nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Imreoir2

briany wrote: »

In a way, I could see a UI becoming a bit like Ireland's Brexit. It's a political issue with a lot of emotion around it and where the valid concerns of experts becomes lost amid nationalist, populist fervour.

And just like Brexiteers might say "I'm willing to take the hit if it means being out of the EU.", Irish nationalists might express the same kind of sentiment about a UI.

This is not to say that I'm against a UI at all, but yes it is important for the country to go into the thing with eyes wide open and have none of the sloganeering bluster that went into the Brexit referendum. Very thorough, frank conversations should be had.

I will freely admit that the economic side of unification is not the priority for me. I am not pro unification because I think it will put a few extra euros in my pocket, nor would the loss of a few euros from my pocket cause me to change my mind.

For what it's worth, I believe that unification has a good posibility of being a long term net positive economically for Ireland, but that is not the basis of my support for it.

Unlike the Brexiteers who claimed that Brexit would be easy and would have noting but positives, I am quite happy to admit that Unification will be dificult, it will have costs and risks, and will require a lot of planning, hard work and investment to make it work. But I do think that it can work and that it is the right thing to do in the long term.

If Ireland was a united country, I seriously doubt that a good economic arguement could be made that partition would be better for the island economically.

briany

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-are-we-really-united-about-our-lost-fourth-green-field-37823456.html

A more realistic take on a united Ireland.

"While it sounds great to sing of an undefined and romantic united Ireland after a few drinks, the reality is that so many in this part of the island have a disconnect with Northern Ireland."

One of the more interesting points made was the following:

"The most obvious is how we would pay for the €11bn annual subvention Northern Ireland gets from the UK. In a study last year, Professors John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth said that taking on this bill would permanently reduce our standard of living by 15pc."

From what I could find, this statement seems to come from the following paper to the Dublin Economics Workshop

http://dublineconomics.com/papers/8502.pdf

Unlike the previous calculations sponsored by groups linked to Friends of Sinn Fein, John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth are respected Irish economists with an understanding of this economy. If they are really saying that unification would reduce living standards by 15%, then it should be listened to.

In a way, I could see a UI becoming a bit like Ireland's Brexit. It's a political issue with a lot of emotion around it and where the valid concerns of experts becomes lost amid nationalist, populist fervour.

And just like Brexiteers might say "I'm willing to take the hit if it means being out of the EU.", Irish nationalists might express the same kind of sentiment about a UI.

This is not to say that I'm against a UI at all, but yes it is important for the country to go into the thing with eyes wide open and have none of the sloganeering bluster that went into the Brexit referendum. Very thorough, frank conversations should be had.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-are-we-really-united-about-our-lost-fourth-green-field-37823456.html

A more realistic take on a united Ireland.

"While it sounds great to sing of an undefined and romantic united Ireland after a few drinks, the reality is that so many in this part of the island have a disconnect with Northern Ireland."

One of the more interesting points made was the following:

"The most obvious is how we would pay for the €11bn annual subvention Northern Ireland gets from the UK. In a study last year, Professors John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth said that taking on this bill would permanently reduce our standard of living by 15pc."

From what I could find, this statement seems to come from the following paper to the Dublin Economics Workshop

http://dublineconomics.com/papers/8502.pdf

Unlike the previous calculations sponsored by groups linked to Friends of Sinn Fein, John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth are respected Irish economists with an understanding of this economy. If they are really saying that unification would reduce living standards by 15%, then it should be listened to.

While the cost of unification is an open question, a figure of 11bn is hardily credible as this includes NI's notional share of the cost of defence projects such as the UK's carrier fleet and their Nuclear deterrent. Assuming a United Ireland will not try to replicate Trident and will not require a carrier fleet, then one assumes that this is a cost that will not transfer over.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that report outlines the impact if Ireland were to take on NI and simply continue running it as the British have without making any atempt to reform the NI economey and bring it into line with the rest of the country. The main point of the report being that this would be a terrible idea and as such significant resources and planning need to be dedicated to overhauling NI to make unification work.

nc6000

downcow wrote: »

Its a very small example but the history of Unifying in Ireland is not good eg Rugby team

Why is the Irish Rugby team an example of this?

cgcsb

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-are-we-really-united-about-our-lost-fourth-green-field-37823456.html

One of the more interesting points made was the following:

"The most obvious is how we would pay for the €11bn annual subvention Northern Ireland gets from the UK. In a study last year, Professors John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth said that taking on this bill would permanently reduce our standard of living by 15pc."

