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Home Automation advice for frustrated Newbie

Irish_peppa

Hi Guys
Newbie here

So I just started my Home automation project in December (Nest (Great) Ring Doorbell (Brilliant device) and loads of TP Link smart Plugs (Excellent Devices) They are all absolutely brilliant devices!
I got a load of TP link plugs but after setting up 25 of them I found that I could only connect a handful of my usual connections (smart phones tablets etc). Rang the Router maker Netgear to be told there is a max amount of simultaneous users of 32 per channel 2.4ghz & 5ghz. How do all you guys have so many IOT devices connected and what sort of Routers are you using . is there some work around so that I can more IOT devices on my 2.4Ghz frequency or is that it 32 IOT devices and thats the end of the line. In the mean time I have my 10 spare smart plugs powered down.
Ideally I would love about 30 TP Link smart plugs and about 15 phones tablets etc House of 7 teenagers / adults
Any advice welcome

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Irish_peppa

Those are business access points. No difference really. But basically the 32 client limit is purely a business decision, a limitation set in firmware, in order to differentiate them from their business offerings. There is no technical limitation, simply a crappy sales tactic, very uncool :mad:

But surely 32 concurrent connections is not much. And if you had say 60 or 100 surely that would be a huge selling point. Weird. I wonder what sort of routers Pubs have. How can they handle 100 clients on a friday night all uploading selfies

So one option you have, is follow ED E's advice, pick up one of those WAC505 * and connect all your smart plugs to it and a separate network, while keeping your X6 for laptops, etc.

* Obviously buy it from somewhere with an easy returns policy, just in case it doesn't work.

I will ill check out the hubs idea too looks like its the way to go

Yep, that is exactly how it works.

I'd also look at the Ikea bridge and plugs. Works in the same way as above. If your only interested in smart plugs, it should be much cheaper, like €10 per plug, versus €60 per plug for smartthings! Though since you already have the plugs, grabbing a second router is a decent idea.[/QUOTE]

Wow Some saving. I might check out the ikea bulbs for my garden lights actually hate LEDS inside but wouldnt mind being able to play with garden and porch lights changing colors etc as their is wifi signal there:cool::cool:

THE ALM

You could look at ditching the two access points and set up something like the Unifi AP's and allow them to handle the wifi. These theoretically can handle 200+ clients although probably around 150 in real world conditions, fantastic pieces of kit.

Another option, as mentioned, would be to use Hue for lighting. If you had the white ambience range you could set various shades of cool to warm white as suits and save on energy, I would imagine even selling off the TP-link plugs would go some distance to paying for it.

The high horse brigade

THE ALM wrote: »

You could look at ditching the two access points and set up something like the Unifi AP's and allow them to handle the wifi. These theoretically can handle 200+ clients although probably around 150 in real world conditions, fantastic pieces of kit.

Another option, as mentioned, would be to use Hue for lighting. If you had the white ambience range you could set various shades of cool to warm white as suits and save on energy, I would imagine even selling off the TP-link plugs would go some distance to paying for it.

This is exactly what I'd suggest. Bite the bullet, sell what you've got and invest in better. I'm sure you'd easily sell what you've got on here.

Have you ever seen Phillips Hue ambiance bulbs in action? We have 10 of them with dimmer switches and motion sensors and have varying degrees of brightness depending on the time of the trigger or button press. They work well with Google Assistant also.

ED E

Irish_peppa wrote: »

I have 6 Seperate SSIDS, 3 for 2.4ghz and 3 for 5ghz all different ids

Yes the limit of 32 includes wired as well you can have a mix or all of both but not exceeding 32 per radio channel 2.4 or 5ghz

i have them configured as Access Points with ethernet cables

I missed something before.

To clear up for anyone reading the thread:
Router + Two APs would give 96 x 2 devices.
The OP does not own any useful access points

The 7000s you bought are trash. They're offloading radio control to the master and thus limiting you way down. There is a benefit in that isolated units won't cul de sac clients but still, naff. Two C20i's would be cheaper and have none of this nonsense.

Drop the range extenders, get two APs for €40 or spend a bit more on the premium Ubiquiti solution. Up to you.

wexfordman2

Would setting a number or all of his sicjets to a fixed IP address help ?

Irish_peppa

ED E wrote: »

I missed something before.

