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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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Lord Glentoran

tubbs26 wrote: »

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

tubbs26

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

Hueston West station came from one of the maps on Metrolink consultation plan
https://www.metrolink.ie/#/public-consultation

See page 22. Its looks like an P10 in Heuston

Beta Ray Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

I find it interesting that people talk about Electrification of national routes, yet ignoring the fact that with the exception of the Dublin <-> Cork and Dublin <-> Belfast routes, all the other lines are single track.
So it doesn't matter if they are faster, you cant run the trains regular enough.

And even at that, from Grand Canal Dock to Howth Junction (Some could argue Malahide) the line is very congested. Express trains such as the Enterprise need to slow down when they get as far as Malahide during rush hour as their is a DART every 10 mins (which I'll come back to in a minute).
The Bus from Dublin to Belfast is faster than the train
I've said before that they need to add more track between G.C.D and H.J (new signalling system isn't enough), they need at least 1 additional line, ideally 2 additional lines
It should have been done years ago before An Bord Pleanala gave planning permission for buildings that are less than 15 ft away from the track.
I was told I was mad when I suggested that on this thread about 6 months ago, but it's obviously not that mad as BusConnect are taking parts of peoples front gardens for Bus Lanes.

The there's the issue with Cork Train... Goes to Heuston, which is a 34 min walk to Dublin City Centre and the major financial districts. (Luas Red line.... No Thanks...)

We've no train station and Dublin Airport or Dublin Port
Dublin Airport has (had) a train station built AFAIK but no track going out to it
Dublin Port has track nearly the whole way out to the ferry terminal but no Train station

The other thing that REALLY bugs me about the 10 min trains is that a lot of them are only 6 cars long.
They don't have enough rolling stock to service 8 car Darts at 10 min intervals during rush hour.
The sidings at Clontarf depot are full at night, there is no more room for additional trains, there is also no space to expand the depot. So that to will need to be moved at some point very soon (Or an additional depot built), if there is to be expansion of the DART.
I guarantee No minister has thought of this, they just think they can buy a few extra trains, hire a few drivers and run electric cable out to the likes of Leixlip and Dunboyne.

Irish rail need to get the basics right before they can justify the huge cost of electrifying the national rail network (But that's just my opinion)
Like I agree that it DEFINITELY should be done, but there is other low hanging fruit that could achieve huge benefits, that they could do right now.
With Brexit on the cards, Train station and Dublin Port is a must.

I fully accept trains are far more comfortable than a Bus and I'd much rather take train, but the buses go into the city Centre.

Dats me

If you look at the Irish Rail vision 2030 document it addresses most of this.

Irish rail want 4 tracks to Balbriggan and Dart Underground obviously, then you could have a spur to the Airport and run intercity trains through the tunnel to St Stephen's Green and terminate at the airport.

A really lovely plan but sure look, Varadkar wants a €3bn income tax cut instead. Obviously it all can be done but as you said if buses can do it, and we've spent the money on the motorways already, it's hard to justify billions on intercity rail as much as I'd love it.

lateconnection

grahambo wrote: »

The sidings at Clontarf depot are full at night, there is no more room for additional trains, there is also no space to expand the depot. So that to will need to be moved at some point very soon (Or an additional depot built), if there is to be expansion of the DART.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the depot situation once the DART Expansion Programme is complete.

Fairview is small, constrained and also cannot do any heavy overhaul work on DART units, they have to go to Inchicore or Drogheda. This of course means that a DART unit is out of service longer due to the transfer times to Drogheda/ Inchicore. In addition, a locomotive or a 29000 class unit has to be sourced to move the DART.

There is no wheel lathe in Fairview either, which does not help matters.

The Drogheda Depot is a good maintenance facility, and I could see this being converted to a DART Depot. But I think it is more of a maintenance depot rather than a stabling facility, the facility can only hold around 12-14 full 8-car trains, which is around the same size as Fairview. This could be a problem. Significant shunting is also required in Drogheda Depot.

Any new DART Depots will need a lot of stabling space for potentially 20+ trains.

Any new DART Depots should be entirely self-sufficient and should not be reliant on Inchicore.

I would say that there will be a new depot on the Maynooth Line somewhere, and another one out near Hazelhatch.