From what I could find, this statement seems to come from the following paper to the Dublin Economics Workshop

http://dublineconomics.com/papers/8502.pdf

Unlike the previous calculations sponsored by groups linked to Friends of Sinn Fein, John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth are respected Irish economists with an understanding of this economy. If they are really saying that unification would reduce living standards by 15%, then it should be listened to.

This has been rubbished multiple times, even by the IMF, who are not friends of SF. The Irish civil service also has produced a report on same. The budget would be balanced a lot quicker than Germany's post unification budget.

cgcsb

jm08 wrote: »

This video from the Guardian which shows varying views on the border. Some varying views from those of a unionist background - two women (from 12.4 if you don't want to watch the full video) - one young, one middle aged from Enniskillen give opposing views on the border. The young girl wants a United Ireland, the other woman (ex-army) said she wants a hard border and everything back to what it was 40 years ago! Getting rid of a flag or anthem isn't going to do it for her. Said she would get into uniform again if there was to be a United Ireland!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2019/feb/13/brexit-breakdown-fear-and-anger-on-the-irish-border-video

Grand, let her put her uniform on. she can sit in the pub and talk smack with the oul lads. See how far she gets in most catholic Fermanagh.

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-are-we-really-united-about-our-lost-fourth-green-field-37823456.html

A more realistic take on a united Ireland.

"While it sounds great to sing of an undefined and romantic united Ireland after a few drinks, the reality is that so many in this part of the island have a disconnect with Northern Ireland."

One of the more interesting points made was the following:

"The most obvious is how we would pay for the €11bn annual subvention Northern Ireland gets from the UK. In a study last year, Professors John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth said that taking on this bill would permanently reduce our standard of living by 15pc."

From what I could find, this statement seems to come from the following paper to the Dublin Economics Workshop

http://dublineconomics.com/papers/8502.pdf

Unlike the previous calculations sponsored by groups linked to Friends of Sinn Fein, John FitzGerald and Edgar Morgenroth are respected Irish economists with an understanding of this economy. If they are really saying that unification would reduce living standards by 15%, then it should be listened to.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Its such an alien idea to me. There is no way i could embrace it - Could my grandchilden? maybe

I don't want appear difficult but its a bit like if Ireland hold poll to rejoin UK and poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new UK. How would you feel then? Would you be against this new UK?

Its a very small example but the history of Unifying in Ireland is not good eg Rugby team

The Rugby team has been pretty successful, no?

I'm a northerner myself but if the shoe was on the other foot and for some reason Ireland joining the UK would secure my way of life, put food on the table and provide a stable future for my children versus an unknown uncertain future then I'd be all for it. I'm not an idealogue who is unbending to new ideas.

Yes, Ireland joining the UK is alien to me but if there are clear benefits now and in the future then I'd imagine I'd at the very least put a lot of consideration into supporting it. I certainly wouldn't write it off for them sake of holding onto an ideology that may or may not be relevant any more.

[Deleted User]

downcow, since Northern Ireland's vote means little to you in the case of Brexit, I assume you'd be happy with a united Ireland if England voted for it?

All my English friends would vote for that. Democracy.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

This video from the Guardian which shows varying views on the border. Some varying views from those of a unionist background - two women (from 12.4 if you don't want to watch the full video) - one young, one middle aged from Enniskillen give opposing views on the border. The young girl wants a United Ireland, the other woman (ex-army) said she wants a hard border and everything back to what it was 40 years ago! Getting rid of a flag or anthem isn't going to do it for her. Said she would get into uniform again if there was to be a United Ireland!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2019/feb/13/brexit-breakdown-fear-and-anger-on-the-irish-border-video

I seen that vid and actually know 3 or 4 of the people interviewed. The lady lusting after a nirvana that never really existed would not be representative. and to a large extent it is bluster, the exact same chat was heard around the AIA, The GFA, Marches and flags, she is the unionist equivalent of the fabled and equally rare 'barstool republican' and both have been performing exclusively for cameras only for years. That generation is dying out and just as young nationalists have changed and moderated so to have young unionists.

