Brexit Discussion Thread VI

El Weirdo wrote:

You make it sound like we haven't had any input into how the EU are approaching the issue.

It appears that way to me anyways.

ambro25

Hurrache wrote: »

Re Gibraltar, they're very very angry at the moment because it was called a colony in that EU document.

That 'colony' footnote is a seed for eventual consumption at the UN. The Spaniards are playing a very long game here, and this is just another opportunistic move within it: it's the aggregation of those discrete moves that matters, when eventually they should reach a critical, diplomatic mass.

eagle eye wrote: »

We all know that a border will bring back the troubles. We are responsible if we put conditions in place which will start the troubles again.

We did put conditions in place to stop them, including deleting out previous territorial claim to part of the Island. It seems many people do not give this the seriousness that it deserves. As a country, we opted to reject that claim on the basis of securing lasting peace. Look at how the DUP are claiming that any movement away from the UK is a disaster, yet we moved on years ago.

The UK have now decided, based on nothing more than some glib headlines and an apparent longing for the old empire days, to put that peace at risk but changing fundamentally the relationship between the UK and Ireland via the EU.

By having both countries aligned to a third party, neither side felt they were capitulating. All that is being removed, meaning one way or another someone is going to feel that they have lost out due to Brexit.

But you are right that we should, and I believe are, doing everything we can to avoid a return to violence.

What is your proposal to square the circle that the UK have, after two years failed to come up with?

Leroy42 wrote:

What is your proposal to square the circle that the UK have, after two years failed to come up with?

I say we don't put anybody on a border. If the UK wants to stop people at the border then let them.
If that happens then they, the political leaders, will be the target of the ire of nationalists. I'd be happy with that, it might bring them back to the table a lot quicker.

First Up

eagle eye wrote:

The EU have a responsibility to us. That responsibility includes making sure our lives are not in danger over a border.

Don't you think the UK has the greater responsibility, seeing as all of this is its doing?

If peace is more important, and if a border is putting lives in danger, then ratification of the WA that keeps the UK in the Customs Union is the simple solution.

Berating the EU or the Irish government for the possible consequences in the UK of the UK's own actions is absurd.

10000maniacs

eagle eye wrote: »

We all know that a border will bring back the troubles. We are responsible if we put conditions in place which will start the troubles again.
.

What exactly are Varadkar's options?
1: Agree to remove the backstop, create a permanent for all time hard border and wait for the UK to come up with facilitative arrangements and technological unicorns.
2: Don't agree to the removal of the backstop, let the UK drive off the cliff and we have a hard border.

Option 2 sounds the best to me in terms of peace and stability, as the UK are most likely going to trawl through the wreckage at the bottom of the cliff and try to stick it back together. Meanwhile the backstop is still there to be used in future negotiations.

First Up wrote:

Berating the EU or the Irish government for the possible consequences in the UK of the UK's own actions is absurd.

If troubles start up north they will cross the border.

eagle eye wrote: »

I say we don't put anybody on a border. If the UK wants to stop people at the border then let them.
If that happens then they, the political leaders, will be the target of the ire of nationalists. I'd be happy with that, it might bring them back to the table a lot quicker.

So in other words simply do nothing. And when the first case of BSE arises and wipes out the Beef sector? Or substandard products come into Ireland via NI and the EU are forced to check shipments from Ireland to EU, what then?

Its not really a solution is it?

Donald Trump

briany wrote: »

The British are never going to give up Gibraltar without a proper fight. Not only is its culture British and not only do its residents vote overwhelmingly in favour of staying with the UK, but it is of strategic importance that is far too high for anything less than war to make it change hands, so Spain using simple emotional arguments is never really going to wash. The so-called 'joint sovereignty' option would be as good as it ever good with mere talking, but even that's been swept off the table for now.

It's all another part of what makes the cliff edge an imposing sight. If the UK were ever to seek to rejoin the EU, Gibraltar would immediately become a massive issue, with Spain looking for all kinds of concessions in order to ratify the UK's re-accession. It's just one of the crows that the UK would have to eat.

It would be interesting to see how the residents felt post Brexit if their daily routines were being disrupted. Even if UK citizens have freedom of movement after Brexit, it does not place any obligation for an EU country to allow UK citizens to choose the point at which they cross into it.

eagle eye wrote: »

Peace is much more important.

The EU have a responsibility to us. That responsibility includes making sure our lives are not in danger over a border.

Its not a choice between peace and following trade rules.

There are two options if a No Deal happens and the UK decide to sign all kinds of awful trade deals whit whoever they want and stop following EU rules and regulations on their imported and exported goods.

Option one is we put up a border to protect our economy and the EU's from products that do not fall in line with EU regulations, not doing so would severely hurt our economy as we would be flooded with cheap products and below regulation food produce that would be full of god knows what kind of chemicals leading to potential health issues and they also would be cheaper than our own produce putting our farmers and other food suppliers out of business.