To clear up for anyone reading the thread:
Router + Two APs would give 96 x 2 devices.
The OP does not own any useful access points

The 7000s you bought are trash. They're offloading radio control to the master and thus limiting you way down. There is a benefit in that isolated units won't cul de sac clients but still, naff. Two C20i's would be cheaper and have none of this nonsense.

Drop the range extenders, get two APs for €40 or spend a bit more on the premium Ubiquiti solution. Up to you.

Hi Edd
Thanks for input Unfortunately I might give that a shot but i think the Nightgear X6 will still Limit the C20's it just wont let anymore devices to run concurrently once it detects there are 32 concurrent devices linked back to the Router. So whether i balance load between all the APS it wont make any difference to be honest. I might save up and sell all my Netgear stuff the whole set up cost about 450 euro and just go full TP LINK. I was onto TP link chat support the makers of the C20 and there baseline Routers can run up to 62 concurrent devices per radio double netgears full range ! Netgears top of the line x10 can only run a max of 32 no matter how many APs you have. Very Very Very bizarre sales strategy in this day and age. I really dont get it.
why would they set the firmware to do this is beyond me.

Irish_peppa

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Would setting a number or all of his sicjets to a fixed IP address help ?

I think i took the wrong decision with Netgear. The X6 is fantastic Range... fantastic speed.... great Android ap can reset router from phone from anywhere in the world.. can do most things from app. the GUI on the website when you want to login to the router is really intuitive...looks great the design is very space age but all that is absolutlely no use if 32 devices is the max you can use concurrently in this day and age. sure nearly every thing is going wireless now. I saw even wireless fridges in currys !

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

This is exactly what I'd suggest. Bite the bullet, sell what you've got and invest in better. I'm sure you'd easily sell what you've got on here.

Have you ever seen Phillips Hue ambiance bulbs in action? We have 10 of them with dimmer switches and motion sensors and have varying degrees of brightness depending on the time of the trigger or button press. They work well with Google Assistant also.

Forgot to say Have a ubiquity AP running from a cable power over cable set up. in the Attic too a mate installed the software looked really complicated i think its the Ubiquity Pro blue light ring on it. I did notice thou the signal wasnt great it wouldnt penetrate out of the attic to the second floor but maybe thats because its just an AP its directed down maybe there was just too much material in the middle . it only broadcasts 2.4 as far as i recall. I think that software might be too complcated for me thou. it didnt look too user friendly when my mate was setting it up . Is there an App for it ie can you reset them from your phone app? I really really like that feature with Netgear.

I have never see Philips Hue in action. but at the moment i cant even get half my iot devices online so will be a while before i can look at bulbs it is something i would like to have the ability to do in future when i get a decent network set up:cool:

Irish_peppa

THE ALM wrote: »

You could look at ditching the two access points and set up something like the Unifi AP's and allow them to handle the wifi. These theoretically can handle 200+ clients although probably around 150 in real world conditions, fantastic pieces of kit.

Another option, as mentioned, would be to use Hue for lighting. If you had the white ambience range you could set various shades of cool to warm white as suits and save on energy, I would imagine even selling off the TP-link plugs would go some distance to paying for it.

Hi Allm
Yes the Netgear Setup has to go Pain in the arse setting all that stuff up but hey has to be done. I knew i shouldnt of gone with the x6 for looks lol . Looks can be deceiving . Ill give Ubiquity and TP Link a look:cool:

The high horse brigade

What model Ubiquiti have you, most are dual band?
It should really be installed on the ceiling on the second floor to give you the best signal

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

What model Ubiquiti have you, most are dual band?
It should really be installed on the ceiling on the second floor to give you the best signal

Its the UAP-AC-LITE . It was on the second floor ceiling wired through from attic in the dead centre of the house but wanted signal in the attic above it. The signal wouldnt penetrate to the attic at all so moved it into the attic a few weeks after. Seems it sends the signal directly out in a cone from the blue ring side.
He told me 100% was no 5ghz option but there obviously is now that i look at the spec "Collects feedback on full 5GHz and 2.4GHz" i assume that means broadcasts 2.4 and 5ghz. He must not have known how to set up the 5ghz because its not broadcasting it.

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Its the UAP-AC-LITE . It was on the second floor ceiling wired through from attic in the dead centre of the house but wanted signal in the attic above it. The signal wouldnt penetrate to the attic at all so moved it into the attic a few weeks after. Seems it sends the signal directly out in a cone from the blue ring side.
He told me 100% was no 5ghz option but there obviously is now that i look at the spec "Collects feedback on full 5GHz and 2.4GHz" i assume that means broadcasts 2.4 and 5ghz. He must not have known how to set up the 5ghz because its not broadcasting it.

