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Seen & Found

slowburner

Here's a place to post and discuss pictures of sites or artifacts of general archaeological interest.
If you are not sure where to post up material you have seen or found, post here.

Please note that all archaeological objects must be reported to the National Museum of Ireland. See the stickies on the landing page.

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Wibbs

Defo not Clactonian

Lovely piece though. Looks water rolled to me? I'd hazard a guess at neolithic?

pueblo

Wibbs wrote: »

Wow P, you have a real winner there. The bulb of percussion couldn't be any more obvious if it tried. And the general forming and the retouch too. It could nearly be a Mousterian point. What are its dimensions P?

Thanks Wibbs.

It's 56mm long x 27mm wide.

Regarding the material I am not sure it's flint, I know it's hard to tell from a poor quality photo, but could it be something else?

It is a very fine grained material of a predominately grey colour with a brown tinge.

Interestingly I have been reading 'New materials, traditional practices: a Mesolithic silicified dolomite toolkit from Lough Allen, Ireland' by Killian Driscoll and the material seems very close to his description of Silicified Dolomite which can look very different depending on weathering etc.

If not Mousterian could it be Clactonian??

Another couple of slightly better photos..

Wibbs

Wow P, you have a real winner there.

The bulb of percussion couldn't be any more obvious if it tried. And the general forming and the retouch too. It could nearly be a Mousterian point. What are its dimensions P?

pueblo

Found this piece today. My guess is it's either a flint backed knife or a projectile point. Opinions please.

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/X63sT6n

pueblo

Some pics of a few different pieces.

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/bjiGQoR

pueblo

slowburner wrote: »

Most likely a natural, water rolled cobble.

However, it could be a rough-out. There are possible knapping scars along one long edge.
Difficult to say from photos alone.
The petrology looks suitable. Possibly Andesite.
It’s worth reporting one way or the other.

Thank you. I am arranging to bring a number of recent finds up the NMI in the next week or so, it will be interesting to see what they think.

I will post a few more pics here of some other finds before the 'artefacts' leave for their destined drawer or dustbin!

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

Can anyone advise whether this is a likely small polished stone axe? It seems to have some damage to the 'bit'?

It sort of feels right to me but I have been wrong before and I want to know whether it needs to be reported or not.

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/U79dihi

Most likely a natural, water rolled cobble.

However, it could be a rough-out. There are possible knapping scars along one long edge.
Difficult to say from photos alone.
The petrology looks suitable. Possibly Andesite.
It’s worth reporting one way or the other.

pueblo

Can anyone advise whether this is a likely small polished stone axe? It seems to have some damage to the 'bit'?

It sort of feels right to me but I have been wrong before and I want to know whether it needs to be reported or not.

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/U79dihi

pueblo

slowburner wrote: »

Any chance of a view of the broken edges to show the fabric of the sherd?
And is it flat or curved in section?

A couple oif shots of the broken edge..

https://imgur.com/a/TFkoRAy

In section it has a slight curve, this would mean it was likely a wide vessel?

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

What if it had only recently been washed into the river?

Would you still expect oxidisation if it had been buried in soil?

Yes, iron will oxidise if buried in soil.

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

..and lastly for the moment, can anyone tell me anything about this pottery sherd. I am getting a Medieval feel, but little do I know.

Thanks

(Front)
https://imgur.com/bnFIy8c

(Back)
https://i.imgur.com/SHZPV8a.jpg

(Front, closer shot)
https://imgur.com/xZv2bln

Any chance of a view of the broken edges to show the fabric of the sherd?
And is it flat or curved in section?

pueblo

slowburner wrote: »

It's not bog iron. It could be slag but I am not seeing the typical oxidisation associated with iron (rust!). Possibly a slag from another metal. Curious that it's magnetic.

What if it had only recently been washed into the river?