Contrary to the idea that the history of 'unifying in Ireland' has failed, it has actually worked extremely well. North South bodies now co-operate and pool resources in 150 areas.
Take the shouting and roaring out of it and 'unification' actually has a track record of being easy and more to the point, advantageous.

jm08

This video from the Guardian which shows varying views on the border. Some varying views from those of a unionist background - two women (from 12.4 if you don't want to watch the full video) - one young, one middle aged from Enniskillen give opposing views on the border. The young girl wants a United Ireland, the other woman (ex-army) said she wants a hard border and everything back to what it was 40 years ago! Getting rid of a flag or anthem isn't going to do it for her. Said she would get into uniform again if there was to be a United Ireland!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2019/feb/13/brexit-breakdown-fear-and-anger-on-the-irish-border-video

fly_agaric

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Agreed, but it's not a new union between British colonists loyal to Britain and possibly the Dutch and the rest of Ireland. It's the unification of Ireland. That said of course there needs to be big changes but including anything British would be plain silly considering moving away from Britain is the whole point.

I'd agree, but I think trying to hang onto the current symbols (tricolour, Amhrán na bhFiann) which as you can see from the thread many are very attached to would be a mistake in a UI context.
The majority are very happy with our symbols so all the "haters" can go f- themselves is not really a good start for building a new state.

I think it was posted earlier that the abortion referendum was a contentious issue decided by a simple majority. I find the example a bit jarring. Such referenda are how "we" have agreed to make decisions on the constitution of the state. All that type of thing (accepting a majority decision from a vote) is based on the axiom of as many people as possible supporting the idea of the state itself in the first place! It is a small thing but part of that is built on as many as possible, not just a simple majority, liking (or at the very least not hating) the symbols of their state...

downcow

Matt Barrett wrote: »

People keep using this 'rejoin'. We never 'joined'.
Partition happened in your Great Grandparents time and you took to it, so stands to reason a reversal would be as welcome by the next generation.

Dont really understand this. Would you be annoyed if i talked about NI rejoining Ireland - same thing i think.
And i am not sure what you mean about us 'taking to it' ? we wanted it so obviously we would take to it but it seems many of those who didn't want it have passed that down 4 generations, hence my comment that I am unsure whether my grandchildren would accept it - i guess some of them would reluctantly and others would not. Would you agree?

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

Its such an alien idea to me. There is no way i could embrace it - Could my grandchilden? maybe

I don't want appear difficult but its a bit like if Ireland hold poll to rejoin UK and poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new UK. How would you feel then? Would you be against this new UK?

Its a very small example but the history of Unifying in Ireland is not good eg Rugby team

People keep using this 'rejoin'. We never 'joined'.
Partition happened in your Great Grandparents time and you took to it, so stands to reason a reversal would be as welcome by the next generation.

briany

downcow wrote: »

Its such an alien idea to me. There is no way i could embrace it - Could my grandchilden? maybe

I don't want appear difficult but its a bit like if Ireland hold poll to rejoin UK and poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new UK. How would you feel then? Would you be against this new UK?

Its a very small example but the history of Unifying in Ireland is not good eg Rugby team

Well, put it this way, I wouldn't be prepared to watch the world burn before seeing Ireland rejoin the UK. Certainly if it was a new UK based on mutual political/cultural respect between the constituent countries, and it offered considerable economic benefits. However, by the time the former might have been true, Ireland's economy was doing well enough on its own.

I think that even if the aforementioned conditions existed to tempt certain Unionists into a United Ireland, they'd still reject it. They would literally rather watch the world burn than be a part of a United Ireland, which is sad.

downcow

circadian wrote: »

Let's just say a border poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new Ireland. Aegir, downcow et al. How would you feel then? Would you still be against this new Ireland?

Its such an alien idea to me. There is no way i could embrace it - Could my grandchilden? maybe

I don't want appear difficult but its a bit like if Ireland hold poll to rejoin UK and poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new UK. How would you feel then? Would you be against this new UK?

