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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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[Deleted User]

Fizzy Duck wrote: »

I'm happy enough. Nearly a year there now.

Happy with a 29cent an hour pay rise. Good man.

Fizzy Duck

soundman45 wrote: »

Fizzy Duck wrote: »

I'm happy enough. Nearly a year there now.

Happy with a 29cent an hour pay rise. Good man.

Thanks

LuckyLloyd

The more GAI miss their launch dates and operate their routes inefficiently the increasingly fascinated I become about the tenders. I surely can’t be the only one?

[Deleted User]

Dates are being put back as they cannot recruit experienced drivers, if you are a D licence holder they will hire you on the spot if you call into the depot, they cannot train new drivers fast enough to fill the numbers needed, and surprisingly a huge number of drivers have already packed it in and gone to DB to do the same job but get the proper pay and condition that drivers deserve.

AngryLips

Has anyone else noticed how filthy the outside of the new GA busses are? This doesn’t bode well for how the interiors will hold up over time.

john boye

AngryLips wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how filthy the outside of the new GA busses are? This doesn’t bode well for how the interiors will hold up over time.

Funnily enough, I only remarked to myself recently how all the ones I've seen during the recent bad weather have looked pretty spotless. I'm not seeing them everyday though.

Stephen15

AngryLips wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how filthy the outside of the new GA busses are? This doesn’t bode well for how the interiors will hold up over time.

I've noticed a few that were quite dirty, but I've also noticed a similar number of DB buses that were similarly dirty at the same time. During the winter vehicles are generally more susceptible to picking up dirt and grime. I would imagine they are washed every night as is generally industry practice.

punisher5112

See a lot going around with considerable damage to the bodies.

Certain routes get dirtier then others and there was a day a few weeks back db had issues with a wash one of the nights.

If there is a longer hold up then the 155 will be longer waiting to come in also.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

If there is a longer hold up then the 155 will be longer waiting to come in also.

The 18 and 76/a aren't moving until the 24th March from what I believe so that will be when the 155 starts I'd imagine. I believe they are waiting for the delivery of 8 more new SGs.

StreetLight

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1094529564892643329

In response to a Twitter query on the takeover of the 18 route, Go Ahead state that the 24th of March is the date.

GM228

AlekSmart wrote: »

No thanks,I prefer the centrifugal force which comes from going round & round.

A well known phrase "all talk...." comes to mind

Seriously though if you feel so strongly about the subject I fail to see why you don't make the very basic initial first steps to get the information you seek and see how it goes? If you are willing to just ride the merry go round then it is unlikely what you seek will come to the public domain, ever.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Having ordinary decent folk,resort to challenging arcane Legal precedent stretching back centuries,is not where a 21st Century Public Transport Authority should be,in terms of Public Accountability.

Arcane?

You do realise that most common law develops over time don't you? It's not a case of a 100 year old rule being followed to the letter, rather the origins of a principle, doctrine, rule etc may date back a long time, but are regularly tested, modified, enhanced (or simply upheld) as times change. The historical jurisprudence in any particular field can be very interesting, but quite different today.

Some of the most prominent court decisions on matters concerning commercial sensitivity have occurred in very recent years, yes in the 21st century, not centuries ago, cases involving discovery regularly deal with the issue when applying the principles of relevance and necessity seeking discovery of commercially sensitive documents. For example the 2013 Supreme Court Framus Ltd & Ors vs C.R.H Plc & Ors [2013] IESC 23 case is a recent case confirming the principles of commercial sensitivity.

FOI is no different, the 2013 Supreme Court Governors of the Hospital for the Relief of Poor Lying in Women vs Information Commissioner [2013] 1 I.R. 1 case is a authorative case on the issue of FOI and the public interest and is the case which confirmed the ICO does not have the authority to make something a public interest, the interest must be a genuine established public interest, not an interest of yours.

I really don't understand why people slam laws as archaic or slam them when they simply don't understand or accept their reasoning, history and modern application. The various principles are well grounded and well discussed in the modern era, our (and others) judiciary have deemed them appropriate and continue to uphold them.

AlekSmart wrote: »

In reality,it should be up to JJ Kavanagh,the Go-Ahead Group,or whichever Tenderer desires a cloak of secrecy around their business,to justify this,rather than the General Public being forced to head for the 4 Courts.

