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Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

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Dyr

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

NI doesn't have a flag or an anthem, the United Kingdom does

We can come up with a compromise though, something that would express the equal standing given to both communities and expressed a desire to see them both coexist harmoniously

I'm trying to think what such a flag would like

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

I think, seeing that you are a democrat, if there is a vote for a united Ireland that the whole island should vote on which flag and anthem the country should accept. Would you agree with this?

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

Why would a unified Ireland adopt "God Save the Queen" as its anthem? I mean surely even you can see how comically stupid that sounds.

I'm praying to Jesus you come back and try to give a logical reason for why. I'm the mood for a side-splitting laugh.

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

Im not saying it is im just making the point that the nationalist feeling which would be required for a passing border poll in Ireland would be very difficult to sell along with the idea of we change our flag and anthem. For the same reason people say the tricolour is unacceptable to unionists as so many ira/SF members have been buried with it on their coffins it would be unthinkable for SF to back getting rid of it even if the result was a UI.

I do find it ironic you claiming it would be arrogant for Unionists to have to accept the tricolour and our anthem when you've previously been arguing for the ROI to basically do whatever the UK wants as regards brexit....

seamus

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI.

Well, lexically that makes sense. It's unification of the whole island, called "Ireland". Since the official name of the Republic is "Ireland", then a unified island will also be called "Ireland", not "The United state of Ireland and Northern Ireland".

Beyond that, nobody has really given it proper thought because a border poll was not on the horizon.

Naturally as one would expect where two jurisdictions merge, the seat of parliament would be in the larger one. But it's possible that the Northern Assembly could be maintained - perhaps if each province had its own assembly, with a smaller Dail, we might get more done.

Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

It's pure assumption. From the standpoint of someone in the Republic - this is Ireland, and the North is a subjugated territory. This logically follows on that everything about it, including flags or anthems, are products of the occupier and will therefore will rejected when unification takes place.

Like I say, nobody has really thought about it seriously. And that's probably because if a TD was to come out and say that Amhrán Na Bhfiann will be/won't be the anthem of a United Ireland, then they're causing a sh1tstorm for themselves for no good reason.

To a certain extent, people are likely also taking cues from German unification. When Germany unified, they didn't adopt a new flag. Unified Germany used the new Federal Republic flag. The symbols of the subjugated territory (east Germany) were discarded.

Personally I feel that the current Irish flag is more than adequate to represent the entire island, as that's its intent in the first place. It's not a statement of anger against the British or a symbol of rebellion. It's a statement of peace.
The anthem may need changing to something less IRA-ish though.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would a unified Ireland adopt "God Save the Queen" as its anthem? I mean surely even you can see how comically stupid that sounds.

I'm praying to Jesus you come back and try to give a logical reason for why. I'm the mood for a side-splitting laugh.

I agree, absolutely ridiculous. But What I can’t get is why you cannot are that it would be equally ridiculous to have the soldiers song and the tricolour. Why would a new shared ireland have that.

...and in your own words. I'm praying to Jesus you come back and try to give a logical reason for why. I'm the mood for a side-splitting laugh

Skelet0n

Bambi wrote: »

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

NI doesn't have a flag or an anthem, the United Kingdom does

We can come up with a compromise though, something that would express the equal standing given to both communities and expressed a desire to see them both coexist harmoniously

I'm trying to think what such a flag would like

Something with green for the Irish and orange for the British, maybe?
Maybe something similar to the Ivory Coast’s flag?

downcow

I have jumped across from the brexit thread and speed read this thread.
I think it is very refreshing that people are talking about various options rather than the binary two. Unfortunately there is no space in the gfa for any innovative ideas in ways forward. Not even an independent NI

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

A nations symbols should reflect it's people. The Unionist tradition in the north east of the island will be a small minority in a UI. The PUL community will be a regional minority ethnic group whose culture and traditions should enjoy legal protection and access to funding etc in a UI, but should not expect to be given the same prominance as the culture and traditions and symbols that represent the vast majority of the population.