It definitely has 5ghz. Disabling 5ghz is actually harder to do than just 2.4. Maybe you should find some guides and factory reset it. Tbh I think you should invest further in the Ubiquiti eco system, they're on another level compared to the crap your having trouble with

wexfordman2

So, is the limitation or restriction that the router will notnallocate out any more than 32 ip addresses to the wifi ?

Sorry to be banging on, but if you have 10 wifi sockets on the 2.4ghz wifi, is there any logic in disabling DHCP for these and fixing their IP addresses ?

Interesting thread this, must check my own routers limitations, I dint have wifi iot devices (have a few hubs), but still see my IP allocations go up to high twenties.

Irish_peppa

wexfordman2 wrote: »

So, is the limitation or restriction that the router will notnallocate out any more than 32 ip addresses to the wifi ?

Sorry to be banging on, but if you have 10 wifi sockets on the 2.4ghz wifi, is there any logic in disabling DHCP for these and fixing their IP addresses ?

Interesting thread this, must check my own routers limitations, I dint have wifi iot devices (have a few hubs), but still see my IP allocations go up to high twenties.

CORRECTION:
Ohh sorry not even TP Link;s top of the range domestic router will run any more than 32 concurrent devices per channel.

from chat to TP Link just now

Julia TP Link
No, none of the domestic routers or SOHO routers can run more than 32 per band concurrently

The recommended number of clients for C5400 or 5400X is also 32 for each band. In your case, it is suggested to purchase one of our business routers and then add some EAPs.
It is suggested to purchase one of the following models: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/products/biz-list-4910.html

And then add some EAP products. You may select the EAPs referring to the link below: https://www.tp-link.com/us/faq-1161.html

The TL-ER5120 is a router (wired only) and it can work as a DHCP server for your network. Then you can add some dual band EAPs, and the EAPs will send out the wifi signals

Sorry i dont know what DHCP is or disabling it is. im not that tech savy:o

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

It definitely has 5ghz. Disabling 5ghz is actually harder to do than just 2.4. Maybe you should find some guides and factory reset it. Tbh I think you should invest further in the Ubiquiti eco system, they're on another level compared to the crap your having trouble with

Hi High Horse right it appears anything of a domestic router network from any company will just not work for anyone wanting to get into serious home automation. Ill have to get up to speed on Ubiquity. Do any bricks and mortar shop sell this setup?

And do you reckon this would handle about for instance at any given time
Ubiquity Example:
60 x wirelss 2.4ghz clients ie tablets, smart plugs , ring nest and about 20 wired clients via cat 5 to a switch to the Ubiquity router all running concurrently?

And if so is there a set out of the box Ubiquiti full set up I see all the Access Points but i cant see an actual Router with Antenna

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubiquiti-Networks-UAP-AC-LITE-5-Access-Network/dp/B01BTCVOR0/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&qid=1548590074&sr=8-24&keywords=ubiquiti+router

The high horse brigade

Ubiquiti is enterprise gear used in hotels, conference halls etc. Each single AP would handle 150-200 clients. You cannot compare this to the consumer grade crap you have

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Ubiquiti is enterprise gear used in hotels, conference halls etc. Each single AP would handle 150-200 clients. You cannot compare this to the consumer grade crap you have

ok im with ya. What does the actual Ubiquity router look like I can only see the Access Points on amazon?

Do they have cat5 cable spaces on the back like regular consumer routers?

And your telling me with this setup to Virgin 360mb i could get 100 simultaneous devices running at once? WOuld i need any extra speed from virgin or would they need to change the Virgin Super Hub 3 I currently have. could the Virgin Super Hub 3 handle the 100 plus simultaneous conneections from the Ubiquity?

sounds to good to be true but i believe ya wow i really really went down the wrong route with the domestic stuff.

