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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Thephantomsmask

marno21 wrote: »

The gardens along that part of the Wilton Road are enormous. If you CPO'd the whole gardens on both sides you could probably triple the width of the road.

True, I lived in a house share near the credit union on the outbound side, the front garden parked 4 cars parallel to the road with a fifth pulled in perpendicular behind them if needed. Taking half the front garden would still allow parking 3 cars. The back garden was also huge, nearly twice the size of the front, so houses there would still have above average garden space if there was a CPO.

chalkitdown1

Looks like Marina Park is finally, potentially, possibly, maybe, could be going ahead.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Marina-Park-could-see-construction-begin-next-month-c1bd5da9-2f96-4a82-b09a-c6e848d80a2c-ds

Long Twitter thread with the plans here as well

https://twitter.com/CorkCraneCount/status/1095766748958203904?s=19

j8wk2feszrnpao

EdgeCase wrote: »

The way I see it with density and height is that Cork's got an option of either repeating all of Dublin's mistakes or benchmarking itself against serious midsized European cities and making a real go at being a very attractive and sustainable place to live.

We def need to grow within the city center itself, and that means going upwards. Real opportunity exists to get it right, unlike what’s happened in Dublin.

marno21

The gardens along that part of the Wilton Road are enormous. If you CPO'd the whole gardens on both sides you could probably triple the width of the road.

EdgeCase

The way I see it with density and height is that Cork's got an option of either repeating all of Dublin's mistakes or benchmarking itself against serious midsized European cities and making a real go at being a very attractive and sustainable place to live.

The paranoia about anything over a few floors in Dublin has absolutely wrecked the city's skyline to the point that it literally doesn't have one. It'd actually argue that a lot of the docklands stuff in Dublin's disproportionately low rise and looks stubby.

j8wk2feszrnpao

EnzoScifo wrote: »

The main issue is that these houses on Wilton Road are no longer suburban. As the City grows Wilton Road will become an even more important arterial route from the developed new suburbs in Curraheen and Waterfall.

Property owners now living/owning in inner districts of the enlarged City simply can't expect to hold on their overly generous front gardens. Hopefully the solution (payoff) will be sorted quickly.

Media comment like English's above certainly doesnt help though. Putting the transport needs of thousands of residents in a negative light compared to some gardens and driveways on one the busiest roads in the region is pretty poor.

They haven’t been suburban for years. Not that it matters, it’s still their property and they will be affected. But I do hope they get it sorted; I was stuff on the No8 plenty of times to know the benefit it would provide.

You’re blowing up English’s article like biased Frank did. The headline is biased towards the owners, but they are the losers in this scenario. The article itself is perfectly fine, just stating the changes with some figures used in Dublin as a guide.

EnzoScifo

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Frank has his own angles.

It’ll suck for those who lose garden/parking space on their property, but the road does need widening to have a proper bus system.

The main issue is that these houses on Wilton Road are no longer suburban. As the City grows Wilton Road will become an even more important arterial route from the developed new suburbs in Curraheen and Waterfall.

Property owners now living/owning in inner districts of the enlarged City simply can't expect to hold on their overly generous front gardens. Hopefully the solution (payoff) will be sorted quickly.

Media comment like English's above certainly doesnt help though. Putting the transport needs of thousands of residents in a negative light compared to some gardens and driveways on one the busiest roads in the region is pretty poor.

namloc1980

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

I'm really looking forward to the future of Cork. All these developments are very exciting. Fingers crossed everything gets built according to plan, and of course the upcoming transport strategy will compliment the city nicely.

If the tone of Eoin English's article is anything to go by, transport improvements in this city are going to take a long time and be subject to all sorts of complaints and objections.

j8wk2feszrnpao

marno21 wrote: »

Frank Crowley has already taken it up with him on Twitter if you want to take a look

Frank has his own angles.

It’ll suck for those who lose garden/parking space on their property, but the road does need widening to have a proper bus system.

marno21

EnzoScifo wrote: »

I think Eoin English is a decent journalist, but the angle of some of his articles are quite infuriating sometimes.

Frank Crowley has already taken it up with him on Twitter if you want to take a look

EnzoScifo

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardens-under-threat-from-cork-bus-lane-proposal-904885.html

Looks like another part BusConnects will be widening the Wilton Road between Dennehy's Cross and the Wilton Roundabout to include an outbound bus lane

I think Eoin English is a decent journalist, but the angle of some of his articles are quite infuriating sometimes.

questionmark?

Frostybrew wrote: »

EdgeCase wrote: »

Cork's got a very naturally high skyline anyway due to the hills. A few high towers aren't going to block anything.

Yes, the docklands are ideal for high rise. The opportunity is there to build a sustainable urban area that could transform the city.

Absolutely perfect for high rise the whole way down the docklands on both sides. Lets hope we see it happen and not get bogged down in objections because some don't like change.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

I'm really looking forward to the future of Cork. All these developments are very exciting. Fingers crossed everything gets built according to plan, and of course the upcoming transport strategy will compliment the city nicely.

