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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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briany

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

I keep reading that Ireland and the EU are at fault for the potential of the troubles restarting in Northern Ireland.....

When will people realise that the potential problems facing Northern Ireland and Ireland are made and caused by London. It is not the EUs fault nor Irelands for that matter that TM supported by the wonderful DUP made a balls of the WA. She is the one who spoke to the EU without consulting her government before or during the process, she is the one who cannot bring her government together to get support and she is the one who is steering the UK and Northern Ireland out of the EU without an agreement. The UK know exactly what that means...they know right well that that means a hard border.

The main thing that the HoC cannot agree on is the backstop, so whether or not she had rigorously consulted parliament during the process, that would still have been the bugbear they arrived at.

blanch152

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

I keep reading that Ireland and the EU are at fault for the potential of the troubles restarting in Northern Ireland.....

When will people realise that the potential problems facing Northern Ireland and Ireland are made and caused by London. It is not the EUs fault nor Irelands for that matter that TM supported by the wonderful DUP made a balls of the WA. She is the one who spoke to the EU without consulting her government before or during the process, she is the one who cannot bring her government together to get support and she is the one who is steering the UK and Northern Ireland out of the EU without an agreement. The UK know exactly what that means...they know right well that that means a hard border.

If the troubles start again in Northern Ireland the fault will lie with those who start them and those who give them succour and suppport. The issue of Irish unification is not one worth committing criminal acts or violence over.

WomanSkirtFan8

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This from the headline article in today's Telegraph. An informative insight into the mindset of Brexiteers.

"Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union. For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside."

Lovely.

Delusional. Absolutely bloody delusional.

EdgeCase

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly. If it weren't for the fact that a disorderly Brexit would cost us many thousands of jobs, I'd happily let them crash out on the 29th. But then again I have some English friends so I wouldn't wish that on them.

It's not all of England nor all of English politics. It's at most a rump of half of if.

I've huge sympathy for those who know this is absolutely insane.

But unfortunately, unless they manage to stop the madness the country is being represented by the equivalent of Lord Melchet from Blackadder.

I think England (and possibly the Northern Ireland unionist community too) need to have a long, long hard think about what they're allowing to represent them.

Professor Moriarty

EdgeCase wrote: »

I don't know but I'm increasingly finding myself just saying please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The EU isn't perfect and I think pretty much everyone accepts that it's a work in progress but the kind do toxic vitriol that comes out of that aspect of the British political and media sphere is just not something that anyone can really respond to.

I mean you can't negotiate with someone who's negotiating position is basically that you need to destroy yourself and dissolve.

It's a shame we've got the whole mixup with the Northern Ireland border but I'm sure we'll figure it out some way, possibly after a change of government in the UK but honestly, nobody should be accepting that kind of rhetoric. It's worse that what you'd hear from Russia.

I always had a sense when living in the UK that there was bubbling hatred of the EU but I had no idea it would ever go this far.

You're not talking to logic when you talk to this. It's just raw naduonalism.

Exactly. If it weren't for the fact that a disorderly Brexit would cost us many thousands of jobs, I'd happily let them crash out on the 29th. But then again I have some English friends so I wouldn't wish that on them.

Frank Bullitt

eagle eye wrote: »

If troubles start up north they will cross the border.

This is scaremongering at best. And if this were to happen, fault falls firmly on the UK, not the EU.

Professor Moriarty

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It's the preparation of the faithful for the abandonment of this project.

Hasn't gone down well in the comments though

Wow, almost on thread 7. Has there ever been a saga this long here?

Yeah, the comments were very hostile. Love this one:

"You demanded cake...there was no cake. Now your plan is to sh*t in your pants and refuse to leave the room."

EdgeCase

The reality of it is that the structures of the EU were specifically designed to make conflicts like Northern Ireland be able to disappear by making the extremes of European nationalism fade into the background. Instead we are focused on pragmatic things and cooperation.

That's how places like Belgium have been calm and able to function - their borders don't matter. Even if Belgium were to split, practically within the EU it would make very little difference.

Northern Ireland (and the UK and the Republic of Ireland) benefited enormously from that system.

The UK is basically taking away a big part of NI's solution, which was the EU membership that made the border not matter, and then blaming the very solution it's ripping apart. It makes absolutely no sense and I don't think anyone, without going through a process of cognitive and logical contortions could possibly blame anyone other than the Brexiteers and the DUP for this.

The British Government has allowed itself to become wedded to the politics of Ian Paisley.

blanch152

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

In the event of a no-deal Brexit and a subsequent US/UK deal where the UK is the weak partner, we absolutely do need a border to prevent the import of low-standards US food products such as chlorinated chicken and other GMO meat. Our food industry would be decimated if we let that in.