As for the Northern Line, I think Fairview should be relocated. The depot shed is an obstacle to any future four-tracking of the line. Perhaps a new depot on a greenfield site in North Dublin might be a good idea....

The newer sidings on the Alfie Byrne Road side could stay though, and could be expanded further with some CPOing…

Irish Rail will also lose their stabling yard at Connolly due to redevelopment in the next few years. This is currently a key stabling point for commuter trains.

When Dart Underground and the electrification to Maynooth and Drogheda were originally being planned, were any sites for depots identified?

AngryLips

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

Just call it Conyngham Road station and be done with.

Ireland trains

When IÉ eletrify the line to Hazelhatch will any darts run into heuston.
I assume portlaiose commuter trains will then be sped up and their first stop will be hazelhath instead of park west.
Will they only eletrify the slow lines or will the eletrify the fast line as far as hazelhatch.
Finally on the quad track section today why did irish rail decide to have the 2 fast lines far away from eachother unlike the West coast mainline in britian where the 2 fast tracks and 2 slow tracks are side by side
Eg ireland
Fast up_______________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________
Fast down ________________

Britian
Fast up ________________
Fast down________________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________

Dats me

Ireland trains wrote: »

When IÉ eletrify the line to Hazelhatch will any darts run into heuston.
I assume portlaiose commuter trains will then be sped up and their first stop will be hazelhath instead of park west.
Will they only eletrify the slow lines or will the eletrify the fast line as far as hazelhatch.
Finally on the quad track section today why did irish rail decide to have the 2 fast lines far away from eachother unlike the West coast mainline in britian where the 2 fast tracks and 2 slow tracks are side by side
Eg ireland
Fast up_______________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________
Fast down ________________

Britian
Fast up ________________
Fast down________________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________

In the UK how does the slow down pull into the station then?

Beta Ray Bill

lateconnection wrote: »

Any new DART Depots should be entirely self-sufficient and should not be reliant on Inchicore.

This is key. They absolutely have to have this.
Problem is the DART is starting to become a victim of it;s own success.
As soon as people realise the DART will be running on line X, Y or Z, the value of the surrounding land rises rapidly.
The new Depot will need to be central enough, so it's going to be pretty expensive to build.

Dats me wrote: »

If you look at the Irish Rail vision 2030 document it addresses most of this.

Irish rail want 4 tracks to Balbriggan and Dart Underground obviously, then you could have a spur to the Airport and run intercity trains through the tunnel to St Stephen's Green and terminate at the airport.

I know the plan you're talking about, it was launched in 2011 and the 2040 lines up with some of it. And I agree with you in that it's a good plan albeit a little ambitious.
What I do not understand is that: Given this plan(s) exists, why the hell are they giving planning permission on new Buildings between Pearse Station and Connolly Station, that are right beside the track.
The same question can be asked of that "Clasac" place on the Alfie Byrne Road. It's on it's own in the middle of no where. How did they get planning permission for that? That building will need to CPO'd to add more sidings for the DART expansion.

If you look at the Track on Google maps, 4 lines is quite possible with minimal CPO'ing from Connolly.
1) East Wall is the first obsticle, they may aswell buy 26 or so houses on the West Road so that people don't object to the wall. East wall will be gone in 20 years anyway.
2) Second is Clasac, should be easy
3) Third is Bridge over Howth Road, they'd have to CPO a few of the houses on either side.
4) Fourth problem is a few houses at the end of Grange Park Road and Belmont Park.
5) Kilbarrack Station will require a good bit of CPO'ing as there are houses built right beside the track (that should never have been built there)

The rest of the land to lay the track on is waste land, embankments or part of peoples back gardens.
If the had a steal reinforced concrete walls instead of embankments they could make maximum use of the space.

Dats me wrote: »

In the UK how does the slow down pull into the station then?

If serving all trains
Fast up_______________
[ PLATFORM ]
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________
[ PLATFORM ]
Fast down ________________

If the station isn't served by the express trains
Fast up ________________
Fast down________________
Slow up ________________
[ PLATFORM ]
Slow down ________________

I see a good few comments on this about the underground, genuinely I think it's a Pipe dream.
We already have a line between Heuston* and Connolly.
Heuston should not be the last stop.
If they sold all of the land and built a new station at the Kilmainham and used the money to expand the line between Kilmainham and Connolly and add more platforms to Connolly it would be so much more efficient and cheaper than building an underground Dart line.