Would you still expect oxidisation if it had been buried in soil?

slowburner

pueblo wrote: »

Here's the "iron slag" (my best uneducated guess)....or maybe it's a meteorite? What does bog iron look like?

https://imgur.com/a/I5wNBKB

It attracts a magnet but only weak to medium strength so might contain some other matter, possibly organic matter? if so it could be carbon dated maybe?

Would carbon dating organic matter present in slag be the only method of dating an out of context piece like this (if that's what it actually is)

It's not bog iron. It could be slag but I am not seeing the typical oxidisation associated with iron (rust!). Possibly a slag from another metal. Curious that it's magnetic.

pueblo

..and lastly for the moment, can anyone tell me anything about this pottery sherd. I am getting a Medieval feel, but little do I know.

Thanks

(Front)
https://imgur.com/bnFIy8c

(Back)
https://i.imgur.com/SHZPV8a.jpg

(Front, closer shot)
https://imgur.com/xZv2bln

pueblo

Here's the "iron slag" (my best uneducated guess)....or maybe it's a meteorite? What does bog iron look like?

https://imgur.com/a/I5wNBKB

It attracts a magnet but only weak to medium strength so might contain some other matter, possibly organic matter? if so it could be carbon dated maybe?

Would carbon dating organic matter present in slag be the only method of dating an out of context piece like this (if that's what it actually is)

Wibbs

I'm with SB on the river rolling causing the "saw" edges. As a kid on holiday in France I picked up a few Neandertal lithics that were like that*. And others in the same general area that looked like they had been knapped yesterday and were still "crap I cut meself" sharp.

It looks more like flint to me, though any neolithic stuff I found in Ireland was flint and very obviously that, even to my unschooled eye. That was in Sligo, Easky to be precise and I found them by mistake while looking for fossils(I was a weird kid

). The part that would make me lean more towards chert is the percussion scar on the back that looks rougher, porous. Then again that could be down to preservation and where it was laid down over the years. Again I have French and Spanish paleo flint stuff that has gone porous like that over time.

*looking back, odd I very rarely found later stuff. Maybe I had a blindspot

slowburner

Hard to say for certain from the photo but it looks like flint.

pueblo

slowburner wrote: »

Nice backed blade with a clear platform and scar but the edges are naturally water-rolled.
Probably early. Possibly very early.
Definitely one for the museum.

Thanks SB for that info.

The other blade I found was at put at Late Mesolithic, so would be amazing to have found something predating that.

I have already been in touch with the duty officer at the NMI.

I also have some other bits too including a possible flint scraper and some black chert pieces which appear to possibly have been worked too as well as a lump of metal(?) which could be iron slag, I am hoping this could be Iron Age!

I will try and get some pics up over the w/e.

** Edited to add....Is it definitely flint?

slowburner

Nice backed blade with a clear platform and scar but the edges are naturally water-rolled.
Probably early. Possibly very early.
Definitely one for the museum.

pueblo

Found this at my usual location on River Nore sitting in about 10" of water.

The edges seem quite serrated, is this intentional? Could it be a saw?

Also seems like possibly a very high quality chert as opposed to flint.

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/TjZxtKT

Wibbs

Aye, our ancestors had to be pretty inventive and resourceful with stone materials here. The resources are pretty awful. I've often wondered could this be one of the reasons why humans came so late to Ireland? The ice ages and the like were a major problem of course, but lack of decent material for knapping could have been an issue. Years ago now when I got into the oul knapping I found precious little of the local stuff to be any use. There's some chert, near flint nodules to be found on south coastal beaches, but other wise nope. Even that was chock full of internal inclusions and was a whoer to work with. Awful splintery stuff. Some basalts were OK, the quartzite I could find was too large grained. I can see how mesolithic techniques which required smaller bits of knapped stone in complex tools was advantageous here.

Aelfric

HoteiMarkii wrote: »

How prevalent was the use of basalt in the Mesolithic/Neolithic? This blade is atypical of the type of material I've been finding at this site for the past decade or so. It's quite dark and shiny compared to some of the other chert-like artefacts found.