Option two is we don't put up a border up which would be against the EU's wishes and they then are likely to implement a border between us and the rest of europe effectively cutting us off into an unofficial Irexit and severely hurting our economy.

Which of those do you prefer? because they are the only two options.

I get where your coming from Peace is important but its is FAR more complex than you understand or are trying to make out. Also remember peace is an option available to everyone up north even in the case of a hard border. They aren't being forced into picking up guns and planting bombs that is a choice they will make and you blaming Ireland or the EU for their decisions is pretty disgusting terrorist apologist sh1te.

Leroy42 wrote:

So in other words simply do nothing. And when the first case of BSE arises and wipes out the Beef sector? Or substandard products come into Ireland via NI and the EU are forced to check shipments from Ireland to EU, what then?
Its not really a solution is it?

BSE? LMFAO, we have had free movement for over 20 years and that hasn't happened in a long, long time. Why would it suddenly start now?
Don't go making things up or can Ming up with ridiculous theories about how it 'might' happen.

VinLieger wrote:

Which of those do you prefer? because they are the only two options.

Option 2

First Up

eagle eye wrote:

If troubles start up north they will cross the border.

The EU agreed terms with the UK that removed the need for a border. The UK parliament has refused to ratify them.

We are of course concerned about the consequences but we don't control the UK parliament.

setanta1000

EdgeCase wrote: »

Single projects go horribly wrong in most countries from time to time. Take a look at say nuclear plants - often go multiple times over budget. Boston's Big Dig... There's an endless list in the UK.

The NCH project is an a absolute mess financially but it's hardly something to write off the whole country over.

It's the product of bad management and political footballery by multiple political parties and often well meaning vested interests who kept moving the damn site, it's not just the current government.

It's a risk of big, politically driven one off projects.

Agreed - if anyone wants to see a good example of how spectacular public projects can go spectacularly wrong just look up Berlin's Brandenburg Airport. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/berlin-new-airport-delayed-again/

eagle eye wrote: »

Option 2

And that right there is why people call you a brexiteer because you do not care about the consequences of your choices simply that you get your own way and damn everyone else who stands between you and it.

Option 2 is literally the stupidest most idiotic choice we could make, and I thank god we don't have ideologues like you in charge so wont be doing it

VinLieger wrote:

And that right there is why people call you a brexiteer because you do not care about the consequences of your choices simply that you get your own way and damn everyone else who stands between you and it.

I do care. Peace is Paramount.

Folkstonian

Donald Trump wrote: »

9 miles vs about 1000 miles in fairness.

Not saying I agree with them keeping it, but they would have a far stronger argument than the Brits would have.

The British argument for Gibraltar is enshrined in the Treaty of Utrecht I think?

So it’s only about as strong as the Dutch case for being independent of Spain, then!

It should also be kept in mind that Gibraltar, like the Falklands, have voted overwhelmingly in recent years in favour of remaining as British Overseas Territories.

It is careless of the EU - as an institution which prides itself on respecting democracy - to refer in a diplomatic cable to Gibraltar as a colony despite the democratically asserted desires of its citizens.

eagle eye wrote: »

I do care. Peace is Paramount.

Yes it is but have you been ignoring everything that has gone on? Because it sure reads that way or else your just a troll and im really not sure which it is anymore.

http://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1091366331251863552

eagle eye wrote: »

BSE? LMFAO, we have had free movement for over 20 years and that hasn't happened in a long, long time. Why would it suddenly start now?
Don't go making things up or can Ming up with ridiculous theories about how it 'might' happen.

YEah, because of standards.

This really isn't that difficult.

I get it, you are worried about peace and are willing to give up anything in order to secure it. Even it that means wrecking our own economy. And what effect do you think that would have?

An Ciarraioch

Professor Moriarty

This from the headline article in today's Telegraph. An informative insight into the mindset of Brexiteers.

"Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union. For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside."

Lovely.

VinLieger wrote:

Yes it is but have you been ignoring everything that has gone on? Because it sure reads that way or else your just a troll and im really not sure which it is anymore.

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

Professor Moriarty

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

All they need do is listen to their business leaders and their civil servants.

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm neither. You can see that I don't have much time for the UK if you've read my posts.
It's just that I realise there are two sides to this.
The EU is our side and they have a responsibility to us. They may have rules but they need to change the rules to protect the 5 million residents of the Republic of Ireland.
I don't want a border. If the UK are insisting on one then let them man this border. The EU should not set up a border because that is going to start the troubles again and it will spill over into this country.
If the UK insist on a border then that is their business but I think in that instance that the troubles will be focused on the politicians in London rather than on the EU and us in the Republic.
I'm sure if there are a few scares for politicians in London that we'll have a backstop in place very quickly.

Hold on, so your theory is that the DUP will blame the UK if they put a border up and not the EU and the nationalists will blame the EU and not the UK if we put it up?

Maybe we can put one up using NI contractors and thus they can blame themselves!