Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not fact though, as we have documented evidence of his dealings with radical trans activists on social media.

So tell me, when a member of your family is facing a challenging physical or mental health problem, will you bring them to a doctor, or to someone who has dealt with activists on social media?

Honestly, if you can't see the difference between a parent living with this issue for years and Linehan having some rows on social media, I feel quite sorry for you.

Slutmonkey57b

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've never heard of Aimee Challenor, so I'm not really the right person to comment on her qualifications. If she has experience or expertise in transgender, she could be a good candidate for Prime Time. If, like Linehan, she has no experience in this issue, she wouldn't make a good candidate for Prime Time.

Amazing. You actually expect anyone to believe you know all about why Linehan is an "unqualified inexpertise bigot" AND that people are trying to "drag over controversies from the UK"

BUT

You've never heard of Challenor?

Never?

Unbelievable levels of bull**** on display there. But then, I suppose that's necessary to pretend that there aren't any issues with self id, or that "children's rights" to have surgery or take hormone blockers are being impinged.

(Children don't have those "rights" now and that's the next Nirvana on the list I suppose? "Yeah children of 4 years old can't get a tattoo or vote, and by definition they're malleable and easily manipulated, but we should definitely force these damaging stereotypes on them, tell them they're required to "fit in" to a box we've defined and then tell them they've the "right" to medical intervention to get into the outdated, nonsensical, imaginary box we want their behaviour to be classified into")

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Amazing. You actually expect anyone to believe you know all about why Linehan is an "unqualified inexpertise bigot" AND that people are trying to "drag over controversies from the UK"

BUT

You've never heard of Challenor?

Never?

Unbelievable levels of bull**** on display there. But then, I suppose that's necessary to pretend that there aren't any issues with self id, or that "children's rights" to have surgery or take hormone blockers are be impinged.

I don't think I used the word 'bigot' so I'm not sure who you're quoting there. But I am amazed at the obsession some people have with how this issue has been addressed in the UK and elsewhere. Maybe you'd be better off studying how things have gone here, with three years of self-identification and no issues arising?

Slutmonkey57b

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think I used the word 'bigot' so I'm not sure who you're quoting there. But I am amazed at the obsession some people have with how this issue has been addressed in the UK and elsewhere. Maybe you'd be better off studying how things have gone here, with three years of self-identification and no issues arising?

Hmmm.

Should I take the word of someone who "hasn't heard of Aimee Challenor" that there *haven't* been any issues?

Because clearly, you've kept your ear to the ground, haven't you? Nothing gets past you! Totally on the ball about this whole thing!

Or is it that you're hoping that nobody will look for anything? Because that's the only way they're not going to find anything.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So tell me, when a member of your family is facing a challenging physical or mental health problem, will you bring them to a doctor, or to someone who has dealt with activists on social media?

Honestly, if you can't see the difference between a parent living with this issue for years and Linehan having some rows on social media, I feel quite sorry for you.

Andrew the last thing anyone needs is your pity.

When someone in my family is faced with mental health issues, the options you present aren’t my only two options, but to ground your hypothetical scenario in some sort of reality - I have a 14 year old son. If he came to me one day and told me he was struggling with his identity and had read on social media that the only way to allieviate his distress was to transition to his preferred gender, I’d plug out his laptop and tell him get on with his homework.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Hmmm.

Should I take the word of someone who "hasn't heard of Aimee Challenor" that there *haven't* been any issues?

Because clearly, you've kept your ear to the ground, haven't you? Nothing gets past you! Totally on the ball about this whole thing!

Or is it that you're hoping that nobody will look for anything? Because that's the only way they're not going to find anything.

So what issues have arisen in Ireland?

Just over 900,000 pupils who are probably aged 18 and under in Irish schools in 2017. (https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/key-statistics-2017-2018.pdf)
From Primetime (https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0123/1024917-transgender/ ) , about 35 of them were referred to the Tavistock gender clinic in 2017. Overall in the entire pupil population of that 900,000, 12 have obtained gender recognition certs, 10 of these were girls who now identify as boys as Primetime described it.

Hardly an explosion? It's not even hundreds or thousands, it looks very suspicious that there is sensationalism involved here.

