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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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Thomas_IV

lawred2 wrote: »

A real politician worth any salt would have called their empty bluff

Quite right, but unfortunately the HoC these days is more comparable to the Muppet Show than to a serious Parliament that cares about the future of the country and the population.

It's either that there are less or no real politicians worth any salt or they are not heard. Fact is, neither May nor Corbyn fit in that description of a politician, more the selfish ones like.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

No, it did not mean I voted for SF. But I do not expect the DUP to drop their mandate to represent me and the other remainers.
They are thankfully not the government of NI and so do not have to abide by the outcome of the vote.
It might be short sighted of them not to do so, but that is their call.

They are 'partners' in the government of northern Ireland and steadfastly refuse to implement the will of the people.
This isn't just the case with Brexit, they have done the same with regard to decisions made by the majority who voted for the GFA, resulting in that process stalling and the denial of rights enjoyed by everyone else on these islands.

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

We do not have a government. It collapsed over 2 years ago.

Because one party steadfastly refuses to recognise the democratic will expressed by the people and are supported in taking party positions when they have been mandated to do otherwise.

josip

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If not for the snap election giving the DUP ridiculous power, the whole border issue would have been done and dusted in December 2018, with the agreed backstop meaning no hard border.

Perhaps, but in that scenario the ERG and other hard Brexiters would have found another mast to nail their colours to.

Hurrache

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Was debunked by Wednesday afternoon but no correction from the Indo!

They're taking a different attacking approach today. I think someone needs to take a trip to the editors office to check they're not all being held in there by a Brexiteer expedition force.

Under Siege: world leaders take 'tax haven' swipe at us

Hurrache

Car crash interview with Tim Martin of Wetherspoons as to what his issues are with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2019/jan/25/owen-jones-meets-tim-martin-wetherspoons-no-deal-brexit-poverty-wages-dont-ask-childish-questions-video

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

More Indo **** stirring this morning- apparently we are “Under Siege” due to our corporation tax. We might as well call give up as a country if you take the Indo literally

Just reading through from last night and haven't read anything else so far this morning, so I was going to ask what crap the indo has published today.

Anyone else getting suspicious about the mendacious nature of the stories? Qui bono?

RT funneling a load of cash to Talbot Street?

road_high

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Just reading through from last night and haven't read anything else so far this morning, so I was going to ask what crap the indo has published today.

Anyone else getting suspicious about the mendacious nature of the stories? Qui bono?

RT funneling a load of cash to Talbot Street?

Was headline in their app version- I can’t seem to copy paste it to here! It was an article about taxation and Davos conference.

Yea, definitely something or someone is trying to create a chasm between us and europe.

road_high

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/under-siege-world-leaders-take-tax-haven-swipe-at-us-37747655.html

Here we go...

Hurrache

road_high wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/under-siege-world-leaders-take-tax-haven-swipe-at-us-37747655.html

Here we go...

Don't click the link, but I posted the headline above

Under Siege: world leaders take 'tax haven' swipe at us

prawnsambo

road_high wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/under-siege-world-leaders-take-tax-haven-swipe-at-us-37747655.html

Here we go...

Headline: Wolrd leaders take a swipe.
Body: One leader from Poland...

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Brexit is a Westminster issue. The government is conservatives. As much as I world have preferred the DUP to adopt a more balanced approach, they are within their rights to go to Westminster on a brexit platform as that is what they stood for and were elected in.

If, however, the assembly was up and running, then I would expect OFMDFM to adopt the will of the people and lobby TM accordingly.

However, both SF and DUP have abandoned the electorate. And so here we are...

The DUP abandoned their enshrined commitment to ensure the will of the people was done, a long time ago. Hence the inability of any democrat to sit in government with them.

road_high

prawnsambo wrote: »

Headline: Wolrd leaders take a swipe.
Body: One leader from Poland...

Unknown until today! Poland are a pariah govt within Europe and using this as an angle of attack

road_high

The Indo has been toilet paper for decades- it’ll be the preferred paper for Gemma O’Doherty types soon

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP abandoned their enshrined commitment to ensure the will of the people was done, a long time ago. Hence the inability of any democrat to sit in government with them.

What is very irritating is when DUP MPs, as they are being interviewed on British TV, speak about what the "people of NI want". They were elected by 36% of the people of NI and latest polls show that they are supported by 30% of the people of NI. It would be far more honest to say "The people that I represent." But that would be wishful thinking.

prawnsambo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I've seen this a couple of times, whats the deal with the permits, or more correctly, the complete lack of them? Who is issuing them and surely they must be aware that 60 is a farcically small number given the situation???

This I think refers to ECMT permits that are issued by each country to allow non-national vehicles transit their territory. It's part of emission controls under the OECD / International Transport Forum. Countries like Ireland would have very little need for these as it's unlikely that vehicles from outside the EU would end up in our territory. But on 29th March at 11:00pm we will suddenly have borders with a non-EU territory and there won't be enough permits.

The permits have to be applied for and are based on a quota system, which means that changing the number would require a hefty amount of negotiation. The countries that participate in the scheme are as follows:

Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and United Kingdom.