There's a well recorded Rhyolite industry in Co. Waterford, with crude blades and other tools made that stone. Basalt is a volcanic stone, so it has better knapping properties. If it's all that was available, or the most prevalent stone source, it would have been used extensively.

Quickpip

HoteiMarkii wrote: »

I now see that this feature is north of the two enclosures I mentioned earlier.
Using the 'Layer List' it doesn't appear to be anything of archaeological significance. It certainly looks man-made and may have been an enclosure for holding livestock (I think I can see sheep close by on the Orthophotograph). It's an interesting looking feature nonetheless.

Well mystery solved. The enclosure was actually a small resevoir made in the 1800's. The water was piped of the mountain to supply a sanatorium called the' Rostrevor hills hydro ' which lies at the base of the hill.

HoteiMarkii

Aelfric wrote: »

Looks a touch like basalt as well, apart from the pic showing the dorsal ridge.

Could there be another satellite enclosure immediately to the SE?

How prevalent was the use of basalt in the Mesolithic/Neolithic? This blade is atypical of the type of material I've been finding at this site for the past decade or so. It's quite dark and shiny compared to some of the other chert-like artefacts found. I think I've uploaded similar images here before, but here's an example of some of the artefacts previously found:

There may very well be other circular parch marks there, but this is the only satellite imagery (Google Earth dated 28/06/2018) that shows the large circular enclosure. Previous OSI orthophotographic images don't even show the large recorded circular enclosure.

gozunda wrote: »

Is that one of the Tara related sites revealed this summer due to the drought?

No, this site is in south Kildare.

slowburner wrote: »

Is the enclosure recorded as bivallate? I'm seeing an inner ditch.

No, the enclosure hasn't been recorded as bivallate, but there's definitely another inner ditch there, which I only later noticed after having already sent in the monument report form to the NMS.

slowburner

HoteiMarkii wrote: »

I spotted the circular enclosure (approximately 50 metres in diameter) on satellite imagery several months ago, and it's now on the NMS Sites and Monuments Record database.

Circular enclosure

Is the enclosure recorded as bivallate? I'm seeing an inner ditch.

slowburner

Aelfric wrote: »

Looks a touch like basalt as well, apart from the pic showing the dorsal ridge.

Could there be another satellite enclosure immediately to the SE?

There is definitely something going on there alright.
I'm seeing an 'S' shaped parch mark bisected by a linear (field boundary?) and the lower curve of the (backward) S forming an arc of a subcircular feature. Is that what you have your eye on?

gozunda

HoteiMarkii wrote: »

Not sure if it's chert or silicified limestone. It has been broken at the distal end, and measures 30mm. in length and approx. 8mm. wide. I found it on the surface of plough soil just outside the western edge of a recently discovered circular enclosure. I spotted the circular enclosure (approximately 50 metres in diameter) on satellite imagery several months ago, and it's now on the NMS Sites and Monuments Record database. I'm thinking the 'bladelet' could be Mesolithic or Neolithic in date, perhaps??

...

Circular enclosure

Is that one of the Tara related sites revealed this summer due to the drought?

Aelfric

Looks a touch like basalt as well, apart from the pic showing the dorsal ridge.

Could there be another satellite enclosure immediately to the SE?

HoteiMarkii

Not sure if it's chert or silicified limestone. It has been broken at the distal end, and measures 30mm. in length and approx. 8mm. wide. I found it on the surface of plough soil just outside the western edge of a recently discovered circular enclosure. I spotted the circular enclosure (approximately 50 metres in diameter) on satellite imagery several months ago, and it's now on the NMS Sites and Monuments Record database. I'm thinking the 'bladelet' could be Mesolithic or Neolithic in date, perhaps??

Circular enclosure

Coles

slowburner wrote: »

It would be highly significant if the material for these lithics did indeed come from the midlands.

PDF available here
(the pdf downloads automatically)

That's a great read.