The high horse brigade

No you would not need extra speed. The router just makes use of the connection you've got. The Ubiquiti router brand is called the Edgerouter. Note, this is just a router, does not have WiFi you would need access points. There are other versions with more ports, this is the entry model

UBIQUITI Networks EdgeRouter X 5 Ports Gigabit LAN/WAN Router https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011N1IT2A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_HgAtCbZHBRX6H

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

No you would not need extra speed. The router just makes use of the connection you've got. The Ubiquiti router brand is called the Edgerouter. Note, this is just a router, does not have WiFi you would need access points. There are other versions with more ports, this is the entry model

UBIQUITI Networks EdgeRouter X 5 Ports Gigabit LAN/WAN Router https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011N1IT2A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_HgAtCbZHBRX6H

i see right cheers for that. Crikey with what i spent on all the Netgear sh1te i could of had a Hotel setup lol :rolleyes: hopefully any future readers of this thread will benefit anyway.:D
great info here thanks Lads:cool:

The high horse brigade

Yes enterprise gear like Ubiquiti and Mikrotik can be bought for less than consumer grade gear but there is a big learning curve

raytaxi

Sorry for jumping into thread. Can I just get one of these access points and disable wifi on existing router and get better coverage ? From what I read on reviews may only also need just one for a standard house ?

The high horse brigade

raytaxi wrote: »

Sorry for jumping into thread. Can I just get one of these access points and disable wifi on existing router and get better coverage ? From what I read on reviews may only also need just one for a standard house ?

Yes. These Ubiquiti are amazing when you ceiling mount them. One mounted centrally on the downstairs ceiling would give great coverage upstairs and down in the average 2 story house. Or in a bigger house 2 of them spread apart to give the best coverage, your devices will roam between them.

wexfordman2

Irish_peppa wrote: »

CORRECTION:
Ohh sorry not even TP Link;s top of the range domestic router will run any more than 32 concurrent devices per channel.

from chat to TP Link just now

Julia TP Link
No, none of the domestic routers or SOHO routers can run more than 32 per band concurrently

The recommended number of clients for C5400 or 5400X is also 32 for each band. In your case, it is suggested to purchase one of our business routers and then add some EAPs.
It is suggested to purchase one of the following models: https://www.tp-link.com/uk/products/biz-list-4910.html

And then add some EAP products. You may select the EAPs referring to the link below: https://www.tp-link.com/us/faq-1161.html

The TL-ER5120 is a router (wired only) and it can work as a DHCP server for your network. Then you can add some dual band EAPs, and the EAPs will send out the wifi signals

Sorry i dont know what DHCP is or disabling it is. im not that tech savy:o

DHCP is where he router assigns out internal IP addresses to your devices in the lan, and is normally done by your router.

When setting up new devices (ie your WiFi sockets ), they should have the option if getting their IP address via DHCP (the router assigns them), or via manual assignment (you assign an IP address to each of them ).

So, let's say your lan ip range is from 192.168.1.1 through to 192.168.1.254, then what you could do is manually assign your WiFi sockets IP addresses from 192.168.1.250 down.

I'm curious as to whether or not this would aleviate your problem.

Irish_peppa

wexfordman2 wrote: »

DHCP is where he router assigns out internal IP addresses to your devices in the lan, and is normally done by your router.

When setting up new devices (ie your WiFi sockets ), they should have the option if getting their IP address via DHCP (the router assigns them), or via manual assignment (you assign an IP address to each of them ).

So, let's say your lan ip range is from 192.168.1.1 through to 192.168.1.254, then what you could do is manually assign your WiFi sockets IP addresses from 192.168.1.250 down.

I'm curious as to whether or not this would aleviate your problem.

To do that would you go into the router settings page , but from what I can see it wouldnt make any difference as yes I could assign them their own IP addresses but still the Wireless router will limit the 2.4ghz to 32 concurrent users so either way with a domestic router whether its something top end for 400 euro or lower end basic 80 euro you will still have the same 32 limit problem on each radio 2.4 and 5ghz :eek:
no way around it

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Yes. These Ubiquiti are amazing when you ceiling mount them. One mounted centrally on the downstairs ceiling would give great coverage upstairs and down in the average 2 story house. Or in a bigger house 2 of them spread apart to give the best coverage, your devices will roam between them.

Cheers High Horse:
Another Ubiquity Question for ya,

Can I leave my Current router X6 Nighthawk in place still emitting the current wifi signal. And got two new Ubiquty Pro's 1 downstairs or 1 upstairs leaving the existing in the attic would that allow loads of extra devices or would the 3 Ubiquity Pro's get throttled / limited by the existing Router to the 32 devices? Would they have the firmware built in to do that or are they slaves ultimately to the base router . station you mentioned whether it be TP link Netgear or the Ubiquity Base Station
Do you have to get the Ubiquity Base Station set up that you mentioned above to avail of the 150 plus concurrent users?

