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A common misconception

realitykeeper

In the past Ireland was conservative and economically backward. Other countries in Europe were much more liberal and prosperous. Consequently, we in Ireland assumed that liberalism was the reason for success in those other countries. As recent referendums have shown, a lot of Irish people have now aped this liberalism of those other countries in the hope that it will improve life in Ireland. Consequently, Irish people are set for a lot of disappointment.

The success of other countries is not because they are liberal but because of their lingering puitanical values. One does not have to be Protestant to be puritanical but it does require one to work hard, and to be frugal and austere. In other words, flaunting wealth is out even when you are very wealthy. These are the values that made other countries wealthy, their wealth was in spite of their liberalism and not because of it. Things like philanthropy and conservative values are also an important part of the puritanical way.

The reason a lot of those foreign countries were liberal was because they were rejecting the strict moral values of the past and this gave the impression to the Irish that liberalism was the cause of their success.

Did the excesses of the celtic tiger era make Ireland successful? Of course not. Had Ireland worked hard but been frugal and austere, the outcome would have been more to our favour. Am I wrong?

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[Deleted User]

realitykeeper wrote: »

Things like philanthropy and conservative values are also an important part of the puritanical way.

Another gem you plucked out of your posterior.

Hedgelayer

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Ireland now seems to be a country lost. We don know what we want or where we’re going as a society and have lost a considerable amount of our past. It saddens me to see what Ireland has become.

I hear you sir/madam.

A beautiful country side fresh air and space.
Our history and heritage is rapidly declining, I think if industry and consumism declined we'd be trying to build our tourism industry again.

I used to be caught up in the whole flashy living and insanity I see some people immersed in today.

No doubt partying and looking great is fun, talking shoite about my latest purchase was ok but eventually it all faded away.
I lost a lot during the recession, except my house and job.

I suppose what I lost really grounded me, I still have my Belstaff jacket's, iron ranger's boots, nice outdoor clothes,chainsaws, tools and imagination.

But I lost the lust for power and being someone I'll never be.

Started reading a lot and looking at myself and my responsibilities.

I buy quality and nice things, but I don't put them before my primary purpose.

I rely on fact's and common sense, I have a good grasp of language and culture.

But this whole alt right and liberal agenda is really a load of bollox....

realitykeeper

Hedgelayer wrote: »

The one's in the middle just work away and don't look for attention or try to sway anyone to go against the grain.

Perhaps, but people who think for themselves do not go with the grain and that alone is enough to cause friction with liberals.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

St Patrick's Day is an American invention. Let them have it.

That's the joke. It was hardly Irish to begin with, and now it certainly isn't.

The land of extortionate housing and corporation taxes. That's our claim to fame

Harry Palmr

Someone seems to have confused liberal with didactic nutter.

Johnnyhpipe

Hedgelayer wrote: »

I hear you sir/madam.

A beautiful country side fresh air and space.
Our history and heritage is rapidly declining, I think if industry and consumism declined we'd be trying to build our tourism industry again.

I used to be caught up in the whole flashy living and insanity I see some people immersed in today.

No doubt partying and looking great is fun, talking shoite about my latest purchase was ok but eventually it all faded away.
I lost a lot during the recession, except my house and job.

I suppose what I lost really grounded me, I still have my Belstaff jacket's, iron ranger's boots, nice outdoor clothes,chainsaws, tools and imagination.

But I lost the lust for power and being someone I'll never be.

Started reading a lot and looking at myself and my responsibilities.

I buy quality and nice things, but I don't put them before my primary purpose.

I rely on fact's and common sense, I have a good grasp of language and culture.

But this whole alt right and liberal agenda is really a load of bollox....

Same here. I lost exactly that in the recession. I had, and now have again a well paying job. But I dont give a sh-t about becoming who I once wanted to be.

Hedgelayer

WesternZulu wrote: »

Didn't the OECD just publish a report where Ireland is the most productive country in Europe.

Exactly that's what you tell gullible people when you want to feed off them, keep up the hard work.

Like the generals telling the soldiers to climb the trenches and get a bullet point for their country.