Its a very small example but the history of Unifying in Ireland is not good eg Rugby team

An Ciarraioch

Rather depressing that neither unionist party saw fit to attend the All-Island Civic Dialogue on Brexit today - after all, this was primarily convened to discuss the social and economic impact of Brexit in the island, rather than discussing political matters.

[Deleted User]

circadian wrote: »

Let's just say a border poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new Ireland. Aegir, downcow et al. How would you feel then? Would you still be against this new Ireland?

why ask me? other being an Irish tax payer, I have no skin in the game.

[Deleted User]

cgcsb wrote: »

So called Northern Ireland, a territory that the UK has annexed in a Crimea style to be exact. The natives are not foreigners, the colonists (most of them) self-identify as foreign.

that's a perfect example of why a united Ireland is further away than people think.

It isn't just loyalists who need an attitude change.

cgcsb

circadian wrote: »

Let's just say a border poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new Ireland. Aegir, downcow et al. How would you feel then? Would you still be against this new Ireland?

Fifth columnists are never 'happy' per say.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

So an Irish passport holder in the UK is not foreign, but a British passport holder in Ireland is??

So called Northern Ireland, a territory that the UK has annexed in a Crimea style to be exact. The natives are not foreigners, the colonists (most of them) self-identify as foreign.

[Deleted User]

Let's just say a border poll passes. All the details are ironed out, everyone is included and most political leaders agree on a way forward that benefits all in this new Ireland. Aegir, downcow et al. How would you feel then? Would you still be against this new Ireland?

[Deleted User]

Charles Babbage wrote: »

I suggest your data is out of date.

It doesn’t really matter though, does it. The point is valid.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I def did not say the bells would have to be removed. In fact I said I thought diversity should be valued.
.....and would you promote orange marches where others have prevented them? I don’t think so. Not that I am saying you should but you imply an openness which I’m not sure all you countrymen would agree with - and what then?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post when you said:

"I was amazed to see the main news begin with those bells. It would not be tolerated for five minutes up north if either side decided to try to own the news. So we have all some work still to do".

There will have to be give and take with where the marches are and to remember, ''with rights, come responsibilities.''

downcow

Big Ears wrote: »

While I agree with previous points that there's more prominent points to consider when it comes to a United Ireland than Flags.
I do find it unusual that no one had mentioned a variation of the four provinces flags that are sometimes used by All-Ireland Sports teams or organisations (such as the IRFU or Hockey Ireland, Golfing Union of Ireland, IABA etc)

These flags are inclusive by their very nature, they represent everyone on the island, and most people would already have some level of affinity to such a flag (through their province at least).
The individual provincial flags are also already displayed in our capital on O'Connell bridge.

I genuinely appreciate your attempt at inclusiveness. But I’m not sure people in roi understand how unionists look east. I was in company with a number of friends recently and rugby came up and amongst six of us we couldn’t be sure where the four provences were. 4 of us knew where Leinster was but only 2 got the other 2 correct and 2 couldn’t even name the four. It’s like you trying to name the English counties or American states. So there is no affiliation to province flags. That’s s very gaa thing or middle class rugby thing.

Charles Babbage

Aegir wrote: »

20% hold an Irish passport.

I suggest your data is out of date.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Compare the different attitudes - you think that the bells would have to be removed from the airwaves whereas I haven't heard anyone suggest anywhere that Orange Order parades should be banned (in fact, people here say they should be promoted).

I def did not say the bells would have to be removed. In fact I said I thought diversity should be valued.
.....and would you promote orange marches where others have prevented them? I don’t think so. Not that I am saying you should but you imply an openness which I’m not sure all you countrymen would agree with - and what then?

James Brown

Apart from having to accept climate change, evolution and the rights of same sex partnerships, the Unionists can continue as is pretty much. Nobody can or is interested in changing their culture, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights and civil liberties of others.

breatheme

Neither a British passport holder in Ireland is a foreigner, and neither an Irish passport holder in Britain is a foreigner. There are laws enshrining this.

[Deleted User]

cgcsb wrote: »

So are not foreign then.

So an Irish passport holder in the UK is not foreign, but a British passport holder in Ireland is??