Frostybrew

EdgeCase wrote: »

Cork's got a very naturally high skyline anyway due to the hills. A few high towers aren't going to block anything.

Yes, the docklands are ideal for high rise. The opportunity is there to build a sustainable urban area that could transform the city.

EdgeCase

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Ruin the view for whom? The birds?

Surely it would enhance the split since it'd be sitting right in the middle of it?

Cork's got a very naturally high skyline anyway due to the hills. A few high towers aren't going to block anything.

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardens-under-threat-from-cork-bus-lane-proposal-904885.html

Looks like another part BusConnects will be widening the Wilton Road between Dennehy's Cross and the Wilton Roundabout to include an outbound bus lane

opus

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Former-Cork-Coca-Cola-plant-is-acquired-by-UK-student-apartment-developer-062afe81-d738-43bf-bace-865e44bd89d1-ds

75 extra student apartments sought for the former Coca Cola bottling plant

j8wk2feszrnpao

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I agree with them on some things, disagree on others. There's no doubt though that if we listened far more to the likes of An Taisce than the cowboys in the past, not just limited to the boom, then our we'd have much better towns and cities and have our roads as clogged up with traffic from one offs.

The cowboys and An Taisce are the two polar extremes; neither should have a strong say.

cgcsb

Mefistofelino wrote: »

There’s something very "off" about the proposed tower. Leaving aside the fact that it would be an absolute pig to construct – water on three sides so everything has to be built via the Western face, no on-site contractor areas or laydown areas, a massive amount of piling.

having water on 3 sides is a god send for contractors, the risk assesment and on construction impact assessment gets very easy when you have no neighbours.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

Forgetting too that the only vehicular access for an operating 40 story building including a hotel will be along Andersons Quay and there would be no provision for on-site parking (at least in any of the architectural sketches).

Modern developments have little/no parking, same of every current office development, about 1 space per hundred staff. Access is by sustainable modes

Mefistofelino wrote: »

It looks like a very expensive build that could be achieved a hundred metres away on Kennedy Quay for far less. Current New York building costs (where they actually have a proven track record of delivering tall buildings) for a 40 storey tower would put the project at around €275 million (developer is currently saying €250 million so that roughly tallies). Given the issues with site access and a lack of experience in tall builds here, that figure could easily breach €300 million. For comparison, Navigation House and One Albert Quay are working out about half of the cost per sq meter. Are tenants going to pay twice the rate just so they can sit higher in the sky?

Pretty much every large engineering/construction firm in the state is part of an international chain now, experience will be part of the criteria for appointing a contractor.

Mefistofelino wrote: »

I wonder if this is just some sort of distraction. The developers probably want to build something smaller and will ultimately be able to sell their actual intent as a “compromise” to a 40 storey tower.

probably

woohoo!!!

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Markcheese wrote: »

To me, the alternative to an Taisce is some crank serial objectors taking every devopment to the supreme Court (like apple in athlone)..

That sounds like what an Taisce are to be honest.

We have a planning process, where there should be the correct professionals to counter/debate as required. A private lobbyist body with far too much influence like an Taisce shouldn't be required, esp when they hinder development on bogus grounds.

I agree with them on some things, disagree on others. There's no doubt though that if we listened far more to the likes of An Taisce than the cowboys in the past, not just limited to the boom, then our we'd have much better towns and cities and have our roads as clogged up with traffic from one offs.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Markcheese wrote: »

To me, the alternative to an Taisce is some crank serial objectors taking every devopment to the supreme Court (like apple in athlone)..

That sounds like what an Taisce are to be honest.

We have a planning process, where there should be the correct professionals to counter/debate as required. A private lobbyist body with far too much influence like an Taisce shouldn't be required, esp when they hinder development on bogus grounds.

Mefistofelino

Deleted User wrote: »

It is the way of things, ask for the impossible and "accept" the smaller project.
I still would not see it as being an impossible build, however. It's not like the proposers are new to the big build game.

No, but the contractors who have to deliver it are. Not many would have done work over ten storeys or currently have the plant to support it.

[Deleted User]

Mefistofelino wrote: »

I wonder if this is just some sort of distraction. The developers probably want to build something smaller and will ultimately be able to sell their actual intent as a “compromise” to a 40 storey tower.

It is the way of things, ask for the impossible and "accept" the smaller project.
I still would not see it as being an impossible build, however. It's not like the proposers are new to the big build game.

Mefistofelino

There’s something very "off" about the proposed tower. Leaving aside the fact that it would be an absolute pig to construct – water on three sides so everything has to be built via the Western face, no on-site contractor areas or laydown areas, a massive amount of piling. Forgetting too that the only vehicular access for an operating 40 story building including a hotel will be along Andersons Quay and there would be no provision for on-site parking (at least in any of the architectural sketches).

All the images show that the building has a ground floor footprint defined by the current edges of the quay walls and then steps in considerably by the 4th floor. Problem is, that site is already very small – less than 40m wide at it’s widest so the main section of the tower would probably be 25-30m wide – about the width of three standard semi-ds. 40 stories of, say, 25m x 50m give a floor area than is, at best, only slightly larger than Navigation Square. All the “visualisations” show a building considerable wider than that.