While the generals sip tea from their eggshell cup's....

CalamariFritti

To me being liberal means being in the footsteps of renaissance and enlightenment, in the footsteps of the great french philosophers and theorists. To be free and let others be free and to seek the truth. After all thats what that word actually means - free.

To me it's not about ruining the planet for profit and squeezing the workers (neo-liberalism) or American liberalism or ramming your agenda down anyones throat however enlightened you think it may be. There are many liberalisms about these days and most of them are false.

So let me ask you back first what kind of liberalism are we talking about?

OldMrBrennan83

Lost implants wrote: »

One of the most common misconceptions is that this forum is supposed to be social and fun.

Where else would it go?

dxhound2005

Hedgelayer wrote: »

Exactly that's what you tell gullible people when you want to feed off them, keep up the hard work.

Like the generals telling the soldiers to climb the trenches and get a bullet point for their country.

While the generals sip tea from their eggshell cup's....

You "rely on fact's and common sense, and have a good grasp of language and culture".

I don't think so.

dxhound2005

beejee wrote: »

That's the joke. It was hardly Irish to begin with, and now it certainly isn't.

The land of extortionate housing and corporation taxes. That's our claim to fame

Our claim to fame is that we are the country of a Hundred Thousand Welcomes.

realitykeeper

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I think you are on your own with the idea that low pay is a solution to anything. Right wingers might say that wages are sometimes artificially high because of government or labour union interference with their beloved market but nobody really supports low pay.

Absolutely agree. I have had zero success convincing anyone that low pay is a good idea.

The wealth effect of quantitative easing and cheap money enabled wages to continue rising. In the naughties, cheap money caused house prices to rise. Using borrowed money to pay everyone a higher figure just so we can all compete in the same market to push up prices seems unwise in my opinion.

Junkyard Tom

realitykeeper wrote: »

The industrial revolution was partly a consequence of hard work ...

Indeed.

newstatesman.com/economics

Hedgelayer

CalamariFritti wrote: »

To me being liberal means being in the footsteps of renaissance and enlightenment, in the footsteps of the great french philosophers and theorists. To be free and let others be free and to seek the truth. After all thats what that word actually means - free.

To me it's not about ruining the planet for profit and squeezing the workers (neo-liberalism) or American liberalism or ramming your agenda down anyones throat however enlightened you think it may be. There are many liberalisms about these days and most of them are false.

So let me ask you back first what kind of liberalism are we talking about?

That's what baffles me.

Because being liberal should be akin to minding one's own business and letting people be themselves.

I think unjustified assault, killing, sexual oriented crime's and stealing are the worst crimes.

But people need to drop their insecurity and sensitivity to people who are homophobic racist etc

Luckily I can take a slagging or someone's negative opinions of me on the chin.

I know who I am, and that's ok with me.
Slag me off call me whatever and I'll accept that you're either mad slightly unhinged or angry, or else you just like banter and getting a rise out of someone.
I'm good with punchline come backs so it's hard to offend me.

If someone cuts me in traffic I just laugh at them and put up my hand like a country drivers salute.

I nearly always get the other drivers laughing back.....

beejee

CalamariFritti wrote: »

To me being liberal means being in the footsteps of renaissance and enlightenment, in the footsteps of the great french philosophers and theorists. To be free and let others be free and to seek the truth. After all thats what that word actually means - free.

To me it's not about ruining the planet for profit and squeezing the workers (neo-liberalism) or American liberalism or ramming your agenda down anyones throat however enlightened you think it may be. There are many liberalisms about these days and most of them are false.

So let me ask you back first what kind of liberalism are we talking about?

If we had a stronger national character, we would have our own definitions of liberalism. Instead it's a toss up between neo liberalism and "American liberalism".

Classical liberalism, as in Renaissance period? Not even close, don't be mad

I mentioned earlier about gay marriage and abortion. These things wouldn't have touched Ireland for centuries without America (hyperbole).

I'm not saying good or bad, but the idea that Ireland would have done these things minus America? Based on what? Our centuries of hyper strict Catholicism?