They don't have to justify it unless someone makes a FOI request, that is the law.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Being forced to submit a FoI request,to access the mundane specifications of a Public Bus Service Contract is about the least democratic thing a Citizen of any Republic should have to do.

Yes being "forced" to make a FOI request is such a non democratic inhumane thing to do, mite even be a breach of some right, mayby a case stated to the ECHR or the ECJ is the appropriate course of action, oh wait, that's right it's an accepted measure under statute, common law and within the principles of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or for example under the UNECE Aarhus Convention in relation to Environmental information.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'll just have to wait it out,until the Authority eventually has to make it's choice.

It all comes to those who wait...even,occasionally,a Bus.

What choice? They have already stated they won't be released. You may be waiting a long time for any other choice.

ax586

AngryLips wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how filthy the outside of the new GA busses are? This doesn’t bode well for how the interiors will hold up over time.

They had a problem a while back with the washer..but when it's working they get washed every night

Yer Da sells Avon

soundman45 wrote: »

Dates are being put back as they cannot recruit experienced drivers, if you are a D licence holder they will hire you on the spot if you call into the depot, they cannot train new drivers fast enough to fill the numbers needed, and surprisingly a huge number of drivers have already packed it in and gone to DB to do the same job but get the proper pay and condition that drivers deserve.

Dates are being put back as they don't have enough buses. There are always plenty of spare drivers sitting in the canteen, so there's no driver shortage. The driving school is currently winding down and the instructors who came over from the UK are going back soon (it'll start up again in a few months in preparation for the Bus Éireann routes).

Pay is on par with other private operators - Dublin Bus wages are just extraordinarily high. However, Go-Ahead will have no choice but to bridge the gap. Otherwise they're just going to end up providing expensive training to future Dublin Bus drivers. Among the drivers who've applied to Dublin Bus are quite a few people who arrived at Ballymount with B licences a few months ago. A few Sundays with DB and they'll have that training indemnity bond paid off.

punisher5112 wrote:

See a lot going around with considerable damage to the bodies.

Inexperienced drivers are inevitably going to have bumps and scrapes, especially when they have to drive those long and cumbersome single-deckers through narrow country roads. The aforementioned shortage of buses means that Go-Ahead has been a bit slow in getting scratches and dents fixed.

Stephen15

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Dates are being put back as they don't have enough buses. There are always plenty of spare drivers sitting in the canteen, so there's no driver shortage. The driving school is currently winding down and the instructors who came over from the UK are going back soon (it'll start up again in a few months in preparation for the Bus Éireann routes).

Pay is on par with other private operators - Dublin Bus wages are just extraordinarily high. However, Go-Ahead will have no choice but to bridge the gap. Otherwise they're just going to end up providing expensive training to future Dublin Bus drivers. Among the drivers who've applied to Dublin Bus are quite a few people who arrived at Ballymount with B licences a few months ago. A few Sundays with DB and they'll have that training indemnity bond paid off.

I've heard they'll be recruiting again in March for B licence holders. I've heard but I'm not sure if it's true that GAI are offering drivers better hours such as more weekends off than DB but obviously with the drawback of lower pay. Also DB seem to have more perks and increments such as free GP care for themselves and a family member, free bus travel and discounts on rail aswell as better pensions which may make it more attractive for older drivers as I've noticed a lot of the GAI drivers seem to be younger than their DB counterparts.

Is there a spare rota in GAI where drivers are only given 24 hours notice of their shift?

Yer Da sells Avon

Stephen15 wrote: »

Is there a spare rota in GAI where drivers are only given 24 hours notice of their shift?

There are spare rotas, north and south, but spare drivers tend to get duties allocated to them before the start of the week, depending on what's available. If they aren't given a duty, they're marked down as 'SP' (spare) for that day, and will know their start time in advance (it could be as early as 4:40am or as late as 4pm). A spare shift is usually eight hours long, but it could overrun if someone calls in sick at the last minute and a spare driver who happens to be in the canteen, and knows the route, is given that duty.

punisher5112

db doctor isn't free but it is there for the kids and spouse.

It works out at around €150 for the year.

