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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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ThePanjandrum

Folkstonian wrote: »

I do think most English people would be horrified if they knew the level of antipathy that large sections of Ireland have for them.

Yet an Irish girl I used to work with who came from Cork and who would regularly have a go at the English was distraught when she thought that she might have to return to live in Ireland.

Incidentally, she didn't want the United Kingdom to leave the EU and was horrified when I mentioned (by name) the majority of her fellow workers whom she liked who had voted to leave. This confused her because all her friends and acquaintances told her that Leavers were hate-filled, racist bigots and she knew that the people she worked with were not like that.

Just a final word, when you talked to a lot of the old boys (like my father-in-law) who came over in the fifties, they would say that it wasn't the English who were the problem, but people who came from different counties in Ireland would never employ you.

listermint

I saw this and thought it was too amusing not to share in context with the McEntee and Humphreys interview.

https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1089083878546067457?s=20

Sam Russell

judeboy101 wrote: »

Doesn't prevent border on island. The 6 counties would have to be in sm

There are other requirements as well.

1. The single electricity market

2. The VAT system so that VAT is not chargeable at point of entry.

3. The VET inspections at ports to go to 100%, plus SM inspections - like Cert of Origin, SM conformance, etc.

plus many more I'm sure.

Professor Moriarty

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't see a lot wrong with it as a question.

Most of these interviews are framed to have a few questions for the interviewee to 'bat away'. That was one for Helen McEntee.
If the question had come from a fellow debater then yes it would be stupid and arrogant. But from an interviewer its ok. Up there with 'should your leader resign?' 'are you confident you have the correct policy?' etc.

Well, I thought it was a form of trolling. Unless he was utterly uninformed. Why should Ireland 'join' Britain in leaving the EU? What an arrogant suggestion. Never mind the fact that he hadn't a clue about the fact that the vast majority of Irish people are pro EU. Or he knew and was trolling as I say.

judeboy101

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Juncker tells May that the price for any discussion on the backstop is a permanent customs union:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/juncker-may-backstop-eu-customs-union

Doesn't prevent border on island. The 6 counties would have to be in sm

Leroy42

I think the big thing that always strikes me, and was again apparent on the Humpreys interview, is the UK continuing to ask why the EU haven't come up with a different solution than a backstop.

Why is nobody asking why TM agreed to it, why Davies agreed to it, why Boris agreed to it? And further to that, apart from the "do nothing at all" calls, there has no been a workable alternative provided by the UK, which McEntee alluded to a number of times.

So the EU came up with their solution and the UK have come up with nothing, well apart from magic technology which by the sheer fact they are so scared of the backstop shows even they don't think will happen.

But the BBC et al have seemingly simply forgotten to ask any of this and they are completely focused on asking what are the EU going to do. Even some of the amendments for net week are of the variety of simply remove the backstop, without giving any indication of how they intend to deal with the issue.

Bit cynical

Akrasia wrote: »

Whatever about the customs union, the brexit leave campaigners during the referendum were absolutely adamant that they were campaigning to leave the EU but stay in the single market

"‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan"

Nigel farage wanted us to be like Norway and Switzerland, ie, in the single market

Owen Patterson said "only a madman would leave the market"

The brexit vote and Theresa May's red lines have nothing to do with each other

If I remember correctly Hannon was part of a fairly small group arguing for continued membership of the single market.

While Norway is in the single market it is not correct to say that Switzerland is in the single market, and neither Norway nor Switzerland is in a customs union with the EU.

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/25/one-way-england-achieve-brexit-achieving-independence-uk/

Well there we have it, once they are out of EU they will turn on each other.

Paywall for that link.

Here is a full version.

https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/ajzqh0/theres_one_way_for_england_to_achieve_brexit_and/

An Ciarraioch

Juncker tells May that the price for any discussion on the backstop is a permanent customs union:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/juncker-may-backstop-eu-customs-union

Zubeneschamali

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/25/one-way-england-achieve-brexit-achieving-independence-uk/

This I would pay to see. A United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland and perhaps Wales could stay, too.

London would vote to remain in the UK, of course, so the new capital would be, let's see, Chelmsford.