Nah, we're a country emotionally based on American television, American culture, EU mandates and corporate demands.

It all rings Hollow af

dxhound2005

realitykeeper wrote: »

Absolutely agree. I have had zero success convincing anyone that low pay is a good idea.

The wealth effect of quantitative easing and cheap money enabled wages to continue rising. In the naughties, cheap money caused house prices to rise. Using borrowed money to pay everyone a higher figure just so we can all compete in the same market to push up prices seems unwise in my opinion.

I was on a pay freeze for 8 years after having a pay reduction when the crash came. So were hundreds of thousands of others. A modest inflation rate which is what we have had, is better than no inflation or deflation in a capitalist economy.

beejee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Our claim to fame is that we are the country of a Hundred Thousand Welcomes.

Read: eejits that will end over backwards to accommodate whatever shyte someone happens to be selling on any day. Hollow

Hedgelayer

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You "rely on fact's and common sense, and have a good grasp of language and culture".

I don't think so.

Don't think so.

I don't understand what you don't think.

Can you please explain yourself ?

realitykeeper

CalamariFritti wrote: »

There are many liberalisms about these days and most of them are false.

Indeed. Liam Neeson was recently accused of injuring the US African American community for simply recalling an old memory. The me-too people are getting more and more ridiculous. Any hint of traditional values seem to be enough to warrant total banishment from mainstream media.

Hedgelayer

realitykeeper wrote: »

Indeed. Liam Neeson was recently accused of injuring the US African American community for simply recalling an old memory. The me-too people are getting more and more ridiculous. Any hint of traditional values seem to be enough to warrant total banishment from mainstream media.

The perpetually outraged think tanks.

They'll fade away eventually, I know there's a trend of teen-agers listening to their grandparents warning them of being over sensitive and triggered.

It's starting to backfire rapidly.

Franz Von Peppercorn

CalamariFritti wrote: »

To me being liberal means being in the footsteps of renaissance and enlightenment, in the footsteps of the great french philosophers and theorists. To be free and let others be free and to seek the truth. After all thats what that word actually means - free.

To me it's not about ruining the planet for profit and squeezing the workers (neo-liberalism) or American liberalism or ramming your agenda down anyones throat however enlightened you think it may be. There are many liberalisms about these days and most of them are false.

So let me ask you back first what kind of liberalism are we talking about?

Great French philosophers? Most post French war philosophers were Marxist not liberals. Not fans of the enlightenment either.

Franz Von Peppercorn

realitykeeper wrote: »

Absolutely agree. I have had zero success convincing anyone that low pay is a good idea.

The wealth effect of quantitative easing and cheap money enabled wages to continue rising. In the naughties, cheap money caused house prices to rise. Using borrowed money to pay everyone a higher figure just so we can all compete in the same market to push up prices seems unwise in my opinion.

That’s wrong again. The wealth effect of QE allowed asset classes to keep growing (the clue is in the name) wages have been stagnating for a few generations in the west and post the Great Recession here.

Franz Von Peppercorn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I was on a pay freeze for 8 years after having a pay reduction when the crash came. So were hundreds of thousands of others. A modest inflation rate which is what we have had, is better than no inflation or deflation in a capitalist economy.

Ah don’t be contradicting crazy theory with facts.

CalamariFritti

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Great French philosophers? Most post French war philosophers were Marxist not liberals. Not fans of the enlightenment either.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Voltaire and Rousseau. Hence enllightenment.

Also Marxist and liberal are not mutually exclusive. Most of what has been done in his name was wrong, but that doesn't make the man or his analysis wrong. Most of what he wrote is still true today.

Franz Von Peppercorn

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I'm thinking more along the lines of Voltaire and Rousseau. Hence enllightenment.

Also Marxist and liberal are not mutually exclusive. Most of what has been done in his name was wrong, but that doesn't make the man or his analysis wrong. Most of what he wrote is still true today.

Marxist liberalism is an oxymoron. I could quote millions of Marxist texts denouncing liberalism. Or bourgeois liberalism as they called it. The two are not compatible.