You are right to point out the issues that arise from a border, but you are wrong to ignore the implications of not having a border.

Simple catchphrases like "Peace is Paramount" are about as sensible as "Brexit means Brexit".

MrMusician18

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This from the headline article in today's Telegraph. An informative insight into the mindset of Brexiteers.

"Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union. For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside."

Lovely.

It's the preparation of the faithful for the abandonment of this project.

Hasn't gone down well in the comments though

Wow, almost on thread 7. Has there ever been a saga this long here?

Irishmale0399

I keep reading that Ireland and the EU are at fault for the potential of the troubles restarting in Northern Ireland.....

When will people realise that the potential problems facing Northern Ireland and Ireland are made and caused by London. It is not the EUs fault nor Irelands for that matter that TM supported by the wonderful DUP made a balls of the WA. She is the one who spoke to the EU without consulting her government before or during the process, she is the one who cannot bring her government together to get support and she is the one who is steering the UK and Northern Ireland out of the EU without an agreement. The UK know exactly what that means...they know right well that that means a hard border.

EdgeCase

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This from the headline article in today's Telegraph. An informative insight into the mindset of Brexiteers.

"Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union. For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside."

Lovely.

I don't know but I'm increasingly finding myself just saying please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The EU isn't perfect and I think pretty much everyone accepts that it's a work in progress but the kind do toxic vitriol that comes out of that aspect of the British political and media sphere is just not something that anyone can really respond to.

I mean you can't negotiate with someone who's negotiating position is basically that you need to destroy yourself and dissolve.

It's a shame we've got the whole mixup with the Northern Ireland border but I'm sure we'll figure it out some way, possibly after a change of government in the UK but honestly, nobody should be accepting that kind of rhetoric. It's worse that what you'd hear from Russia.

I always had a sense when living in the UK that there was bubbling hatred of the EU but I had no idea it would ever go this far.

You're not talking to logic when you talk to this. It's just raw nationalism.

johnnyskeleton

VinLieger wrote: »

Because it sure reads that way or else your just a troll and im really not sure which it is anymore.

Mod note:

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VinLieger

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.

Except you don't because you keep trying to blame the EU for trying to protect us south of the border, that's their job to protect the ROI which is one of their members, its the UK governments job to protect the people north of the border and we can't do anything if they refuse to do that beyond all our best efforts

eagle eye wrote: »

The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.

Tearing up rules that protect our economy and food markets is literally the definition of not protecting us.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.

Jesus christ i dont know how many more times i can say this, the EU arent insisting on a border, the UK are going to be the ones who force them into it be leaving with no deal and opening their markets to unregulated goods.

eagle eye wrote: »

If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.

Yeah you really havent been paying attention at all, just because they leave it won;t stop westminster from blaming the EU for everything they can.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

What if it takes a few months or years of a hard border to achieve this?

As has been mentioned countless times the UK will need a trade deal with us, the first two items on the agenda if the go no deal will be the 39billion and the Irish border.

Leroy42

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

Hold on, so your theory is that the DUP will blame the UK if they put a border up and not the EU and the nationalists will blame the EU and not the UK if we put it up?

Maybe we can put one up using NI contractors and thus they can blame themselves!

Professor Moriarty

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

All they need do is listen to their business leaders and their civil servants.

eagle eye

VinLieger wrote:

Yes it is but have you been ignoring everything that has gone on? Because it sure reads that way or else your just a troll and im really not sure which it is anymore.

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

Professor Moriarty

This from the headline article in today's Telegraph. An informative insight into the mindset of Brexiteers.

"Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union. For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside."

Lovely.

An Ciarraioch

http://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1091366331251863552

Leroy42

eagle eye wrote: »

BSE? LMFAO, we have had free movement for over 20 years and that hasn't happened in a long, long time. Why would it suddenly start now?
Don't go making things up or can Ming up with ridiculous theories about how it 'might' happen.

YEah, because of standards.

This really isn't that difficult.

I get it, you are worried about peace and are willing to give up anything in order to secure it. Even it that means wrecking our own economy. And what effect do you think that would have?

VinLieger

eagle eye wrote: »

I do care. Peace is Paramount.

Yes it is but have you been ignoring everything that has gone on? Because it sure reads that way or else your just a troll and im really not sure which it is anymore.

Folkstonian

Donald Trump wrote: »

9 miles vs about 1000 miles in fairness.

Not saying I agree with them keeping it, but they would have a far stronger argument than the Brits would have.