SeanW

I actually think IE got this right, because about the UK example, what happens if the slow services have to continue beyond a 4 track section into a 2 track section? In that example you posted, a slow down train must cross the path of some up trains in order to go from slow down line to the general down line. With the Irish approach, the directional lines merge or split as required into fast and slow or into one general line. And having the slow lines in the middle means it's much easier to turn around. Now we just need more 4 track sections like that.

You're wrong about the DART Underground not being needed. The Phoenix Park Tunnel route is a good stopgap measure but it's not good enough. The train goes at about 20 miles an hour from the Heuston junction through the tunnel, through Cabra and onwards into the city. It's also very indirect. I remember last year I had to commute from Park West to around Pearse. 2 Liffey crossings, meandering around the Northside at very low speeds, used to take about an hour. With DART underground, that could have been cut to a fraction.

Adding capacity to Connolly would be very difficult and expensive - the station is a collection of bridges surrounded by office parks and various city centre premises.

Beta Ray Bill

SeanW wrote: »

I actually think IE got this right, because about the UK example, what happens if the slow services have to continue beyond a 4 track section into a 2 track section? In that example you posted, a slow down train must cross the path of some up trains in order to go from slow down line to the general down line. With the Irish approach, the directional lines merge or split as required into fast and slow or into one general line. And having the slow lines in the middle means it's much easier to turn around. Now we just need more 4 track sections like that.

You're wrong about the DART Underground not being needed. The Phoenix Park Tunnel route is a good stopgap measure but it's not good enough. The train goes at about 20 miles an hour from the Heuston junction through the tunnel, through Cabra and onwards into the city. It's also very indirect. I remember last year I had to commute from Park West to around Pearse. 2 Liffey crossings, meandering around the Northside at very low speeds, used to take about an hour. With DART underground, that could have been cut to a fraction.

Adding capacity to Connolly would be very difficult and expensive - the station is a collection of bridges surrounded by office parks and various city centre premises.

I disagree

Traditionally the tunnel under the park was used to move stock around.
It should be expanded to 4 lines to accommodate more trains moving at higher speed.

You could have an underground station at Dublin Zoo and another in Cabra.
Underground station in Phoenix Park would be ultra successful, it makes total sense!

The under ground line for the Dart is already serviced by the 90 bus (I think), the quays have 2 bus lanes in each side in parts now.
And it's serviced by the Luas Red line.
The cost for a train tunnel from Connolly to Heuston with train stations along the way is estimated at 4 billion. (will probably end up being around 7 billion).
It's just not worth it, when you consider few hundred million would give nearly the exact same in terms of DART transportation along the Heuston Lines and we benefit intercity users as they'd now go directly to Connolly.

In relation to Connolly, I disagree with that also.
The area around Connolly is in desperate need a revamp.
The old empty building on Preston St, Failte Ireland and their stupid massive car park that's only ever half full.
You could get another Island platform in there easily that joins up with the main line.

The old works shed need to go too, Move them somewhere else, they don't need to be in the Heart of Dublin City. They could all be turned into platforms.
You get another 5 or 6 platforms in there if they got rid of that.

end of the road

dart underground is not a simple connolly heuston train link. it is a high capacity line designed to add extra tracks to the city to increase rail capacity and serve new parts of the main city area. it by-passes the loopline bridge and it frees up capacity in heuston. the phoenix park tunnel just would not be able to offer what dart underground can offer even if it was expanded. it's good that it is open for full passenger services and it should have been decades ago but it does not get us out of the fact that dart underground is needed.
actually if the work sheds are in use then absolutely they do need to be in the heart of dublin city. they were built there for a reason, because empty running costs a lot of money and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. if they are no longer useful for current methods of maintenence and the site they stand on could not fit such a facility then that is fine, but they should not be moved elsewhere because of some idea that such works shouldn't be in the heart of a city. in the heart of the city where most trains are is absolutely the place for them. the railway and reasonable operation of it must come before some idea of how a city should look or what type of buildings it should or shouldn't have.

