set out to control it. Now globalisation comes into play (it's a factor, not a cause) which essentially upsets local labour power and disenfranchises swathes of people as they watch their jobs depart overseas to where wages are lower. However, the sting in the tail is Thatcher is now in power and she refuses to lift a finger to help the millions of her own people she has now disenfranchised. She believes the market will solve the problem.

Neo-Liberalism and Gloablisation came before Thatcher.....
Are you making it, or just engaging Trumpian fake news.

Now here we are, wages have not risen since the 70's in real terms.

Another fact where you are wrong.

?format=1500w

Wage HAVE grown in real term since the 1970's in the UK

No one is trying to fix this and the Indy Group want to keep this status quo? They don't even understand the problem.

Perhaps, but the solution to the problem is what again? Adopt economic policies from the 1970's in such a globalised inter-connected world of 2019?

Corbyn and yourself are wrong to believe that Brexit (which you both favour deep down) will enable the UK to solve this issue problem.

[Deleted User]

Water John wrote: »

I'm not saying any number but the attitude of the MP was staggering in it's consequence.

It seems to be the way of the current Labour Party. Quite happy to watch the world burn so they bring in their new socialist eutopia

super_furry

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ruth George really helping the split.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47296591

It's genuinely mad what's going on with Labour and these Israel and Jewish conspiracy theories.

Water John

I'm not saying any number but the attitude of the MP was staggering in it's consequence.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Water John wrote: »

The pro Corbyn guy interviewed on Newsnight was asked about the risk to 100 LB MPs of being deselected and he was completely unfazed. This looks like the beginning of a purge within LB. If you're not a Corbynite, you're out.
Anyone who feels under this threat will jump.

100 defectors? A big claim.

It isnt surprising about Ryan, I had forgotten about her but she was an obvious candidateto defect.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Keir Starmer is just waiting to take over, Corbyn's inner circle doesn't want to give him any more screen time than possible.

Doesn’t the parliamentary parry have to vote and haven’t about 8 people hostile to Corbyn left the party?