There’s very little in Marx that was new, and most of what was new was wrong. His theory of superstructure masking structure is good though, and stands in refutation to the op (whose philosophy would be best described as neo feudalist) - the belief of Weber (and the op) that Protestantism causes capitalism is incorrect, in fact the rise of capitalism and commercialism caused Protestantism.

kowloon

realitykeeper wrote: »

As recent referendums have shown, a lot of Irish people have now aped this liberalism of those other countries in the hope that it will improve life in Ireland.

Personally, I just try to not be a dick.

CalamariFritti

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Marxist liberalism is an oxymoron. I could quote millions of Marxist texts denouncing liberalism. Or bourgeois liberalism as they called it. The two are not compatible.

There’s very little in Marx that was new, and most of what was new was wrong. His theory of superstructure masking structure is good though, and stands in refutation to the op (whose philosophy would be best described as neo feudalist) - the belief of Weber (and the op) that Protestantism causes capitalism is incorrect, in fact the rise of capitalism and commercialism caused Protestantism.

Fair enough, strictly speaking there is little I can argue with that. They were bourgeois no doubt.

In my own world view they're not mutually exclusive though, not at the heart of it. They were anti feudal, power to the people - Voltaire was anyway - and the big capital owners are the feudalists of our and of Marx' time. And I feel too its more a symptom of the times they were in. When Voltaire was around no one of pheasant stock had the education to even know what philosophy or political and social theory was.

realitykeeper

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I was on a pay freeze for 8 years after having a pay reduction when the crash came. So were hundreds of thousands of others. A modest inflation rate which is what we have had, is better than no inflation or deflation in a capitalist economy.

There is no way the country could have afforded to pay you your frozen wage these past 8 years if it were not for easy money and low interest rates from the ECB. The reason the ECB wanted inflation to be close to but below 2% was because that would be higher than their own interest rate and that level of inflation is not going to worry european economies.

The simple fact is QE is highly inflationary and this pent up inflation is like a tsunami headed this way but we are getting off topic here. There are many reasons why low pay is a good idea. For example, if you want to recycle rubbish properly without incinerating tonnes of plastic and other valuable materials, a certain amount of hands on labour is needed but that is unviable because of the minimum wage. Ireland simply cannot compete in low value goods with our pay being so high.

Franz Von Peppercorn

realitykeeper wrote: »

There is no way the country could have afforded to pay you your frozen wage these past 8 years if it were not for easy money and low interest rates from the ECB. The reason the ECB wanted inflation to be close to but below 2% was because that would be higher than their own interest rate and that level of inflation is not going to worry european economies.

The simple fact is QE is highly inflationary and this pent up inflation is like a tsunami headed this way but we are getting off topic here. There are many reasons why low pay is a good idea. For example, if you want to recycle rubbish properly without incinerating tonnes of plastic and other valuable materials, a certain amount of hands on labour is needed but that is unviable because of the minimum wage. Ireland simply cannot compete in low value goods with our pay being so high.

It’s highly inflationary for asset classes. It’s not highly inflationary for wages as wages have stagnated. Nor for other goods as they have also stagnated in price. The facts overwhelm your theory.

A country shouldn’t aim to produce low value goods either.

(Oh and the country probably doesn’t pay his wages either if he’s in the private sector).

realitykeeper

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s highly inflationary for asset classes. It’s not highly inflationary for wages as wages have stagnated. Nor for other goods as they have also stagnated in price. The facts overwhelm your theory.

A country shouldn’t aim to produce low value goods either.

(Oh and the country probably doesn’t pay his wages either if he’s in the private sector).

Inflation impacts different things at different times. For the past decade, the stock markets have been inflating as you correctly point out. When the stock markets crash (or deflate), more qe will be needed and this time a different set of assets will inflate, e.g. your groceries.

Western economies are making a mistake concentrating on high value added goods to the exclusion of low value goods. Skilled foreigners are brought in while unskilled Irish join the dole. Low value goods are imported while low value manufacturing here has moved abroad.