Stephen15

So GAI have confirmed it appears that the 18 and 76/a will transfer on the 24th March

https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1095302648645996544?s=19

AlekSmart

GM228 wrote: »

A well known phrase "all talk...." comes to mind
SNIP/
FOI is no different, the 2013 Supreme Court Governors of the Hospital for the Relief of Poor Lying in Women vs Information Commissioner [2013] 1 I.R. 1 case is a authorative case on the issue of FOI and the public interest and is the case which confirmed the ICO does not have the authority to make something a public interest, the interest must be a genuine established public interest, not an interest of yours.
SNIP/
Yes being "forced" to make a FOI request is such a non democratic inhumane thing to do, mite even be a breach of some right, mayby a case stated to the ECHR or the ECJ is the appropriate course of action, oh wait, that's right it's an accepted measure under statute, common law and within the principles of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or for example under the UNECE Aarhus Convention in relation to Environmental information.

What choice? They have already stated they won't be released. You may be waiting a long time for any other choice.

I'm patient enough.

I remain very confident that the Schedule of the Go Ahead Ireland Tendered PSO Contract with the National Transport Authority,willbe made public.

I suggest that this will occur within six months.

"All talk",as you may wish to deem it,but hey,it's better than no talk at all..... Jaw Jaw..;) ?

GM228

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm patient enough.

I remain very confident that the Schedule of the Go Ahead Ireland Tendered PSO Contract with the National Transport Authority,willbe made public.

I suggest that this will occur within six months.

"All talk",as you may wish to deem it,but hey,it's better than no talk at all..... Jaw Jaw..;) ?

We can revisit this in 6 months and see if the merry go round has run out of steam yet.

AlekSmart

GM228 wrote: »

We can revisit this in 6 months and see if the merry go round has run out of steam yet.

It'll be hybrid powered by then

Dravokivich

Anyone here who's been involved in transitioning business from one service provider to another has expected this to occur. Someone can be accountable, but it's by no means a surprise or shock to most of us.

CramCycle

My company once won a government tender and the date to take over was the 1st October of that year. All of our ducks in a row and no samples turned up the first day. The company that lost the tender kept taking in samples and running the test. Even worse, they apparently got paid for it as well. It took a month before the legal threats got serious and they stopped collecting the samples. Our contract was to be paid by the test, so we lost a huge amount that month, the other side did not get punished in anyway.

There are always issues, and that is too be expected, but be under no illusion that all it takes is a few people causing issues on one side for it to be a bigger problem.

Not saying this is what happened here, if GAI were not ready, NTA would be foolish not too pull some of their money back for non delivery. If it is the NTAs fault, GAI should rightly get paid for being ready to deliver the service.

It would be interesting to hear whose fault it really is and what measures are being taken to correct such issues for the future, or if there are such measures in place already.

Stephen15

The problem wasn't to do with GAI it's because the NTA haven't given GAI enough buses to be able to take over the 18 and 76/a. 8 more are on the way.

ax586

It's the first I heard of it and I work for GAI..maybe if the NTA just stuck to double deckers instead of ordering single deckers from the start we wouldn't be in this mess all I know is NTA didn't give enough buses to GAI and GAI told them this a long time ago.

Stephen15

ax586 wrote: »

It's the first I heard of it and I work for GAI..maybe if the NTA just stuck to double deckers instead of ordering single deckers from the start we wouldn't be in this mess all I know is NTA didn't give enough buses to GAI and GAI told them this a long time ago.

There are some routes that don't really require double decker buses such the 33b, 104, 111, 185, 220, 238 and 239 etc. The lesser used routes problem was that the NTA didn't use much foresight when ordering them as the buses ordered were very poor and they ordered too many 40 was too many 20 of the shorter wheelbase Streetlites probably would've have done and they would've been able to run the 59.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

There are some routes that don't really require double decker buses such the 33b, 104, 111, 185, 220, 238 and 239 etc. The lesser used routes problem was that the NTA didn't use much foresight when ordering them as the buses ordered were very poor and they ordered too many 40 was too many 20 of the shorter wheelbase Streetlites probably would've have done and they would've been able to run the 59.

With all due respect Stephen,the vehicle requirements of the 10% were of long-standing,and well understood across the sector.

As a generalization,it is accurate to state,that where issues occurred,these largely centred on a LACK of capacity,across many of the routes,rather than ideological issues surrounding Single vs Double deck working.

Given that one of the reasonings behind the BMO process,is the desireability of increasing patronage across the Bus Service in general,it can surely be seen that suddenly departing from long-standing Bus Specification practice,at this juncture,has been less than desireable in terms of Positive Customer Experience.