And a new, proudly independent nation, the finest in the wide world, Engerland.

Flag: George's cross, innit.
National anthem: Vindaloo.

UsBus

Just listened to the Humphrys interview...

First off all, Helen McEntee, excellent speaker, very clear and concise in everything she says. 10 out of 10 for keeping calm and collected with the shear arrogance of Humphrys.. When you hear that kind of rhetoric from the UK you really feel like telling them not to let the door hit you on your way out. It's mind boggling, the questioning of Irish politicians after the circus that is British parliament over the last 2 years..It was their decision to leave, how about sorting your own mess out. Once again Helen McEntee, top notch in response to an arrogant interview. I thought more of Humphrys but this opinion seems rife over there.. If they do crash out, which now looks likely due to stubbornness, we'll do fine with McEntee & Coveney.. Leo, well Leo is Leo...

Spanish Eyes

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Anyone a link to the McEntee interview?

This is a "clickable link" for sharing obviously

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrtlNLg1lqQ

cml387

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't see a lot wrong with it as a question.

Most of these interviews are framed to have a few questions for the interviewee to 'bat away'. That was one for Helen McEntee.
If the question had come from a fellow debater then yes it would be stupid and arrogant. But from an interviewer its ok. Up there with 'should your leader resign?' 'are you confident you have the correct policy?' etc.

I thought that John Humphries was quite respectful in that interview, and you must remember his job is to ask questions that British people want to hear answers to, and questions that are "arguing" from the opposite view of the interviewee.
That said helen mcEntee was extremely measured in her responses in what has been a difficult week for the Irish government.

However his false statement about exports from the ROI to the UK seems to have come from Brexit central, and in that was disappointing.

FrancieBrady

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Presumably you missed the question in quotes that I was answering, "How was Obama partisan."

But in answer to your first question, I do get upset about a government using my money to promote a particular view that I disagree with and I would expect people with a different outlook to feel upset when it happens to them.

He was only 'partisan' because you disagreed with him. Which is why the 'neutral' Downcow tripped himself up.

Obama was speaking BEFORE the referendum vote took place, before we knew what the majority view was, therefore he was just offering his opinion which he is entitled to have and which a government is entitled to have.
Isn't that why downcow is against referendums? He thinks the government should make these decisions. They did make a decision to back Remain.

ThePanjandrum

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So we are to be upset by a government who support Remain asking somebody to underwrite that position?

Did Leavers invite both opinions to address their meetings? I must have missed that non- partisanship gesture. :rolleyes:

Presumably you missed the question in quotes that I was answering, "How was Obama partisan."

But in answer to your first question, I do get upset about a government using my money to promote a particular view that I disagree with and I would expect people with a different outlook to feel upset when it happens to them.

ArmaniJeanss

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. However, it didn't stop him asking a monumentally stupid and arrogant question.

I don't see a lot wrong with it as a question.

Most of these interviews are framed to have a few questions for the interviewee to 'bat away'. That was one for Helen McEntee.
If the question had come from a fellow debater then yes it would be stupid and arrogant. But from an interviewer its ok. Up there with 'should your leader resign?' 'are you confident you have the correct policy?' etc.

Akrasia

Bit cynical wrote: »

I don't think leaving the customs union can be regarded as a red line although it is made out to be; it is too fundamental to the brexit referendum result. It is a bit like saying leaving the EU is a red line. To be a legitimate red line, I would say that it has to be something extraneous to the main negotiation that is nevertheless insisted upon.

Whatever about the customs union, the brexit leave campaigners during the referendum were absolutely adamant that they were campaigning to leave the EU but stay in the single market

"‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan"

Nigel farage wanted us to be like Norway and Switzerland, ie, in the single market

Owen Patterson said "only a madman would leave the market"

The brexit vote and Theresa May's red lines have nothing to do with each other

Professor Moriarty

Bit cynical wrote: »

In fairness Humphrys is a highly respected journalist.

Indeed. However, it didn't stop him asking a monumentally stupid and arrogant question.

jm08

EdgeCase wrote: »

So, to say there's a general antipathy towards English people is a bit unfair and inaccurate.