Ireland’s trans children: ‘I didn’t know what ‘trans’ meant. I just felt that I was a woman’

klaaaz wrote: »

Hardly an explosion? It's not even hundreds or thousands, it looks very suspicious that there is sensationalism involved here.

There’s sensationalism involved alright, and plenty of it is coming from the chair of the review group of the Gender Recognition Act who is also the executive director of an organisation which made the proposals for the bill in the first place -

“We’re seeing a huge increase in the numbers of people coming out as transgender since the marriage equality referendum and the Gender Recognition Act, and that’s a really positive outcome. There’s been a 100 per cent increase in people accessing our youth groups and support services. We work with hundreds of trans people and we see that with the right support, they go on to live wonderfully fulfilled, happy and amazing lives.”

LLMMLL

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not manipulating what you said, that’s a pretty shìtty accusation when I went to the effort of citing you directly so you couldn’t accuse me of misrepresenting your opinion or anything else, and yet you still do. She is being treated equally to other women, but how she is treated is not the point. The salient point is that her victim was misled as to the nature of the act and the identity of the person who sexually assaulted or raped them. Your claim was that a person is not the victim of sexual assault or rape unless their assailant is convicted is nonsense.

You want different standards to apply to people who other people do not recognise as their preferred gender, which would enable them to commit rape and sexual assault with impunity.

You are posting what I'm saying but your assessment of what I am saying is completely false, so the fact that you quote my posts isn't actually helpful.

The complainant (not victim) was not misled as to the nature of the act or identity of the person, and they were not raped or sexually assaulted.

There is little or no case law and thankfully Jack, you dont get to decide the interpretation of an untested law.

For instance, I don't get to decide that a woman who sleeps with a man she thinks is Scottish has been raped when she discovers he is actually Irish just because I believe it falls under the interpretation of misleading identity. And someone telling me they don't believe the woman was raped in that case is not denying that a woman who is forcefully raped is a victim. They would simply be saying they dont agree with my interpretation of an untested law.

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea that the feelings of a person who has been raped or sexually assaulted would be legally irrelevant when we’re aware of things like the victim impact statement in sentencing, and during a trial of course the victims feelings are taken into account, and every effort is made by the Courts to make them feel as comfortable as possible in giving testimony against the accused.

They are irrelevant to whether a case is taken, and whether it is succesful. That is all I'm considering. And its not the feelings of a person who has been sexually assaulted. Its the feelings of a person who feels they have been sexually assaulted.

LLMMLL wrote: »

You are posting what I'm saying but your assessment of what I am saying is completely false, so the fact that you quote my posts isn't actually helpful.

The complainant (not victim) was not misled as to the nature of the act or identity of the person, and they were not raped or sexually assaulted.

There is little or no case law and thankfully Jack, you dont get to decide the interpretation of an untested law.

For instance, I don't get to decide that a woman who sleeps with a man she thinks is Scottish has been raped when she discovers he is actually Irish just because I believe it falls under the interpretation of misleading identity. And someone telling me they don't believe the woman was raped in that case is not denying that a woman who is forcefully raped is a victim. They would simply be saying they dont agree with my interpretation of an untested law.

The law is not untested? It applies to everyone equally, regardless of their gender. The victim was clearly misled as to the nature of the act if the person they assumed was a woman, turns out that the person does not agree that they are a woman. The Gender Recognition Act doesn’t apply here as it only applies in how a person is recognised in law. Even if they were legally a woman, it wouldn’t matter to a person who does not consider them to be a woman, and considers that they were misled by the nature of the act, thereby vitiating consent.

Your red herrings about national identity aren’t relevant to what we’re discussing here which is gender identity, but you feel free to argue that in front of a jury too. I’ve heard worse arguments.

They are irrelevant to whether a case is taken, and whether it is succesful. That is all I'm considering. And its not the feelings of a person who has been sexually assaulted. Its the feelings of a person who feels they have been sexually assaulted.

They’re irrelevant to you perhaps, but they aren’t irrelevant to me, and they aren’t irrelevant to anyone I’ve ever met who works in the legal profession. The feelings of the victim aren’t irrelevant to a jury either, and can often sway a case one way or the other. And it is the feelings of a person who has been sexually assaulted or raped, and your attempts to downplay the severity of the impact that being sexually assaulted or raped can have on a person are noted.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Andrew the last thing anyone needs is your pity.

