I bet you didnt know that

banie01 wrote: »

A quirk of history that I have always found fascinating, is that the Messerschmitt Me109, the most successful fighter ever flown in terms of enemy aircraft shot down and the mount of many of Nazi Germany's top pilots was initially flown in prototype form with a British Rolls Royce engine.
The original flight capable prototypes were designed for the Jumo 210 engine with Daimler as a future option but both were still in early development so Messerschmitt bought 4 Rolls-Royce Kestrel engines to progress testing.

As a further irony, the very last versions of the Me-109 in service.
The Spanish built Hispano Ha112's were equipped with the engine that powered the main UK/US nemesis of the Me-109.
The Rolls-Royce Merlin as flown in the Hurricane, the Spitfire and the Mustang.

So the top German fighter was birthed with, and died with a British engine.

And in the 1960's film Battle Of Britain the Me109's they collected together were the Hispano versions, many of which were on loan from Franco's Spain. The Heinkel bombers were also Spanish and some of the aerial scenes were shot in Spain, which you can sometimes spot as the ground is a decidedly un green fields of England brown. That film also gathered together and saved some of the last Spitfires and Hurricanes of different versions from the scrap heap and got them flying again. One two seater ex Irish Air Corp I believe two seater was used as a camera plane. In the end they got 100 aircraft of various types together. A fair few of those ex film planes are still flying today. By all accounts readying them for flight was a bit haphazard and wouldn't have a hope in hell of passing health and safety today.

They tried to get the British Imperial war museum's JU87 Stuka up and running too and did a few high speed runway test runs but decided against it as it was only one of two of them left in the world and so used mostly models instead. Here it is at the time being tested out in 1968 IIRC.

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Probably the last time one was started and taxied. Funny enough that particular example was built towards the end of the war for the ground attack role and had its dive brakes removed, so wasn't a dive bomber anymore.

And to tie with your story above B, the other aircraft the Germans prototyped with the same British Kestrel engines was the above JU87 Stuka.

And like the ME109 it went all the way through the war relatively unchanged and was favoured by many of its pilots over more modern aircraft that had been designed to replace it.

One area of research with the Stuka that was to have wider use after the war were their studies into G forces on the human body. Pulling out of a usually 90 degree dive a Stuka pilot could experience 6 G. They had a few accidents with guys passing out, so they did a lot of research on how to reduce this. They found for example that altitude had a major impact on it and that at higher altitudes with no supplementary oxygen even pulling much more than 2 G could lead to blacking out. Temperature was a factor too. The other thing they did was install an automatic "computer" to pull out of the dive. Pilots almost always ignored it as they didn't trust it. Though spare a thought for the rear gunner in the back, diving backwards... Balls of steel. :eek:

Renegade Mechanic

I would absolutely love to know what the universe is expanding into. Its a question that crosses my mind frequently..

Esel

Space?

Infinity and beyond, probably.

banie01

Some of the German experimental efforts in flight were really extreme!
Most people with a passing interest in aviation know that they were @ 5 years ahead in actual technical terms but that this was stymied by the fragmented production and control system that even under Speer never really allowed for maximum output.
Top that off with multiple agencies controlling and directing their war research with concurrent squabbles for resources, the allies were lucky that they never took a leaf out of the US government controlled scientific research.
The precursor to DARPA really focused US/Allied research into practical and immediate research.

The American's started the German fascination with divebombing (They had a similar effect on Japanese Naval observers).
Some Curtis's Helldivers if I recall correctly demonstrated some extremely accurate for the time (early 30's) bombing accuracy and it stoked German interest in utilising it in combined arms operations.
The issue with automatic pullout to avoid G-loc even led to the Germans testing dive bombers flown by pilots in a prone position!

I can't imagine nosing over face first into a dive and having the wherewithal to aim a bomb and bloody pull up at the end of it!

Ineedaname

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

I would absolutely love to know what the universe is expanding into. Its a question that crosses my mind frequently..

It's not expanding into anything. Universal expansion means the space between points is getting bigger.

