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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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Itssoeasy

I think it's mark francious who is fascinated with the backstop on the late debate on RTÉ.

Sam Russell

Headshot wrote: »

The need to do a house of cards version of UK politics

Actually, you should go and watch 'A very British Coup' with Ray McNally playing the PM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_British_Coup_(miniseries)

Make sure you watch to the very end. Most do not and miss the final twist - listen to the 7 O'Clock news at the end.

Spanish Eyes

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Haven't we always.

No gra for leaving from here AFAIS anyway, nor from any other of the 27. There may be a few grunts and some Right Wing activism. But nothing at all like the Brexit debacle.

Better inside the tent. But the UK doesn't get that they are an island nation and will be beholden to Trump and China eventually and will be swallowed up by any country they eventually in ten years or so make a trade deal with.

They are in la la land. Due solely to their own lack of research and planning. They still haven't a clue and seem not to care. Arrogance and hubris knows no bounds.

Their media is toxic too. All of it, on both sides.

Imreoir2

zapitastas wrote: »

If only Sinn Fein had pledged allegiance to the crown and taken their place in the HoC they could have made all the difference today

I know, it's such a disgrace, they must be kicking themselves for not abandoning their mandate to vote alongside the worst conservative government in history.

Water John

Barry Gardiner half confirming Lb will try to keep looking for a GE rather than pivoting to a 2nd Ref if they fail to win tomorrow, that's a mistake. Lb MPs will get stroppy and force the change.
The leaderships attempt to interpret the vote at Conference in this way is disingenous.

Itssoeasy

Its being talked about on RTÉ radio about the fact that the contingency plans for s no deal from our government were released very late in the process. Why would our government make public the plans for scenario we were all hoping would never happen. If our government put out these plans six months to a year ago, they'd have been accused of being resigned to a no deal situation.

prinzeugen

almostover wrote: »

Yes, the EU has been sending dissenters to the gulags for years and repressing free speech. Not to mention that the EU is a communist cesspit ruled by a powerful ruthless dictator! Seriously, do you actually believe that drivel that you've written?

Did I mention communism? No. Did I mention gulags? No.

The point I am making is that the other than voting for a MEP, the population has zero say in who does what. The EU parliament is like a communist congress. They dish out the jobs to the boys.

And you cannot compare the Queen to the EU president. Two completely different roles. President of the USA to the EU president yes. US citizens can vote for the president. When did you last vote for a EU president????

devnull

It's now being reported that bosses of Amazon, Tesco and other high profile companies have had an emergency late night telephone conference with the Chancellor as they are growing increasingly concerned about the current direction of travel and uncertainty and are now starting to round on the government.

In addition being reported in various sources that anywhere from 75-100 Labour MPs are going to come out and demand a peoples vote as soon as Corbyn's vote fails.

Looks like interesting rest of the week lays ahead.

Anthracite

Deleted User wrote: »

Tesco doesn't care about your purchase, because they're insignificant in terms of their overall financial performance.

Right, and a lot of what Germany sells abroad is high-end engineering products which are not available elsewhere.

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

Barry Gardiner half confirming Lb will try to keep looking for a GE rather than pivoting to a 2nd Ref if they fail to win tomorrow, that's a mistake. Lb MPs will get stroppy and force the change.
The leaderships attempt to interpret the vote at Conference in this way is disingenous.

Labour leadership is showing their colours to the people that boted for Corbyn by ignoring their wishes. Firstly they tried to bypass the wishes of the members at the conference by trying to not to discuss Brexit in any detail. They got away with trying to get a GE first before a Brexit vote and now will repeatedly call for a motion of confidence instead of backing a second referendum.

The perception of him giving power to the Labour membership should be all but smashed if he doesn't start talking about a people's vote soon after losing the no confidence motion.

devnull

Water John wrote: »

Barry Gardiner half confirming Lb will try to keep looking for a GE rather than pivoting to a 2nd Ref if they fail to win tomorrow, that's a mistake. Lb MPs will get stroppy and force the change.
The leaderships attempt to interpret the vote at Conference in this way is disingenous.

Are you really surprised?

As I said previously Corbyn wants power at whatever cost to the country and the people who live in it. He is an enabler of this mess, pure and simple and history is going to be very harsh on the man who sat on his hands and did nothing whilst the lunatics at the asylum in the Tory party drive the car off the edge of the cliff.

He doesn't stand for the Labour party I voted for when I lived in the United Kingdom. That Labour party would have actually provided a proper opposition. The current leadership is a disgrace to the name and history of the party.