When someone in my family is faced with mental health issues, the options you present aren’t my only two options, but to ground your hypothetical scenario in some sort of reality - I have a 14 year old son. If he came to me one day and told me he was struggling with his identity and had read on social media that the only way to allieviate his distress was to transition to his preferred gender, I’d plug out his laptop and tell him get on with his homework.

Is it any wonder that trans people have such poor mental health issues and high suicide rates?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is it any wonder that trans people have such poor mental health issues and high suicide rates?

I can’t see the gif you’ve posted (doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist though, amirite? :pac:), but no Andrew, my actions in that hypothetical situation do not explain why trans people have such poor mental health issues and high suicide rates. There are an infinite number of reasons why anyone would have poor mental health issues and high suicide rates among whatever particular demographic you choose in support of your argument. I could point out to you that the highest suicide rates recorded are consistently among middle aged males, but the recent trend among young girls and women of suicide has caused a lot of concern for people. In previous years young girls and women had higher rates of self-harm than males, and now they are increasingly likely to take their own lives. There have been a number of reasons put forward as to why this trend is happening, particularly from various lobby groups with a vested interest in funding, but nobody appears to be able to offer a sufficient explanation.

So no Andrew, I don’t wonder why it’s just trans people have such poor mental health issues and high suicide rates, and your attempt to credit me with responsibility for the phenomenon is at best misguided, and at worst downright sinister. I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt though that your intentions weren’t downright sinister and were instead simply misguided.

rgodard80a

LLMMLL wrote: »

There is little or no case law and thankfully Jack, you dont get to decide the interpretation of an untested law.

Maybe not in Ireland.... but in the UK a woman was jailed for pretending to be a man to have sex with another woman.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/woman-pretended-man-two-years-trick-female-friend-sex-found/

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There’s sensationalism involved alright, and plenty of it is coming from the chair of the review group of the Gender Recognition Act who is also the executive director of an organisation which made the proposals for the bill in the first place -

Ireland’s trans children: ‘I didn’t know what ‘trans’ meant. I just felt that I was a woman’

That's from their perspective dealing with percent increases rather than actual numbers. We knew already that there was a few hundred adults switching genders(the GRC), nothing new there. And they deserve their rights.

It's sensationalism on part of Prime Time and some posters here when only 12 children have legally changed gender, that's 12 out of 900,000 plus. Hardly an explosion!

The Bishop Basher

rgodard80a wrote: »

Maybe not in Ireland.... but in the UK a woman was jailed for pretending to be a man to have sex with another woman.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/woman-pretended-man-two-years-trick-female-friend-sex-found/

I linked to this before, it was dismissed because the rapist wasn’t a transsexual.

But there are huge parallels that can’t be ignored in the context of this discussion.

She was found guilty twice by 2 different jury’s so it’s cut and dried.

“The jury was told the “real issue” of the case boiled down to consent: did the complainant really know she was having sex with her friend, or did she honestly think her sexual partner was a man she had met on the internet?

In the end the jury decided the complainant had no idea that her lover was Gayle Newland and so could not have consented.”

Hector Savage

What I don't get is why they are so so sensitive ? - any sort of critisism or doubt is just met with shutting down,
de-platforming etc...
And I'm not talking about abuse here, take for example a documentary on biology by that "Science Guy" Bill Nye, it's from 1990s
and the segment that talks about XX XY chromosones to determine gender - is just cut.
Why do they need to cut it ?
Even if the Science is dated , the doc is 20 years old - leave it in.
Plenty of dinosaur docs from years back that view them as great big dumb scaly skinned lizards, most recent discoveries
indicate they actually were feathered and were more like giant birds (birds are modern day dinosaurs)
Would these be just cut tho ?
Don't think so, people would still merit them even if the science is dated and has since been proved wrong - It's secure enough
to trust the new data rather then just remove old data like some George Orwell novel.
Same with Pluto (now I am aware this is a classification issue) don't think they will be deleting docs that
have it as a planet.

It's almost as if they know it's an absolute crock of sh*t and they know it needs protecting in order to survive.

There is no point in arguing with trans allies as to whether or not sex with a transwoman when the partner does not know they are biologically male is rape because amongst themselves trans allies cannot figure this out as, on this issue like so many others, the ideological incoherence threatens to consume itself.