On a local scale gravity is able to overcome the expansion but on a larger scale there are galaxy clusters moving away from us at an accelerating rate.

The further away a galaxy is the faster it is moving away. The Cosmic Event Horizon is the point that after which the rate of expansion is faster than the speed of light.

banie01 wrote: »

I can't imagine nosing over face first into a dive and having the wherewithal to aim a bomb and bloody pull up at the end of it!

Just after the war British test pilot Eric "Winkle" Brown was among a couple of guys sent to collect and test as many of the German machines they could get their hands on. He had a major advantage as he could speak German fluently(and had lived there for a time before the war IIRC). So he had a go of pretty much every German aircraft of the war, including the new jets and even gliding flights in the even newer rocket planes. Gliding flights as the fuel was so horrendously dangerous they didn't want to risk it. The stuff was hypergolic , that is it ignited when you mixed two components together, which cut down on complication(and similar was used on the Apollo moon lander engine), but the two liquid components were horrible, melt your skin off horrible.

He also flew a few of their jets, bombers and fighters and was mostly impressed, though engines could go bang with little warning. On one occasion with a jet bomber he was running up the engines in the drivers seat while a German engineer was beside him. Everything looked to be going OK, until he noticed out of the corner of his eye the German lad had got up and was legging it as fast as his legs could carry him away from the aircraft. Then there was a loud bang as one engine ate itself. Words were exchanged after that, in the type of German they don't teach you in language schools.

Annnnyhooo, so our hero Winkle(so named cos he was a little lad. Most of his body mass appears to have been giant balls) came across a Stuka sitting on the tarmac and thought off we go. He had flown all the allied dive bombers and thought them pretty awful, but he said the Stuka though feeling vulnerable because of the high(but great view) cockpit and slow speed, was the best of the type he'd flown by a large margin. He said it in most planes even 45 degrees feels like your tipping over yourself, but at 90 degrees straight down the Stuka was as happy as a pig in poo and very stable and easy to point at a ground target. He reported he spent a few hours thoroughly enjoying just doing mad dives around the countryside. As you do. So I reckon you'd enjoy it B. I can only imagine what the pretty recently bombed civilians on the ground thought, but their screams go unrecorded... He also noted the aircraft had great brakes for landing, something that most German aircraft were very much lacking.

A while later the same Eric was asked to look at a couple of new helicopters that the Americans had given the RAF. So off he goes has a jaunt as a passenger and went back to base. A few days later, him and another lad were tasked with collecting them and flying them to their base. They arrived expecting an instructor to teach them to fly the yokes. Which is a bit mad as anyone who has even a passing interest in flying machines knows helicopters are the devils own work to learn and yet... But nope. They were handed a manual and told, there's your instructor. Earlier I mentioned Eric's large liathroidi, well it seems his pilot mate had the same genetic abnormality and after a couple of whiskeys(yeah. Really) they hopped in and had a go. They got the general gist of it and off they flew, though he noted they were sweating bricks the whole way and flying a few miles apart.

Then there's the German woman test pilot who before the war flew early helicopters indoors, but that's for another day...

I mentioned the Apollo Lunar Lander earlier. Well a few years back at a Grumman dinner for retired lads and lasses who worked on it, Neil Armstrong sent them a letter to thank them for the great job they did. As he noted each flight was a test flight and an operational one and barring a few minor glitches the spacecraft worked and more and surprisingly it was a very nice flying machine on top. Something all the Apollo lads who flew them specifically noted and all said they had a little twinge when they sent it off on it's way afterwards. It also saved the lads of Apollo 13 acting as a "lifeboat", something it was never designed for. Not bad for the only true manned spacecraft humans have ever built and flown.

banie01

Eric Winkle Brown is a hero of mine!

Made such a massive contribution to aviation, to test pilot skills and was a genuinely lovely man.