So it's not an EU system, it's just that membership of the EU dispenses with the need for these permits as the EU is treated as one territory for haulage purposes. Also important to note that this system is based on vehicles (not drivers or haulage companies) and structured according to emissions of the vehicles concerned. The UK as a whole has just under 1000 of these permits for HGVs.

ancapailldorcha

road_high wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/under-siege-world-leaders-take-tax-haven-swipe-at-us-37747655.html

Here we go...

Mod: Please don't just paste a link without any sort of comment or opinion as to its contents. Thanks.

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

Was headline in their app version- I can’t seem to copy paste it to here! It was an article about taxation and Davos conference.

Yea, definitely something or someone is trying to create a chasm between us and europe.

Yeah, I read the article and I actually had to tweet at the indo about it. It's rather pathetic.

BonnieSituation

road_high wrote: »

The Indo has been toilet paper for decades- it’ll be the preferred paper for Gemma O’Doherty types soon

Very true, but it's very popular and well read toilet paper.

Isn't their website the second most popular in the country?

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

We are starting to sidetrack this thread. I certainly don't disagree about the DUP being an abhorrent party - I'm stuck in one of their 'safe seats' so I know all too well about them.
Although, SF are no angels either. But let's not detail this thread.

Well I certainly didn't claim that there are any fully angelic parties in politics. But some 'angels' have dirtier faces than others!

Professor Moriarty

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Very true, but it's very popular and well read toilet paper.

Isn't their website the second most popular in the country?

Fine to publish minority views, but I think a lot of these articles are deliberately inflammatory. Essentially they are clickbait. The IT sometimes does the same but not nearly as much.

Kermit.de.frog

The Independent through some of it's false reporting in recent weeks has actually done some damage to Ireland's perceived position. The Independent had two headlines that were picked up in the UK press and run with.

One was that Varadkar said to other party leaders at a meeting that checks would have to be put between the EU mainland and Ireland. Even Sinn Féin came out and said that was a completely false take.

There was another one but can't think of it off my head.

But both either total lies or incompetent journalism that Brexiteers seized on as showing division between us and the EU.

Shoddy "journalism"

Havockk

Hurrache wrote: »

They're taking a different attacking approach today. I think someone needs to take a trip to the editors office to check they're not all being held in there by a Brexiteer expedition force.

Before long there will be an orchestrated Irexit campaign that will prob ramp up from the indo.

trellheim

A lot of politics is looking at Yvette Cooper's amendment on Tuesday which will further throw mud into the water ( it tries to take No-Deal off the table ) . It more or less presupposes an A50 extension but I cannot for the life of me see the EU granting it without a big big change in HoC intentions

Hurrache

Breitbart UK, Cambridge Analytica and advocate for Britain leaving on WTO terms gets an absolute mauling when actually questioned on why Britain should move to WTO rules.

WTF British media hasn't been asking these people these questions before is shameful
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1088725166266429440?s=19

His wiki entry was subsequently amended
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1088748628582248449?s=19

Shelga

What do we think the chances of no deal are now then?

Will they sleepwalk into it? I can’t see enough MPs supporting anything to stop it, be that an extension to article 50, revoking it, or a people’s vote.

Why are they having another vote on the dead deal next week?

Have the EU said anything about the circumstances under which they might offer an extension?

murphaph

Havockk wrote: »

Before long there will be an orchestrated Irexit campaign that will prob ramp up from the indo.

I wouldn't be surprised but it would seem very unlikely to succeed. The Irish basically know the score... we're a small open economy and leaving the EU would be economic suicide. We know we're not superior somehow to our continental partners. We know the EU is not perfect too, but we know where we'd be without it.

FrancieBrady

Hurrache wrote: »

Breitbart UK, Cambridge Analytica and advocate for Britain leaving on WTO terms gets an absolute mauling when actually questioned on why Britain should move to WTO rules.

WTF British media hasn't been asking these people these questions before is shameful
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1088725166266429440?s=19

His wiki entry was subsequently amended
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1088748628582248449?s=19

I watched that last night. Absolute car crash of an interview where the other panelists were openly laughing at him.

Won't have much effect on those like him though. 'We'll be alright' seems to be the default.

Professor Moriarty

trellheim wrote: »

A lot of politics is looking at Yvette Cooper's amendment on Tuesday which will further throw mud into the water ( it tries to take No-Deal off the table ) . It more or less presupposes an A50 extension but I cannot for the life of me see the EU granting it without a big big change in HoC intentions

And there is no majority in the HOC for anything apart from No Deal. Going to the EU with just that might not be enough to persuade the EU. Also, let's not forget that every country has a veto. It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility that a country with a gripe against the EU might see this as an opportunity to flex its muscles.

Havockk

murphaph wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised but it would seem very unlikely to succeed. The Irish basically know the score... we're a small open economy and leaving the EU would be economic suicide. We know we're not superior somehow to our continental partners. We know the EU is not perfect too, but we know where we'd be without it.

But what if there is a hit to the economy in less than 70 days and a hard border? That's fertile breeding ground for the likes of those behind this nonsense in the first place. No complacency.