I'd agree. Jack Charlton is another one who took on hero status here and at the moment both Stuart Lancaster and Andy Farrell (I know he has strong Irish connections) are well respected and liked. I haven't heard one negative comment about their nationality and both of them seem to like being here.

Bit cynical

Strazdas wrote: »

The backstop came about because of May's red lines. The EU proposed that NI be in a special customs union and GB could be free to do whatever it wanted, including sign trade deals, but May said 'No'.

The idea of the UK being in a UK wide customs union with a backstop came from the British themselves.....the EU were reluctant to go down this route and were actually ruling it out early last summer.

I don't think leaving the customs union can be regarded as a red line although it is made out to be; it is too fundamental to the brexit referendum result. It is a bit like saying leaving the EU is a red line. To be a legitimate red line, I would say that it has to be something extraneous to the main negotiation that is nevertheless insisted upon.

First Up

downcow wrote:

and as for the example i gave of how eu doesn't run very efficient. i guess you think thats a fine way to run an operation

I think its a pretty ridiculous reason to throw away membership of the largest and most prosperous trading bloc on the planet where you get 44% of your business.

Strazdas

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'd add that the late Mo Mowlam is probably at the level of folk hero in Irish political circles and she's very definitely English. She earned huge respect here and was extremely well liked.

Even John Major is very well liked and has made regular appearances here and he's a Tory.

I'd even go as far as saying that Queen Elizebeth has managed to be quite liked, even if many of us don't agree with the concept of a monarchy, she's come across very well, built bridges, even laid a wreath at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin and got a pretty warm welcome as a visiting head of state from nextdoor.

It's very much an antipathy towards an arrogant aspect of British politics / Little Englander type and I honestly don't think that's unique to Irish people either. They've rubbed the entire EU up the wrong way too and they are absolutely not representative of the whole of English culture anymore than Trump's representative of the majority of the US.

So, to say there's a general antipathy towards English people is a bit unfair and inaccurate.

As I said above too, the hardliners appear to be winning the political and media battle. People calling for a second referendum are being accused of being undemocratic and defying "the will of the British people".

It would be very easy to interpret the current stand off between the UK and Ireland as representing anti-British feeling from the Irish side but it's really the Brexit crowd and nobody else who are in the thick of things (and they are running the UK of course......this is a very right wing and Eurosceptic government by any stretch).

Bit cynical

Hurrache wrote: »

Humphry's is getting slated by sensible Brits for that interview, and McEntee phrase for her remarkable restraint in dealing with the clown.

In fairness Humphrys is a highly respected journalist.

EdgeCase

Strazdas wrote: »

Are you sure you're not confusing it with antipathy towards the Brexit crowd? I would say the voices of the moderates like Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Chuka Umuna etc are well regarded in Ireland.

Irish people are well able to separate out the hard Brexiteers and know that they don't speak for the whole of England. Unfortunately though, the hawkish hardliners are winning the argument, drowning out the moderate voices, speaking with great authority and as if they represent the entire English nation. Put on any edition of Question Time or whatever and all we ever seem to hear is loud, angry Brexiteers.

I'd add that the late Mo Mowlam is probably at the level of folk hero in Irish political circles and she's very definitely English. She earned huge respect here and was extremely well liked.

Even John Major is very well liked and has made regular appearances here and he's a Tory.

I'd even go as far as saying that Queen Elizebeth has managed to be quite liked, even if many of us don't agree with the concept of a monarchy, she's come across very well, built bridges, even laid a wreath at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin and got a pretty warm welcome as a visiting head of state from nextdoor.

It's very much an antipathy towards an arrogant aspect of British politics / Little Englander type and I honestly don't think that's unique to Irish people either. They've rubbed the entire EU up the wrong way too and they are absolutely not representative of the whole of English culture anymore than Trump's representative of the majority of the US.

So, to say there's a general antipathy towards English people is a bit unfair and inaccurate.

Strazdas

Folkstonian wrote: »

I do think most English people would be horrified if they knew the level of antipathy that large sections of Ireland have for them. I didn’t have any idea how strong the feeling was until I started working here and subsequently took more of an interest in the political discourse.