Most people will look at his log book and say noone will ever fly more types.
And I doubt any pilot will ever take more carrier take off and landings either.
He really was a remarkable combination, most people agree carrier aviation is the most skilled fixed wing discipline, he was not only the most experienced carrier pilot ever.
He went above and beyond in developing methods that are still used today, he played a large part in the angled flight deck and mirror landing system developed by the British and perfected by the Americans.
Some of the things he managed in aircraft are unbelievable.
His testing of the DH Vampire landing it with no undercarriage on an aircraft carrier with a "flexible" deck!

The one thing I feel he was robbed of was due to British post war cloth cutting and that's that he should be more famous than Yeager!
The Brits had an excellent high speed flight programme in the immediate post war and Brown was chosen to pilot the Miles M52 which was designed to be supersonic.
Unfortunately the plane was cancelled and Bell got there 1st, albeit in a very cheaty manner

Air dropped and rocket propelled rather than self launching.

I honestly think he was a man ahead of his time and who had balls of absolute tungsten backed by unbelievable skills to match.

Many moons ago I met him and got a book signed by him. Really lovely bloke and yep a little fella. Only in feet and inches, in everything else a giant.

banie01

Wibbs wrote: »

Many moons ago I met him and got a book signed by him. Really lovely bloke and yep a little fella. Only in feet and inches, in everything else a giant.

Me too! Met him a couple of times and always so bright and engaging.

Wibbs wrote: »

Then there's the German woman test pilot who before the war flew early helicopters indoors, but that's for another day...

Hanna Reitsch. A true believer

banie01 wrote: »

Unfortunately the plane was cancelled and Bell got there 1st, albeit in a very cheaty manner
Air dropped and rocket propelled rather than self launching.

They also "appropriated" the rear one piece moving elevators. The Brits had a lot of experience and know how in the run up to supersonic flight, often with Spitfires flown up mad high and then aiming at the ground with extreme prejudice. They found that the wing though of a much older design had some issues but was pretty good even at such speeds. On that note the famous elliptical wing of the Spitfire...

Was actually a German invention. A German engineer/scientist whose name sadly escapes

had come up with it as the ideal wing in the early twenties. One of his students later went to work for Supermarine and... Let's put it this way none of the previous wing designs they had looked like it. It had a couple of advantages, one of the biggest was the angle of attack at the root was greater than at the tips, so it would give plenty of warning to even the most hamfisted or inexperienced of pilots that a stall was going to happen, while they still had control, which was one big reason why they could turn tighter than an ME109. The latter was a fantastic little plane, but had leading edge slats that automatically popped out at low speeds but rarely simultaneously, so instant flat spin. In the hands of an expert it was deadly, but killed a lot of raw pilots. The Spit wing was also good as it made it deep enough to house the machine guns, though pilots at the time preferred the Hurricane as a gun platform and it could take more damage and was easier to land and taxi. As they said at the time; Spitfire, she's an angel in the air, but a total bitch on the ground.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Hanna Reitsch. A true believer

Aye but huge ovaries of solid steel. I have her book too, first edition, before they edited out the more "troublesome" parts.

Wibbs wrote: »

The Spit wing was also good as it made it deep enough to house the machine guns, though pilots at the time preferred the Hurricane as a gun platform and it could take more damage and was easier to land and taxi. As they said at the time; Spitfire, she's an angel in the air, but a total bitch on the ground.

Can't remember who said it, but comparing the Spitfire to the Mustang. He'd prefer the Spitfire over the UK but the Mustang over Berlin on the basis it could get there and back.

The English Electric Lightning was an impressive beast. Two Avon jet engines took you to Mach 2 but it had thin wings so couldn't store much fuel in them

So the first supersonic aircraft to be deployed in Western Europe used Avon jet engines. It was of course the Saab Draken. Later versions got to Mach 2.

And it had good thick wings so could hold lots more fuel.

And exactly half as many engines as the Lightning.

And the Typhoon had really thick wings. So a disappointment at high speed and high altitude. But exactly what you want at low level.

Of course having a water cooled engine meant that a hit in the cooling system meant you had 10 seconds before it seized up and then you were a goner because there was no chance of bailing out at 100ft.