Unionists can expect to enjoy a similar place in a UI that the Welsh have in the UK, equall citizens with equal rights, freedom and legal protecton to practice their own traditions, but it is not the Welsh flag nor the Welsh anthem that represents the UK and no one would expect it to.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Interesting on here people’s perspective of UI is that roi absorbs NI. Well I am assuming that when you say the anthem and flag is precious and cannot be changed you are not referring to the flag and anthem of NI but rather roi. This is a tad arrogant is it not? If there was unification why would you anthem and flag be more precious than mine ? Serious question that will help me understand what this ireland of equals within the Eu would look like.

For a UI to work, it will need to absorb NI. As seen with the GFA, when left to its own devices, Stormont has been unable to get away from sectarian politics. That politics needs to be diluted into normal democratic politics. I don't think Irish people will have a problem with being generous to unionists / people who identify as British and making sure they feel comfortable in a united Ireland.

jm08

seamus wrote: »

Naturally as one would expect where two jurisdictions merge, the seat of parliament would be in the larger one. But it's possible that the Northern Assembly could be maintained - perhaps if each province had its own assembly, with a smaller Dail, we might get more done.

Ireland is too small to have regional assemblies other than maybe upgrading Co. Councils to give them more power.

Stormont seems to be a cesspool of sectarianism, so I think it needs to be shut down.

What I think would be good would be maybe for the Dail to sit in Stormont for 1 week a month which would help unionists see that the Dail is as much their parliament as it is ours.

[Deleted User]

Skelet0n wrote: »

Something with green for the Irish and orange for the British, maybe?
Maybe something similar to the Ivory Coast’s flag?

Why Orange for the British?

[Deleted User]

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A nations symbols should reflect it's people. The Unionist tradition in the north east of the island will be a small minority in a UI. The PUL community will be a regional minority ethnic group whose culture and traditions should enjoy legal protection and access to funding etc in a UI, but should not expect to be given the same prominance as the culture and traditions and symbols that represent the vast majority of the population.

Maybe not, but if those communities find the current symbols and anthem abhorrent, then the government would have to take this in to consideration and act with "Rigorous Impartiality".

Imreoir2

segarox wrote: »

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

Definatly talking rubbish, there is no option for that under the GFA, the only option is to join with Ireland. After that, decisions are made by the island as a whole, not one or the other part of it seperatly. A UI could choose to devide itself internally in that way, but I can't see much of a case for it.

blanch152

breatheme wrote: »

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, because based on the current state of affairs, I think that a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is the most likely outcome.

I do think that a UK in the EU negates the possibility of a border poll to happen in the decades to come.

I think a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is a real possibility in the short term. But two things. Firstly, agreeing and organising a border poll this year given other priorities because of Brexit is extremely unlikely no matter what happens on March 29. For a start, any border poll would have to set out the parameters of what is being proposed which will require discussion between Dublin and London. How likely is that to happen quickly?

Secondly, it will become apparent later this year that a long-term close relationship with the EU will be needed, and given that the opinion poll you reference changes depending on the nature of the long-term relationship between the UK and the EU, delaying a border poll until that long-term relationship is clear is the most sensible thing to do.

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

NI doesn't have a flag or an anthem, the United Kingdom does

We can come up with a compromise though, something that would express the equal standing given to both communities and expressed a desire to see them both coexist harmoniously

I'm trying to think what such a flag would like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A nations symbols should reflect it's people. The Unionist tradition in the north east of the island will be a small minority in a UI. The PUL community will be a regional minority ethnic group whose culture and traditions should enjoy legal protection and access to funding etc in a UI, but should not expect to be given the same prominance as the culture and traditions and symbols that represent the vast majority of the population.

Unionists can expect to enjoy a similar place in a UI that the Welsh have in the UK, equall citizens with equal rights, freedom and legal protecton to practice their own traditions, but it is not the Welsh flag nor the Welsh anthem that represents the UK and no one would expect it to.

That reads like something Edward Carson might have said in the 1920s about Northern Ireland.

Imreoir2

Aegir wrote: »

Maybe not, but if those communities find the current symbols and anthem abhorrent, then the government would have to take this in to consideration and act with "Rigorous Impartiality".

The UK has roundly faild to act given the abhorrence with with many nationalists in NI view British symbols. Lets not forget that while many IRA men's coffins were draped with the tri-colour, many B-specials coffins were draped with the Union Jack. There are no neutral symbols here.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

That reads like something Edward Carson might have said in the 1920s about Northern Ireland.

