downcow wrote: » This is why I am asking the question on here. But it is interesting that none of the well informed posters have answered my simple question. Instead people are going off on rants at me.
downcow wrote: » Try me. Please keep it really simple for this thick northerner. Simple bullet points would be best and no big words. Really interesting- more rants at me but no answer yet to this question that you all know the answer to. Who will be first to educate me?
Folkstonian wrote: » One could also argue that Scotland entered a union with England of its own accord, which has been overwhelmingly successful. One could also argue that Scotland played an incredibly influential role in the expansion and maintenance of empire. Further, one could argue that the heyday of empire was not the 1700s, but the decades between the world wars when it was at its largest territorially and economically. One can argue all these things if they study history and don’t fabricate a counternarrative. I’m becoming sick of this whole process. Sick of the EU pretending it has offered Britain a fair deal at any stage. You can’t put three lumps of **** in front of someone and condemn them for not choosing any of them. EEA - garbage, absolutely no say over the rules Britain would have to adhere to. Back down and remain - garbage, really scares me because it will cause so many people to disengage from politics for many, many years. I don’t foresee violence, just people justifiably asking what the point of participation in democracy is. Sick of the EU acting like it has to shoulder literally none of the responsibility for the vote to leave. May’s deal - garbage. basically letting Europe annex part of the UK. Obviously, obviously, this was going to cause loads of sodding grief. What a horrible time to live in. I feel so sorry for people on an individual level who are affected by this maelstrom of distrust and antsgonism. It was one of the key reasons why I was a remainer initially. But now, I have just had enough with it all. I don’t want anyone here to think I have any bad feeling towards Ireland or it’s people. I love this place and have had such a blast living and working here. I don’t excuse or try to justify the idiocy and ineptitude of May and her negotiating team. But my god, the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt have shown themselves up to be insufferable twats. Europe can see fit to compromise when they want to. Look at the Swiss deal, look at Norway. Huge compromises. For Britain, because they have got the arse at the shock decision to leave, it’s just the take it or leave it off the shelf aforementioned lumps of ****. I really understand this will go down like a lead balloon here, but it’s not a post like many other ‘leavers’ (I guess that’s what I am now) intended to take the conversation down into the gutter.
Hurrache wrote: » So simple you had to ask. You were answered a few times, one even had a great big diagram. All it does is highlight you're wasting our time as it shows that everything you post is based on personal assumptions and little fact.
Folkstonian wrote: » I’m becoming sick of this whole process. Sick of the EU pretending it has offered Britain a fair deal at any stage. You can’t put three lumps of **** in front of someone and condemn them for not choosing any of them. .
Professor Moriarty wrote: » What exactly would you like the EU to offer Britain today?
downcow wrote: » you say I’ve been answered several times. Just highlight a couple of them for me because I can’t find any of them. Yes an image has been posted but I genuinely don’t understand the logic of it and it is including stuff like ‘UK unwilling to make financial contribution’ which is clearly not true. So the challenge is still out there. A few simple bullet points telling me what Mays red lines are?
Folkstonian wrote: » I don’t think that is quite right. Raab quit as Brexit sec because he felt he was being sidelined by Theresa May and Olly Robbins And was completely unhappy with the withdrawal agreement, no?
Folkstonian wrote: » May’s deal - garbage. basically letting Europe annex part of the UK.
Folkstonian wrote: » Sick of the EU acting like it has to shoulder literally none of the responsibility for the vote to leave.
Nody wrote: 1) 30th March UK crashes out 2) 1st April Ireland implements mobile controls on the major roads checking commercial vehicles causing a disruption to trade. 3) UK main ports get truck queues backed all the way to London with in a week as most of UK grinds to an halt for various reasons 4) UK runs back to EU to sign the WA agreement removing the need for the controls as NI remains in the CU until a suitable solution is found (along with rest of UK for an unspecified period which may be shorter than NI) removing the mobile checks
Nody wrote: Now will the troubles return for that time duration? No; simply because it will not last long enough to build up the aggravation over it. However as this is speculation of the future it's not guaranteed to happen as planned or expected. Hence if you want a 100% iron clad guarantee of no troubles then the answer is no, there is none short of all of Ireland becoming a vassal of UK because even leaving the EU would not be enough. Do you think that's an acceptable solution to avoid the troubles? Disband the Irish state etc. and become an province of the UK state?
eagle eye wrote: » The Republicans will start as soon as there is a border. The DUP will be delighted with the border so you won't find Unionist paramilitaries doing anything until some important Unionist is gunned down, the it'll be on and there'll be no stopping it. It's a frightening thought and I think it'll quickly lead to an Irexit vote.