Spanish Eyes

A people's vote will just result in a bigger NO I think. The Russkies will rig it again lol.

OK if there are just two choices, WA or Stay in EU, that's not so bad.

A third choice (Hard Brexit) might need PR. OMG the UK don't have much experience of that!

A bit risky but sure what do I know.

WomanSkirtFan8

Bit cynical wrote: »

Given today's events in the HoC, what, in the opinion of those here, should our Government say and do?

Easy, continue to stand firm. We're doing our bit with the help of our EU allies so we've need or reason to try and rock the boat now. Remember, its the UK thats in complete disarray not us or the eu.:cool:

Anthracite

prinzeugen wrote: »

There is so much wrong with that comparison. The USA is more democratic than the EU.

The way they EU is run is more like the Soviet Union or China.

I think the only ones being delusional (seems to be the buzzword here) are those that think there will be a second referendum. Its going to be no deal.

A second referendum is political suicide for the majority of MPs. But I bet Sturgeon will be announcing another Scottish referendum in the next day or so.

Just in case there is another GE or she is forced to resign herself.

The USA is a 2 party system. I'll grant you that's twice as good as a one party system.

Bit cynical

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Our government ? They should keep doing what they've done and keep the head down. It's an agreement between the UK and the EU not Ireland on its own. I honestly don't know where they(the UK) go from here. I mean yes the people voted to leave the EU but it's also clear the politicians tasked by the people of carrying out those wishes can't agree on how to do it.

Yes, our government.

The thing is we gave our government, in particular the Taoiseach, praise when May and the EU agreed on a deal. Presumably had the deal passed in the HoC today, this would be further evidence of the (our) Government's effectiveness. We, with our EU colleagues, it would be said, have secured a deal that works for Ireland and Europe, guarantees an open border with the North and frictionless trade with all of the UK. Our (Ireland's) policy has worked.

Now, however, the opposite has happened. The question is, therefore, at what point do we say that our policy or our way of thinking is not working? What constitutes failure on our part?

Anthracite

prinzeugen wrote: »

Did I mention communism? No. Did I mention gulags? No.

The point I am making is that the other than voting for a MEP, the population has zero say in who does what. The EU parliament is like a communist congress. They dish out the jobs to the boys.

And you cannot compare the Queen to the EU president. Two completely different roles. President of the USA to the EU president yes. US citizens can vote for the president. When did you last vote for a EU president????

What rubbish. You also vote for your own government, which votes on your behalf for the rest of the institutions, or is itself a part of the institutions.

You really need to read a book or something on this.

Tell me how

Itssoeasy wrote: »

As was said there was one. I only watched the first couple of episodes when it was on Netflix and it was very good. The shows yes, minister and yes, prime minister are also excellent shows based around Westminster and British politics.

And for a modern version, The Thick of it.

I was hoping they would do a special series as Brexit developed bu the creator, Armando Iannucci, said that you cannot satire something as messed up as this.

How right he was.

bob mcbob

prinzeugen wrote: »

Did I mention communism? No. Did I mention gulags? No.

The point I am making is that the other than voting for a MEP, the population has zero say in who does what. The EU parliament is like a communist congress. They dish out the jobs to the boys.

And you cannot compare the Queen to the EU president. Two completely different roles. President of the USA to the EU president yes. US citizens can vote for the president. When did you last vote for a EU president????

The point I am making is that the other than voting for a MEP, the population has zero say in who does what. And Westminster is different in what way?

They dish out the jobs to the boys. And Westminster / Dail is different in what way?

And you cannot compare the Queen to the EU president. Two completely different roles. Can you explain why this statement is correct?

Thanks

prawnsambo

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes, our government.

The thing is we gave our government, in particular the Taoiseach, praise when May and the EU agreed on a deal. Presumably had the deal passed in the HoC today, this would be further evidence of the (our) Government's effectiveness. We, with our EU colleagues, it would be said, have secured a deal that works for Ireland and Europe, guarantees an open border with the North and frictionless trade with all of the UK. Our (Ireland's) policy has worked.

Now, however, the opposite has happened. The question is, therefore, at what point do we say that our policy or our way of thinking is not working? What constitutes failure on our part?

How can the Taoiseach be responsible for the crapshow in the HoC? They can't agree among themselves and somehow that's our fault? Are you suggesting that we should have caved on the border?