I wouldn’t say that there is a deliberate ignorance in Englsnd towards Ireland but it’s only natural that we tend to look ‘upwards’ when consuming foreign media.
In Ireland people follow English sports, culture and politics to a degree that I have been surprised by, but in England people also look ‘upwards’ massively and consume ridiculous amounts of American television, sports, comedy and politics.

Just look at the numbers that protested on the streets of London following trump’s election, an event that was literally nothing to do with the English.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with antipathy towards the Brexit crowd? I would say the voices of the moderates like John Major, Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Chuka Umuna etc are well regarded in Ireland.

Irish people are well able to separate out the hard Brexiteers and know that they don't speak for the whole of England. Unfortunately though, the hawkish hardliners are winning the argument, drowning out the moderate voices, speaking with great authority and as if they represent the entire English nation. Put on any edition of Question Time or whatever and all we ever seem to hear is loud, angry Brexiteers.

UsedToWait

Infini wrote: »

for absolutely no benefit for anyone in Europe and the UK at all. PERIOD.

Except the disaster capitalists, who will be delighted to hoover up 'distressed assets' and the currency and market speculators who can profit from a freefall, and those who wish for deregulation, which will allow a diminution of workers rights, food safety, further privatisation of the NHS etc..

Coincidentally, many of Brexit's 'leading lights' have an interest in the above scenarios,

EdgeCase

Folkstonian wrote: »

...but in England people also look ‘upwards’ massively and consume ridiculous amounts of American television, sports, comedy and politics.

That's something that will also bite rather hard as they've an assumption that they've some kind of political influence in the US due to a special relationship that most Americans are entirely unaware of.

However, I wouldn't say there's a deliberate ignorance, but there is a rather surprising lack of any knowledge of what is *their* history. Irish history until 1921 was fully part of British history and the Northern Ireland troubles occurred almost exclusively in the UK - Northern Ireland being part of the UK and the majority of major attacks occurring in Northern Ireland or in Britain itself.

I just find it somewhat odd that they can just sort of package it up as "over there" and nothing to do with them.

Also to be honest, on an interpersonal level there isn't huge antipathy towards the English in Ireland. I have English relatives and lots of connections to England and Scotland at various levels of my family.

Any antipathy tends to be because of what happened during the war of independence era, particularly the use of the Black and Tans and so on. That was in widespread living memory until relatively recently and those kinds of memories tend to become cultural.

Also I would say that most Irish people tend to get on very well with most English people. It's just that there is a rather obnoxious layer in an aspect of the Tory party and English nationalism that genuinely tends to rub pretty much everyone up the wrong way. They're somewhat hard to like.

But, whatever about all of the above, it's mind-boggling that a high-level current affairs presenter would be so poorly briefed.

I don't expect your average person in a pub to know much about Irish politics, anymore than your average Irish person's going to know the ins and outs of how the House of Lords works, but I would expect a leading current affairs presenter on RTE or BBC to and I would hold them to a totally different standard.

My expectation of BBC current affairs is that it should be up here at the level of a political science department in a university.
It's supposed to be a world-leading, public broadcaster at the top of its game. They've VAST resources and expertise to pull from and they're increasingly behaving like they're some cheapo tabloid.

I think it's utterly reasonable to hold the BBC to a far higher standard.

Folkstonian

EdgeCase wrote: »

I've been quite taken aback by comments on that topic in Britain over the years. A lot of people don't seem to have any idea of the circumstances of our leaving the UK back in the 1910s and assume that it was just some kind of amicable divorce.

I actually had one guy talking to me in a pub who seemed to be under the impression that our leaving the UK was something to do with the EU !?!?!

But in general, they seem to think that Ireland is somehow 'family' and should be on ultra warm terms with them.

There's a similar complete lack of awareness about the colonial era around the world and an assumption that various places that actually had wars of independence against them are going to be rushing to re-join some kind of Empire 2.0.

I don't think it's (in most cases) an attitude that comes from any kind of nasty place, rather just absolute ignorance of history. There's a tendency to see the imperial period in this very oddly positive way as if it were some kind of act of friendship and benevolence. It's really quite odd.