Is it ''rude'' not to tell your gender history, I have seen some trans activists wonder.
Some say, of course you should tell, otherwise it is stealth sex, sex where one partner is under very fundamental misapprehensions as to the reality of the event.
Some say, why should one tell because a transwoman is REALLY a woman, so therefore there is no subterfuge.

That's the split.

Perhaps it boils down to this - is a transwoman a woman?

The ideology is pushing for there to be zero distinction between biological women and trans women. Zero. They are to be accepted as one and the same thing, and therefore there could be no subterfuge in the case of sex .

I believe that a woman is an adult human female, and that a transwoman is a transwoman. For that I am considered to be a transphobe, but am willing to accept the existence of that slur as being a consequence of my publicly wishing to uphold empirical biological reality against false ideology.

It is up to the courts and wider society to decide as time goes on what they think is the truth. It is difficult at the moment due to the censorship of academic research and open debate. Time will tell.

rgodard80a

Zorya wrote: »

I believe that a woman is an adult human female, and that a transwoman is a transwoman.

+1
It's nearly akin to religion.

The law allows for religious equality, but that doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to other religious interpretations.

The best the trans community can hope for is that legally they are treated equally as women, but that's nowhere near the same as all of society believing they are women.

rgodard80a wrote: »

+1
It's nearly akin to religion.

The law allows for religious equality, but that doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to other religious interpretations.

The best the trans community can hope for is that legally they are treated equally as women, but that's nowhere near the same as all of society believing they are women.

I agree on the cultic quality of ideological adherence.

The legal system should treat trans people equally as humans. If trans women are to be legally treated equally as women then they will have free reign as self ID MfF persons within all female spaces. Though the defenders on here are saying show me the problems in Ireland, this invasion of female only spaces by trans identifying males has caused serious problems in other jurisdictions, eg rape in shelters and prisons, law suits, assaults.

Zorya wrote: »

Some say, why should one tell because a transwoman is REALLY a woman, so therefore there is no subterfuge.

That's the split.

Perhaps it boils down to this - is a transwoman a woman?

The ideology is pushing for there to be zero distinction between biological women and trans women. Zero. They are to be accepted as one and the same thing, and therefore there could be no subterfuge in the case of sex .

I believe that a woman is an adult human female, and that a transwoman is a transwoman. For that I am considered to be a transphobe, but am willing to accept the existence of that slur as being a consequence of my publicly wishing to uphold empirical biological reality against false ideology.

It is up to the courts and wider society to decide as time goes on what they think is the truth. It is difficult at the moment due to the censorship of academic research and open debate. Time will tell.

Over a thousand Irish feminist activists reject your radical view, as well as the legal, medical community and children's rights organisations. The only ones who agree with you are the misogynistic males and the religious extremists.
https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

over a thousand Irish feminists wrote:

However, their motives remain clear to us, and we write this letter to show that their exclusionary, discriminatory attitudes to trans people – in particular trans women – are not welcome here in Ireland. We will not sit in silence while the organisers of this meeting peddle ideas and opinions that are actively harmful to the well-being and safety of our comrades.

Trans women and men in Ireland have the legal right to self-declare their gender. Trans people and particularly trans women are an inextricable part of our feminist community. The needs of trans people are part of our campaigns. There is no difference between ‘feminists’ spreading transphobic and transmisogynist ideas or spreading racism or homophobia.

We can see from your social media posts about your tour and its contents, that your opposition to the GRA is based on the idea that feminist organising and women’s rights will somehow be harmed through trans inclusivity and organising with our trans sisters. We know this is not true. We, the signatories of this letter, organise hand in hand with our trans sisters. Together, cis and trans, we are Irish feminism. Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles theirs. They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says, either now or in the future.

In the south of Ireland*, trans women have been able to declare themselves women and have the state change their documentation to reflect that declaration since 2015. The sky has not fallen. Cis women have not lost anything whatsoever from this. If anything, all of Irish feminism has gained: our struggle for bodily autonomy gains in strength and momentum through this victory for our trans sisters. There are few things as feminists in Ireland we can say we have been pleased to see passed by the state. This, although flawed in its lack of recognition of trans children and non-binary people, is one.

klaaaz wrote: »

The only ones who agree with you are the misogynistic males and the religious extremists.