LostinBlanch

OK veeery late to the party here. How did I miss this thread? :eek:

I did a quick search and couldn't find this one, so here we go.

A chefs hat traditionally has 100 folds in it. One for each way you can cook an egg.

I bet Eric Winkle Brown didn't wear one when dive bombing in a Stuka.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

One of the most famous artists and architects in Mexican history was Juan O'Gorman. His father was born in England to Irish parents and later moved to Mexico. He painted many famous murals and designed the central library of the National Autonomous University of Mexico.

His brother was Edmundo O'Gorman, who a famous historian of the country.

Eagle's talons, in case you were wondering how big they were.

The Pheasant2

Anders Shy Aircraft wrote: »

Yes, Wolverines are the largest land based mustelids.

With the Giant Otter being the largest mustelid overall, if anyone's wondering

You'd have needed to have that amount of money to invest in the first place, but it was money well invested!

New Home wrote: »

You'd have needed to have that amount of money to invest in the first place, but it was money well invested!

You'd wonder how they could legally do that if it was a lifetime unlimited offer. But still, fair play to Steve.

mzungu

Wibbs wrote: »

You'd wonder how they could legally do that if it was a lifetime unlimited offer. But still, fair play to Steve.

Taken from wiki:

Steve Rothstein, a financier then from Chicago, upgraded to a lifetime AAirpass for $233,509.93 on October 1, 1987 after a discount of $16,490.07 for the value of mileage on a previous AAirpass. He added a $150,000 companion pass 2 years later. Rothstein negotiated additions to the contract, including a provision for his companion to fly on flights immediately before or after his flight. During the more than 10 years Rothstein owned the pass, he traveled more than 10 million miles, accumulated over 40 million frequent flier miles (all of which he gave away), made more than 500 trips to England alone and cost the airline more than $21 million according to them. On December 13, 2008, Rothstein checked in at Chicago O'Hare International Airport with a friend for a flight to Bosnia. A letter from the airline was hand-delivered to him at the airport informing him that the pass had been terminated due to fraudulent behavior, specifically his history of approaching passengers at the gate and offering them travel on his companion seat. Rothstein sued American Airlines in Federal District Court, arguing that "American waived its rights to enforce the contract by not cracking down on Rothstein sooner" according to District Court Judge Virginia Kendall who denied Rothstein's motion in 2011. Litigation was delayed due to the airline's filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. By the end of 2012, the two parties appear to have settled their case out of court, with Rothstein's appeal dismissed and the airline's counterclaims dismissed with prejudice.

Maybe they had some T&Cs they were able to use as an excuse. And I guess they then included a "fair usage" clause in the tickets they issued since then (if any at all).

EDIT: NVM.

joeguevara

New Home wrote: »

Maybe they had some T&Cs they were able to use as an excuse. And I guess they then included a "fair usage" clause in the tickets they issued since then (if any at all).

EDIT: NVM.

Was there something similar with Ryanair where a woman won a lifetime unlimited ticket but they cancelled it because she was using it so much. She won her legal case.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryanairs-broken-promise-of-free-flights-for-life-costs-67500-26045284.html

New Home wrote: »

Eagle's talons, in case you were wondering how big they were.

https://i.imgur.com/D48Lxa5.jpg

This is a cassowary they run through the bush and undergrowth. They don't dodge the branches and stalks.
They run through the bush and undergrowth and anything in their way.

This what their dainty little feet look like.

They're like a cross between a dinosaur, a bird and a rhinoceros...

thesandeman

New Home wrote: »

You'd have needed to have that amount of money to invest in the first place, but it was money well invested!

He would have had to take two flights per day. He mustn't have seen anywhere except airports.

Maybe that included connecting/stop-over flights. I'm thinking George Clooney's "Up in the air".

quickbeam

"American Airlines flies to 95 domestic destinations and 95 international destinations" (per Wiki, though of course it could be different during the time he flew). That equates to visiting each destination 52 times. Would kinda get boring?

Interline? Or, if he did it for work, first class would've beaten commuting on a train or driving.