ED E

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Hi Edd
Thanks for input Unfortunately I might give that a shot but i think the Nightgear X6 will still Limit the C20's

Shouldn't

The reason the limit is "shared" between the Netgear units is their turnkey solution. Off brand the Netgear would have no interaction and would see the wireless clients of the TPs as plain wired devices.

The high horse brigade

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Cheers High Horse:
Another Ubiquity Question for ya,

Can I leave my Current router X6 Nighthawk in place still emitting the current wifi signal. And got two new Ubiquty Pro's 1 downstairs or 1 upstairs leaving the existing in the attic would that allow loads of extra devices or would the 3 Ubiquity Pro's get throttled / limited by the existing Router to the 32 devices? Would they have the firmware built in to do that or are they slaves ultimately to the base router . station you mentioned whether it be TP link Netgear or the Ubiquity Base Station
Do you have to get the Ubiquity Base Station set up that you mentioned above to avail of the 150 plus concurrent users?

That could be overkill. You would need to be very careful with your channel choices in 2.4ghz. Why not just get one for the downstairs and leave the nighthawk in the attic. If you configure them both with the same SSID and encryption key your devices will roam but that will be a little more difficult with different brand devices.

Irish_peppa

The high horse brigade wrote: »

That could be overkill. You would need to be very careful with your channel choices in 2.4ghz. Why not just get one for the downstairs and leave the nighthawk in the attic. If you configure them both with the same SSID and encryption key your devices will roam but that will be a little more difficult with different brand devices.

The VM Super Hub 3 modem Nighthawk and all the cabling terminate in the downstairs Network press centrally located with all the cat5s wired back allready
I guess what im asking is would this work do you think or do I have to take the X6 out of the equation alltogether to get the 100 Plus concurrent users

MODEM
Virgin Super Hub 3 (Modem Mode as is)

ROUTER
Nighthawk X6 (Current Wireless Setup as is) x 32 devices
(Using for some androids IOT Devices DVR etc )

WIRELESS POINTS
Ubiquity Pro Downstairs x 20 devices Google Homes, Chromecasts Androids
Ubiquity Pro Landing x 15 Devices Google Homes Chromecasts Androids
Ubiquity Pro Attic x 5 Devices

The X6 Range is Unreal i can get signal in the attic 2 floors up !

Great info here theres a hell of a lot to take in with this Ubiquity but seems to be the main contender

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/ubiquiti-unifi-wifi-explained/

https://wirednot.wordpress.com/2017/04/29/the-idiots-guide-to-ubiquiti-unifi/

Irish_peppa

Good Analogy for setting up Wifi

Home Wifi evel V Enterprise Level

Setting up Wi-Fi is a lot like setting up a Bar (pub), both Wi-Fi and bars have a lot in common. In bars you have bartenders (Barmen or Barmaids) and with Wi-Fi you have access points (AP’s). In a bar you have clients (people) and with Wi-Fi you have client devices.
The goal of a bartender is to serve clients (people).
The goal of Wi-Fi access points is to serve client devices (such as laptops, phones, tablets).
So, it’s the same principal but instead of wine and beer access points serves ones and zeros (00101111001010), binary.

So simple, if you think about it; anyone can set up a bar where you serve one clients at a time, that’s not high capacity and that’s also how we describe ‘Home Wi-Fi’.
Wi-Fi gets a bad name in enterprises and hotels, because people say ”At my home the Wi-Fi is perfect, but when I come to work or a hotel the Wi-Fi is terrible”
It is because home Wi-Fi is a piece of cake to set up. Like serving one or two clients at a bar is simple that’s effectively what your home router is doing, it’s not exactly ‘High Capacity’ once you have the Wi-Fi coverage that’s all that matters.
Where it gets complicated is when there are lots of clients in the bar with high demand on the product and that’s when you need the expert bartenders. This principal is the same with Wi-Fi access points, tons of clients and a demand on data. That’s your typical Hotel Wi-Fi, Stadium Wi-Fi, Commercial Wi-Fi demands and that’s where the Wi-Fi experts at SenSys Technology can configure the correct solution.

Another option you could consider, is to flash OpenWRT or one of the other open source firmwares on your Netgear. I don't think these open source firmwares have any such limitation on number of devices.

Of course that is non trivial and might brick your router, but it is an option.