You are incorrect. There is a huge ground swell of movements actively beginning to protest

the trans-orthodox view that biological sex is a social construct while gendered identities are fixed and innate.

https://www.bera.ac.uk/blog/the-gender-wars-academic-freedom-and-education

(just one tiny example. Am not going to fill pages with links to ongoing protests, discussions, meetings, etc)

Slutmonkey57b

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So what issues have arisen in Ireland?

Tell you what, you answer the question I've asked twice

"Does a transwomen have any meaningful experience that allows them to speak on behalf of women, or put themselves forward as women's representatives"

If you're prepared to answer a straightforward question about experience and credibility then I'll do "Let me Google that for you".

But since I suspect your position on both "I've never heard of Aimee Challenor" and "I'm not answering whether transwomen are qualified" is entirely disingenuous I'm not convinced you'd listen anyway if you didn't get the answer you were looking for.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Tell you what, you answer the question I've asked twice

"Does a transwomen have any meaningful experience that allows them to speak on behalf of women, or put themselves forward as women's representatives"

If you're prepared to answer a straightforward question about experience and credibility then I'll do "Let me Google that for you".

But since I suspect your position on both "I've never heard of Aimee Challenor" and "I'm not answering whether transwomen are qualified" is entirely disingenuous I'm not convinced you'd listen anyway if you didn't get the answer you were looking for.

Just for anyone not up to speed on that issue - 2 people on the ruling council of the Green Party UK KNEW in advance that Aimee Challenor's father had kidnapped, held hostage in his attic and repeatedly raped and electrocuted a 10 year old child while he was acting out his sick fantasy of identifying as a minor and wearing a nappy during the rapes - and still the Green Party UK went ahead and appointed Aimee Challenor, who had retained their father as their election agent after the rapes, as their Equality Spokesperson in the UK.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Zorya wrote: »

You are incorrect. There is a huge ground swell of movements actively beginning to protest

https://www.bera.ac.uk/blog/the-gender-wars-academic-freedom-and-education

(just one tiny example. Am not going to fill pages with links to ongoing protests, discussions, meetings, etc)

Again, you're quoting a single person's blog from the UK. This is Ireland which is not the UK.

Over a thousand Irish feminists disagree with you, where are the Irish feminists who agree with your radical views?

Should be put to a public vote.

suicide_circus

klaaaz wrote: »

where are the Irish feminists who agree with your radical views?

probably cowering in fear lest their opinions get them in trouble

Franz Von Peppercorn

klaaaz wrote: »

Over a thousand Irish feminist activists reject your radical view, as well as the legal, medical community and children's rights organisations. The only ones who agree with you are the misogynistic males and the religious extremists.
https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

You may want to look at women’s forums online. I linked to mumsnet earlier. Don’t see what misogynist men have to do with it. In fact these women cheer on Linehan and consider the woke men misogynistic

I don’t know how representative these groups are but they are clearly a strong cross section of society.

Sir Oxman

Zorya wrote: »

Just for anyone not up to speed on that issue - 2 people on the ruling council of the Green Party UK KNEW in advance that Aimee Challenor's father had kidnapped, held hostage in his attic and repeatedly raped and electrocuted a 10 year old child while he was acting out his sick fantasy of identifying as a minor and wearing a nappy during the rapes - and still the Green Party UK went ahead and appointed Aimee Challenor, who had retained their father as their election agent after the rapes, as their Equality Spokesperson in the UK.

And on top of that (and after the above story broke)
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/trans-advisory-group

The bearded bloke below Challenor's entry on this board says he's a lesbian.

This board issue guidance to schOols, unis and police etc in the UK (the UK police adopted their guidance word for word - ie copy and paste)

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You may want to look at women’s forums online. I linked to mumsnet earlier. Don’t see what misogynist men have to do with it. In fact these women cheer on Linehan and consider the woke men misogynistic

I don’t knle how representative these groups are but they are clearly a strong cross section of society.

It's growing into a huge kick back movement. And Klaaaz knows this, most likely. Even last night all over the UK ''ReSisters'' put Woman - Adult Human Female tee-shirts on public monuments. I am not part of any movement, feminist or otherwise, nor do I ever intend to be, but I am glad to see the movement against irrational ideology grow legs.