Also a lot of people in England genuinely don't seem to understand that Ireland is not in the UK.
I remember having a discussion with someone in a health centre there about how I didn't have a national insurance number because I was Irish. She argued : But you're British if you're from Ireland, how do you not have one...
It actually took a significant amount of explaining before she accepted that it was actually a different country.

None of that, however, can excuse that level of ignorance from someone presenting a flagship current affairs programme on BBC Radio 4. It's not a chat in a pub.

The BBC for decades was above politics and a benchmark of quality current affairs broadcasting. It's depressing to see it losing is standards.

I do think most English people would be horrified if they knew the level of antipathy that large sections of Ireland have for them. I didn’t have any idea how strong the feeling was until I started working here and subsequently took more of an interest in the political discourse.

I wouldn’t say that there is a deliberate ignorance in Englsnd towards Ireland but it’s only natural that we tend to look ‘upwards’ when consuming foreign media.
In Ireland people follow English sports, culture and politics to a degree that I have been surprised by, but in England people also look ‘upwards’ massively and consume ridiculous amounts of American television, sports, comedy and politics.

Just look at the numbers that protested on the streets of London following trump’s election, an event that was literally nothing to do with the English.

Infini

downcow wrote: »

I honestly would have struggled with it. I was naturally prob very slightly remain but had huge issues with how Europe is run. But the intervention of Obama and the likes, combined with our government spending millions on a propaganda leaflet telling us to vote remain would have probably been enough to push me to vote for Brexit. I know i had a smile to myself when i heard the vote coming through in France - I felt thats one up for the ordinary man

It wasn't a one up for the ordinary man it was basically shooting yourselves in the foot. No-one is denying the way Europe is run is perfect their response to the financial crash was far from perfect and the haphazard way with the refugee crisis was definitely less than ideal and the whole structure does need improvement for accountability but there's a difference between fixing something and walking away because one cannot get their own way. There are no benefits only drawbacks to all of this and the common man is going to get shafted for this.

The whole vote itself was a dysfunctional Tory exercise in incompetence. Not only did leave not have a clear plan on HOW to leave without causing massive damage BUT they're seemingly fine with crashing out causing damage to everyone but most of all to themselves for absolutely no benefit. When asked what these benefits are for Brexit they can only come up with soundbites not anything coherent: In other words they're taking out of their hole and haven't got a real clue as to what to do. The problem with all this is people voted partially as a protest and out of fear (this coming during the refugee crisis) but there is also evidence of dodgy campaign funding and blatant cheating by the Leave side. If there was any responsibility in government this alone should have should have been cause for either a delay or a rerun of the Brexit Referendum because of possible outside interference but those in charge are too cowardly to do so.

Through all this the whole process has been one of breathtaking arrogance from the UK that it can just bully those into getting its own way. When they don't some of them began resort to tired anti-Irish tirades thinking this is 50 to 100 years ago and that they can bully our country around forgetting we got the backing of 26 other member states and our position is reasonable and based on trying to minimize the damage being caused to our country BY them. We don't have to move to accommodate their blatant foolishness over this. The backstop is purely for one thing: keeping as much of the status quo on this island as possible because NI did NOT vote to leave in all of this and whether you like it or not or whether the DUP likes it or not that's a fact. When asked how the backstop negatively affects them all they come up with is slogans and soundbites they've not once come up with a tangible argument as to how it would affect them beyond ideological ones not PRACTICAL ones. This is all while ignoring pretty much the entire farming and business community of NI. They're ideologues which in my opinion is the pure definition of idiots and dumbásses because they put themselves before the good of everyone in NI and would rather cause damage to everyone for noone's benefit but for their own spite. If they had real tangible arguments that stood up to scrutiny it would be a whole different story here but they don't.

For everyone's sake I honestly hope that Brexit ultimately end's up being cancelled or the WA is ultimately passed because the no deal scenario is not just incompetent and stupid, it basically causes damage to everyone but to Britain more than anyone else for absolutely no benefit for anyone in Europe and the UK at all. PERIOD.

Tell me how

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Anyone a link to the McEntee interview?

See below

Tell me how wrote: »