It looks like a very expensive build that could be achieved a hundred metres away on Kennedy Quay for far less. Current New York building costs (where they actually have a proven track record of delivering tall buildings) for a 40 storey tower would put the project at around €275 million (developer is currently saying €250 million so that roughly tallies). Given the issues with site access and a lack of experience in tall builds here, that figure could easily breach €300 million. For comparison, Navigation House and One Albert Quay are working out about half of the cost per sq meter. Are tenants going to pay twice the rate just so they can sit higher in the sky?

I wonder if this is just some sort of distraction. The developers probably want to build something smaller and will ultimately be able to sell their actual intent as a “compromise” to a 40 storey tower.

[Deleted User]

Markcheese wrote: »

"Get these big builds up and running, blow through an Taisce, promote high density. More that they do now the better."

And that's exactly why an taisce are there, to counter the "progress for progress sake", and to promote debate... The big builds are up and running in Cork (look at Penrose wharf, and hogan's Quay, as well as tivoli and the South docks, and an taisce didn't say boo...)

To me, the alternative to an Taisce is some crank serial objectors taking every devopment to the supreme Court (like apple in athlone)..
The prisim is a test case for cork, its pushing boundaries and deserves consideration..

May deserve consideration if it was for a real objection not some "vista" from a random street corner thrown in.
Objections based on road suitability, effect on neighbouring business, public transport options, location (no way should there be highrise in Glanmire) are all good options but An Taisce go beyond their remit and throw objections to things on spurious grounds.

I, for one, would prefer to see street widening and straightening as part of any development plan and not stick with middle-age river channel pathways as the road layout.
No one is calling for development for development's sake, but Cork needs to counter the sprawl which has crippled Dublin.
High density living and employment buildings (mixed or single use) are what is needed to allow the city centre to come back to life. Especially without commitments to build new road infrastructure (north ring) or massive public transport options.

Height is not being proposed for the sake of it, it is a real necessity.

And as for serial objectors, there needs to be a faster and formal state mechanism dedicated to planning (with a final say) and not clogging up the courts system.
Serial objectors (like An Taisce to be honest) know that, often, they do not even need to have a case and that the time/cost in defending an application can cause a project to fail or not even be considered

Markcheese

"Get these big builds up and running, blow through an Taisce, promote high density. More that they do now the better."

And that's exactly why an taisce are there, to counter the "progress for progress sake", and to promote debate... The big builds are up and running in Cork (look at Penrose wharf, and hogan's Quay, as well as tivoli and the South docks, and an taisce didn't say boo...)

To me, the alternative to an Taisce is some crank serial objectors taking every devopment to the supreme Court (like apple in athlone)..
The prisim is a test case for cork, its pushing boundaries and deserves consideration..

[Deleted User]

Markcheese wrote: »

I like the port of Cork Tower idea, (although I have trouble visualising that height in that location), but because of the river it doesn't really have close neighbours... (except the brick bonded stores, which can't rise beyond its 2 storeys),
The prisim is a bit different, it's completely filling its site (and more) , it has close neighbours, its a seriously tall building for its location..Its a serious change in development style for cork...
I'm not saying it shouldn't be built as currently planned, but it deserves serious thought as to Wether it fits corks vision for the future... And ABP, will rule on that soon enough, (if cork city council have to have a think about their plans for the Eastern city, and change things to suit then fine.)

A lot of landmark towers have plazas and lower buildings next to them specifically for isolating the building and making it somewhat imposing. No issue with that.

Cork's issue is that it would be first really. If there were 30+ floor towers across the river, there would be no problem with having a landmark tower at that site

Markcheese

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=156574204&postcount=146

Gotta hand it to Cork City Council, at least they are trying to get the Prism built and remove the fear of tall buildings, unlike Dublin.

I like the port of Cork Tower idea, (although I have trouble visualising that height in that location), but because of the river it doesn't really have close neighbours... (except the brick bonded stores, which can't rise beyond its 2 storeys),
The prisim is a bit different, it's completely filling its site (and more) , it has close neighbours, its a seriously tall building for its location..Its a serious change in development style for cork...
I'm not saying it shouldn't be built as currently planned, but it deserves serious thought as to Wether it fits corks vision for the future... And ABP, will rule on that soon enough, (if cork city council have to have a think about their plans for the Eastern city, and change things to suit then fine.)

[Deleted User]

Markcheese wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much,
We'll have a decent, integrated public transport system in Cork decades before a united Ireland (for better or worse).

Maybe, maybe not but they would be fools to not consider it in long term planning.

Get these big builds up and running, blow through an Taisce, promote high density. More that they do now the better.

I would love that tower to be built there. It is a perfect place for it. Key view of the city from the river, lower road and the heart of the city will move to the docks sooner rather than later

Markcheese

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Having Belfast in the ROI may actually elevate Cork above regional city status to something like Belfast.

I wouldn't worry too much,
We'll have a decent, integrated public transport system in Cork decades before a united Ireland (for better or worse).