Thats nice. Personally I don't think we should promote a false equlivance between the traditions on this island or set up Unionists to have unrealistic expectations. It is quite likely and in my opinion preferable that the symbols of Ireland become the symbols of a new united Ireland.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

What about not?

We can use the erin go bragh flag, it was also the UDR's cap badge so it's not like the other lot can complain about it much.

Not only would we have the only musical instrument on a national flag we'd also have a pair of knockers too.

jm08

Bambi wrote: »

What about not?

We can use the erin go bragh flag, it was also the UDR's cap badge so it's not like the other lot can complain about it much.

Not only would we have the only musical instrument on a national flag we'd also have a pair of knockers too.

Royal Irish Regiment have that harp as their emblem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Irish_Regiment_(1992)

breatheme

blanch152 wrote: »

I think a cliff-edge no deal Brexit is a real possibility in the short term. But two things. Firstly, agreeing and organising a border poll this year given other priorities because of Brexit is extremely unlikely no matter what happens on March 29. For a start, any border poll would have to set out the parameters of what is being proposed which will require discussion between Dublin and London. How likely is that to happen quickly?

Not necessarily. Organising the border poll in NI falls on the UK, and I wouldn't past them.

Secondly, it will become apparent later this year that a long-term close relationship with the EU will be needed, and given that the opinion poll you reference changes depending on the nature of the long-term relationship between the UK and the EU, delaying a border poll until that long-term relationship is clear is the most sensible thing to do.

Again, this is assuming the UK's government is competent, but I keep getting the impression that they're not. A lot of this sounds like 2015's "the UK will never vote to leave the EU."

[Deleted User]

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The UK has roundly faild to act given the abhorrence with with many nationalists in NI view British symbols. Lets not forget that while many IRA men's coffins were draped with the tri-colour, many B-specials coffins were draped with the Union Jack. There are no neutral symbols here.

Which would be valid, if someone was proposing the union flag was adopted, but they’re not.

James Brown

It makes no sense including the trappings of a people opposed to a united Ireland in the symbols of a united Ireland.
The red hand of Ulster is there and they took to that.
We would need a different flag.

An Ciarraioch

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

Imreoir2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

National symbols like flags are not corporate logos, they don't have to be neutral. The tri-colour as a national symbol has represented Ireland for over 100 years and I don't think there is a good reason to drop it in a UI. The justification for doing so seems to be to placate unionists, but it won't placate unionists. They will be equally opposed to a united Ireland under any flag. On the other hand, andoning the nations symbols merly creates a greivence among nationalists at their abandoment while at the same time making them available for uncontested use by disedent republicens and far right wing groups.

In short you achieve nothing more than annoying the greatest supporters of a United Ireland, northern nationalists, while doing nothing to satisfy its greatest opponents, northern unionists.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

National symbols like flags are not corporate logos, they don't have to be neutral. The tri-colour as a national symbol has represented Ireland for over 100 years and I don't think there is a good reason to drop it in a UI. The justification for doing so seems to be to placate unionists, but it won't placate unionists. They will be equally opposed to a united Ireland under any flag. On the other hand, andoning the nations symbols merly creates a greivence among nationalists at their abandoment while at the same time making them available for uncontested use by disedent republicens and far right wing groups.

In short you achieve nothing more than annoying the greatest supporters of a United Ireland, northern nationalists, while doing nothing to satisfy its greatest opponents, northern unionists.

There is a very good reason to drop the tricolour - it alienates a significant proportion of the population.

Those wishing to retain it have the same triumphalist mentality as the Northern Ireland state before civil rights.

Symbolism is important. Both northern unionists and northern nationalists need to know that a united Ireland doesn't mean reversing roles.

Peregrinus

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves choosing the emblems for a united Irish state. Just sayin'.

[Deleted User]

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves choosing the emblems for a united Irish state. Just sayin'.

I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos.

For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there.

If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position.

I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;

"What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."

Havockk

blanch152 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Saltire

How about St. Patrick's Saltire?

If it was removed from the British flag, it would symbolise independence.

Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.