Russman

Just watched David Davis on BBC saying the EU always cave, “ ........they wait til the last month, week, day, hour, even second.....”
He reckoned the Irish farmers, German car makers and French wine producers will ensure the EU gives in and gives the UK what they want.
I honestly hope to God he’s wrong this time and the EU does hold firm, these people need a lesson in humility.

prinzeugen

Anthracite wrote: »

What rubbish. You also vote for your own government, which votes on your behalf for the rest of the institutions, or is itself a part of the institutions.

You really need to read a book or something on this.

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

Donald Trump

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes, our government.

The thing is we gave our government, in particular the Taoiseach, praise when May and the EU agreed on a deal. Presumably had the deal passed in the HoC today, this would be further evidence of the (our) Government's effectiveness. We, with our EU colleagues, it would be said, have secured a deal that works for Ireland and Europe, guarantees an open border with the North and frictionless trade with all of the UK. Our (Ireland's) policy has worked.

Now, however, the opposite has happened. The question is, therefore, at what point do we say that our policy or our way of thinking is not working? What constitutes failure on our part?

They did secure that deal. Only thing is that UK HoC won't pass it. So I don't know what exactly your point is. Do you expect that the onus is then on the Irish politicians and civil service to go over and do Mays deal of getting it across the line on her side.

She agreed to something that she should have and could have delivered.

A Dub in Glasgo

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

You can't vote for the head of state in the UK

Tell me how

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes, our government.

The thing is we gave our government, in particular the Taoiseach, praise when May and the EU agreed on a deal. Presumably had the deal passed in the HoC today, this would be further evidence of the (our) Government's effectiveness. We, with our EU colleagues, it would be said, have secured a deal that works for Ireland and Europe, guarantees an open border with the North and frictionless trade with all of the UK. Our (Ireland's) policy has worked.

Now, however, the opposite has happened. The question is, therefore, at what point do we say that our policy or our way of thinking is not working? What constitutes failure on our part?

What do you think would constitute success on behalf of our government and then we can discuss how we might achieve that.

Personally, I think our elected representatives have been close to perfect on Brexit. And I include Micheal Martin's position on that.

You only have to look at Labour to see how a wannabe PM can put their needs before that of the country.

theguzman

devnull wrote: »

It's now being reported that bosses of Amazon, Tesco and other high profile companies have had an emergency late night telephone conference with the Chancellor as they are growing increasingly concerned about the current direction of travel and uncertainty and are now starting to round on the government.

In addition being reported in various sources that anywhere from 75-100 Labour MPs are going to come out and demand a peoples vote as soon as Corbyn's vote fails.

Looks like interesting rest of the week lays ahead.

If those lads are getting worried then its clear this is good for the ordinary guy, if the British establishment have the brass neck to try a Nice or Lisbon II stunt with Brexit it will be a 70% Leave Hard Brexit. When the corporate crooks are worried its always a good thing.

Brexit will give short term instability and upheavel but the long term outlook will be great to be away from undemocratic EU Franco/German Dictatorship.

Strazdas

Bit cynical wrote: »

Given today's events in the HoC, what, in the opinion of those here, should our Government say and do?

Tony Connelly said on the News that the result takes a lot of pressure off Ireland. It shows that the backstop is not the key issue at all and that Brexiteers hate May's deal in general and for 101 different reasons.

bob mcbob

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the high up EU jobs are so diluted to the point its undemocratic. You can vote for a president in the US. You cant in the EU.

The US president can -
- Take the country to war
- Stop paying salaries for the government employees
- Build a wall

Can the EU president do any of this?

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

Just watched David Davis on BBC saying the EU always cave, “ ........they wait til the last month, week, day, hour, even second.....”
He reckoned the Irish farmers, German car makers and French wine producers will ensure the EU gives in and gives the UK what they want.
I honestly hope to God he’s wrong this time and the EU does hold firm, these people need a lesson in humility.

It would be the end of the EU if that happened. And there's actually no history of the EU caving at the last minute, that's just made up by Davis. The EU are noteworthy for delivering hard-nosed trade deals. Witness all the squealing in the US about having to meet EU standards.

Spanish Eyes

Strazdas wrote: »

Tony Connelly said on the News that the result takes a lot of pressure off Ireland. It shows that the backstop is not the key issue at all and that Brexiteers hate May's deal in general and for 101 different reasons.

I doubt many of them even know NI is part of the UK and care less about GFA either.

prinzeugen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You can't vote for the head of state in the UK

The head of state is symbolic not political. Like most EU monarchy now. Big, big difference.