The British argument for Gibraltar is enshrined in the Treaty of Utrecht I think?

So it’s only about as strong as the Dutch case for being independent of Spain, then!

It should also be kept in mind that Gibraltar, like the Falklands, have voted overwhelmingly in recent years in favour of remaining as British Overseas Territories.

It is careless of the EU - as an institution which prides itself on respecting democracy - to refer in a diplomatic cable to Gibraltar as a colony despite the democratically asserted desires of its citizens.

eagle eye

VinLieger wrote:

And that right there is why people call you a brexiteer because you do not care about the consequences of your choices simply that you get your own way and damn everyone else who stands between you and it.

I do care. Peace is Paramount.

VinLieger

eagle eye wrote: »

Option 2

And that right there is why people call you a brexiteer because you do not care about the consequences of your choices simply that you get your own way and damn everyone else who stands between you and it.

Option 2 is literally the stupidest most idiotic choice we could make, and I thank god we don't have ideologues like you in charge so wont be doing it

setanta1000

EdgeCase wrote: »

Single projects go horribly wrong in most countries from time to time. Take a look at say nuclear plants - often go multiple times over budget. Boston's Big Dig... There's an endless list in the UK.

The NCH project is an a absolute mess financially but it's hardly something to write off the whole country over.

It's the product of bad management and political footballery by multiple political parties and often well meaning vested interests who kept moving the damn site, it's not just the current government.

It's a risk of big, politically driven one off projects.

Agreed - if anyone wants to see a good example of how spectacular public projects can go spectacularly wrong just look up Berlin's Brandenburg Airport. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/berlin-new-airport-delayed-again/

First Up

eagle eye wrote:

If troubles start up north they will cross the border.

The EU agreed terms with the UK that removed the need for a border. The UK parliament has refused to ratify them.

We are of course concerned about the consequences but we don't control the UK parliament.

eagle eye

VinLieger wrote:

Which of those do you prefer? because they are the only two options.

Option 2

eagle eye

Leroy42 wrote:

So in other words simply do nothing. And when the first case of BSE arises and wipes out the Beef sector? Or substandard products come into Ireland via NI and the EU are forced to check shipments from Ireland to EU, what then?
Its not really a solution is it?

BSE? LMFAO, we have had free movement for over 20 years and that hasn't happened in a long, long time. Why would it suddenly start now?
Don't go making things up or can Ming up with ridiculous theories about how it 'might' happen.

VinLieger

eagle eye wrote: »

Peace is much more important.

The EU have a responsibility to us. That responsibility includes making sure our lives are not in danger over a border.

Its not a choice between peace and following trade rules.

There are two options if a No Deal happens and the UK decide to sign all kinds of awful trade deals whit whoever they want and stop following EU rules and regulations on their imported and exported goods.

Option one is we put up a border to protect our economy and the EU's from products that do not fall in line with EU regulations, not doing so would severely hurt our economy as we would be flooded with cheap products and below regulation food produce that would be full of god knows what kind of chemicals leading to potential health issues and they also would be cheaper than our own produce putting our farmers and other food suppliers out of business.

Option two is we don't put up a border up which would be against the EU's wishes and they then are likely to implement a border between us and the rest of europe effectively cutting us off into an unofficial Irexit and severely hurting our economy.

Which of those do you prefer? because they are the only two options.

I get where your coming from Peace is important but its is FAR more complex than you understand or are trying to make out. Also remember peace is an option available to everyone up north even in the case of a hard border. They aren't being forced into picking up guns and planting bombs that is a choice they will make and you blaming Ireland or the EU for their decisions is pretty disgusting terrorist apologist sh1te.

Donald Trump

briany wrote: »

The British are never going to give up Gibraltar without a proper fight. Not only is its culture British and not only do its residents vote overwhelmingly in favour of staying with the UK, but it is of strategic importance that is far too high for anything less than war to make it change hands, so Spain using simple emotional arguments is never really going to wash. The so-called 'joint sovereignty' option would be as good as it ever good with mere talking, but even that's been swept off the table for now.

It's all another part of what makes the cliff edge an imposing sight. If the UK were ever to seek to rejoin the EU, Gibraltar would immediately become a massive issue, with Spain looking for all kinds of concessions in order to ratify the UK's re-accession. It's just one of the crows that the UK would have to eat.

It would be interesting to see how the residents felt post Brexit if their daily routines were being disrupted. Even if UK citizens have freedom of movement after Brexit, it does not place any obligation for an EU country to allow UK citizens to choose the point at which they cross into it.