FrancieBrady wrote: » A long rant blaming everyone but the UK themselves? Dear me. May and her team negotiated that deal, got compromises and agreed it, then she welched on it last night...yet the EU is causing distrust and a disconnect with politics? There is no saving some.
An Ciarraioch wrote: » As other mentioned, you already were given a picture of the Barnier Slide: Norway = Single Market, no Customs Union Turkey = Customs Union, no Single Market Switzerland = Bespoke bilateral midway between the above Canada = Basic FTA.
Hurrache wrote: » Your rant is totally misjudged and misdirected. You've fallen into the trap of showing you don't understand how the EU works and negotiates with your blame of two specific individuals, and fail spectacularly to understand that it's all the UKs doing, there is no obligation to offer them any sort of good deal. You then mention two other deals with non EU countries as an example that the EU can negotiate when it wants to, but guess who ruled out getting similar deals to those? Yip, the UK and their red lines again. There was even a handy chart a few posts back graphically illustrating this.
eagle eye wrote: » If we are threatening to leave then others will look at that and you'll have more countries wanting out. The whole thing could break up or it might mean that everybody comes to their senses and we get a deal that works for everybody.
Charles Babbage wrote: No, it won't. It will lead to NI leaving the UK. In fact, likely there won't be a UK.
downcow wrote: » Everyone told UK voters before the referendum that the would not be in the CU or SM. so why should people be calling these red lines. This is what was voted for. How could she even contemplate compromising on these.
eagle eye wrote: » The UK are not going to run back to Europe quickly. They will look at making deals outside if the EU. They'll offer deals to other countries to try and place themselves in a more powerful position fir renegotiation. There is a trade war coming if there is a hard Brexit and you'll be foolish to underestimate the UK. All this is based on the UK running cap in hand back to the EU. That's not going to happen imo. Just look at all the idiots over there in power or opposition. Also while Twitter and Facebook will make you believe that the British people want back into Europe it's very different on the ground over there. I recently spent a couple of days in London and Birmingham. I spoke to close to 200 people about Brexit. I spoke to somewhere in the region of about 80 people about it in London and it was only about 60/40 in favour of another referendum. In Birmingham I was quite shocked when it became clear that something like 70% were in favour of Brexit. This was last week. The Republicans will start as soon as there is a border. The DUP will be delighted with the border so you won't find Unionist paramilitaries doing anything until some important Unionist is gunned down, the it'll be on and there'll be no stopping it. It's a frightening thought and I think it'll quickly lead to an Irexit vote. If we are threatening to leave then others will look at that and you'll have more countries wanting out. The whole thing could break up or it might mean that everybody comes to their senses and we get a deal that works for everybody.
Midlife wrote: » 1) Deliver a clear, smooth and orderly Brexit 2) Protecting the union between the United Kingdom's four parts: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland 3) Giving Britain control of its borders, laws, and money 4) Allowing Britain to have an independent trade policy The first is a joke at this stage. So they want to preserve the UK, control the borders and don't want to be in the common european market. What is the actual solution?
Folkstonian wrote: » Sorry, you misunderstand. I don’t blame those two characters for the negotiations. I think they are awful and unbearable and are one of many reasons as to why leave won the referendum.
eagle eye wrote: » The UK are not going to run back to Europe quickly. They will look at making deals outside if the EU. They'll offer deals to other countries to try and place themselves in a more powerful position fir renegotiation. There is a trade war coming if there is a hard Brexit and you'll be foolish to underestimate the UK.
fly_agaric wrote: No...the other countries would shake their heads in disbelief at the madness and get on with it. IMO we would be (in their eyes) the UK's little nodding dog full of post colonial angst trotting after them them out of EU the same way we trotted in with them to join!
Folkstonian wrote: » I literally called May an inept negotiator. In what world is that not blaming the UK side?
eagle eye wrote: » That is basically what we have been for years,why change now if it's going to cost the lives of innocent people?
downcow wrote: » Thanks that’s really helpful. All sound very reasonable to me. Certainly a lot more reasonable than a backstop