The Authority does not appear to have carried out anything close to a full appraisal & testing process,to arrive at an acceptable vehicle specification for Single Deck vehicles,opting instead to continue with a "Prefferred Supplier" rationale for the order.

(Whilst the Wrights Streetlite is considered popular across the UK Bus Management scene,it remains somewhat less so with Operations Staff and Customers)

Equally,the Wrights/Volvo B5 combination we know as the SG class,is experiencing considerable and ongoing engine and emission control issues,currently covered by Volvo warranty,a situation which cannot be maintained long-term.

Current Industry chaff indicates that,Volvo may soon announce an 8 litre Six Cylinder replacement for the 5.1 Litre Four Cylinder engine which is currently struggling to deliver Volvo's promised 10% improvement in Fuel Economy across the board.

With so much of the Authority's engineering acumen now being directed at the Alternative Fuel issue,there may be a danger of it losing sight of the more basic requirements of choosing vehicles,which will have a low overall life-cost during a 14 year life span,rather than merely shiny new-stuff for Ministers to pose in front of.

punisher5112

Hybrid is meant to be from mid to late this year onwards and full EV are on trial also.

Stephen15

AlekSmart wrote: »

With all due respect Stephen,the vehicle requirements of the 10% were of long-standing,and well understood across the sector.

As a generalization,it is accurate to state,that where issues occurred,these largely centred on a LACK of capacity,across many of the routes,rather than ideological issues surrounding Single vs Double deck working.

Given that one of the reasonings behind the BMO process,is the desireability of increasing patronage across the Bus Service in general,it can surely be seen that suddenly departing from long-standing Bus Specification practice,at this juncture,has been less than desireable in terms of Positive Customer Experience.

The Authority does not appear to have carried out anything close to a full appraisal & testing process,to arrive at an acceptable vehicle specification for Single Deck vehicles,opting instead to continue with a "Prefferred Supplier" rationale for the order.

(Whilst the Wrights Streetlite is considered popular across the UK Bus Management scene,it remains somewhat less so with Operations Staff and Customers)

Equally,the Wrights/Volvo B5 combination we know as the SG class,is experiencing considerable and ongoing engine and emission control issues,currently covered by Volvo warranty,a situation which cannot be maintained long-term.

Current Industry chaff indicates that,Volvo may soon announce an 8 litre Six Cylinder replacement for the 5.1 Litre Four Cylinder engine which is currently struggling to deliver Volvo's promised 10% improvement in Fuel Economy across the board.

With so much of the Authority's engineering acumen now being directed at the Alternative Fuel issue,there may be a danger of it losing sight of the more basic requirements of choosing vehicles,which will have a low overall life-cost during a 14 year life span,rather than merely shiny new-stuff for Ministers to pose in front of.

Well generally people will complain about a lack of capacity rather than an abundance of capacity. I would firmly be of the opinion the it doesn't matter if a bus is double or single deck, tri-axle or twin axle, minibus, articulated or non articulated midibus or full size bus operated as long the bus being used fulfills the requirements of the passenger it serves both in terms of capacity and passenger needs.

Now as you appear to have insider knowledge so you may think otherwise but the consensus seems to be that single decker buses are struggling on certain routes but not others namely the 102 and certain departures on the 184 however the rest of the single decker routes don't appear to have issues.

I do agree that the streelites were a poor buy and appeared to lack a proper insight by the NTA. They are not disability friendly buses would be one of the main issues and the cab design and build quality appear off aswell.

I also think the NTA may have missed a trick not holding and doing a full cost benefit analysis of looking into buying 88 fully electric single decker buses which may suit their policy of alternatively fueled buses and copying TFLs approach.

dublinman1990

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hybrid is meant to be from mid to late this year onwards and full EV are on trial also.

Dublin Bus will have 3 hybrid demonstrators all branded in a specific Dublin Bus Hybrid livery this month & next.

They are all built from Wrights. They will be named as WH1, WH2 & WH3.

CramCycle

While I understand the buying of single decker buses, it really does scream Irish politics, not too different from the M50, build for what you have now, rather than what you want/expect in the future.

This is nothing to do with GAI or DB, this is a huge issue with NTA. If PT use ever improves in some of these routes, it will be shortlived if people are standing for most of their trip.

Just my opinion, but they should be putting a halt to single decker purchases from now on. On the same note,my opinion only rings true of they pull their finger out of there asses at government level in driving support and use of PT, rather than building extra lanes on motorways coming into Dublin.