SeanW

grahambo wrote: »

I disagree

Traditionally the tunnel under the park was used to move stock around.
It should be expanded to 4 lines to accommodate more trains moving at higher speed.

You could have an underground station at Dublin Zoo and another in Cabra.
Underground station in Phoenix Park would be ultra successful, it makes total sense!

The under ground line for the Dart is already serviced by the 90 bus (I think), the quays have 2 bus lanes in each side in parts now.
And it's serviced by the Luas Red line.
The cost for a train tunnel from Connolly to Heuston with train stations along the way is estimated at 4 billion. (will probably end up being around 7 billion).
It's just not worth it, when you consider few hundred million would give nearly the exact same in terms of DART transportation along the Heuston Lines and we benefit intercity users as they'd now go directly to Connolly.

In relation to Connolly, I disagree with that also.
The area around Connolly is in desperate need a revamp.
The old empty building on Preston St, Failte Ireland and their stupid massive car park that's only ever half full.
You could get another Island platform in there easily that joins up with the main line.

The old works shed need to go too, Move them somewhere else, they don't need to be in the Heart of Dublin City. They could all be turned into platforms.
You get another 5 or 6 platforms in there if they got rid of that.

I suspect your error is that you are underestimating how much a DU alternative would cost to do the same thing, while overestimating the benefits of it.

The problem with the PPT is not how many trains it can accommodate, but 1) it's in the wrong place (it was originally built as a city bypass) and 2) it's slow, trains crawl through it. Rebuilding it with more tracks would cost a fortune and gain nothing.
You cannot take lots of trains from Glasnevin Junction (Sligo, Maynooth, trains from Heuston) and run them to new platforms in place of the diesel works at Connolly, because it would cause conflicting movements all over the place. That is, every North-South DART and every Glasnevin Junction-Sheds movement would be crossing each other. You would have to expand the Suburban station, adding platforms after Platform 7. That would be fun, to say the least, given there are junctions so close to the North of the Suburban station, it would involve moving the whole thing south and putting platforms over new bridges over Amiens St. At minimum, that would involve demolishing the office buillding at 110 Amiens Street, which is just across from Platform 7.
You would also have to quad track the line from the PPT through Drumcondra to East Wall Junction, as just quad tracking the PPT would gain little if anything. That would also be expensive.
You would still be taking people miles out of their way, and dumping many in Connolly where they would still have to change to overcrowded DARTs to continue, say to Pearse or GCD. Unless you also propose quad-tracking the Loop Line?
All the new trains would still be going through station throats, at Heuston to access the PPT line and again at Connolly (even with an expanded suburban station). This would necessarily be slow and would limit capacity in a variety of ways.

Best practice is not to have trains terminating in the city centre as that requires lots of turn backs and conflicting turn back movements in an expensive and congested city centre area. Instead, if you look at cities in Germany (e.g. Berlin, Munich) and what they're doing in London with Crossrail, the best designs are those that run high capacity, high speed services through the city on trunk main lines, with branches radiating off the trunk at both ends. This way you distribute the turn back movements to a wider group of less congested suburban terminals and have fewer complex movements in the centre. You also give passengers a wider variety of destinations instead of dumping them at one terminus.

DU is being proposed for the same reasons that Metro Link is a much better idea than the old Metro North.

Bray Head

Regarding Dublin-Cork, the cost of track strengthening and fixing curves would probably be far above the benefits from time savings and induced demand.

Rail is just never going to suit people with families or onward journeys from Cork.

Red Cow to Glanmire is pretty much four uncongested lanes.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Regarding Dublin-Cork, the cost of track strengthening and fixing curves would probably be far above the benefits from time savings and induced demand.

Rail is just never going to suit people with families or onward journeys from Cork.

Red Cow to Glanmire is pretty much four uncongested lanes.

Improving the Dublin/Cork line will improve journey times for all other passengers out of Heuston too.

Likelihood of the outcome of the current works over the coming years is getting standard Dublin-Cork (3 stop) journey time down to 2:15-2:20 with those with fewer stops being down to 2:00 at fastest.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

Regarding Dublin-Cork, the cost of track strengthening and fixing curves would probably be far above the benefits from time savings and induced demand.

Rail is just never going to suit people with families or onward journeys from Cork.

Red Cow to Glanmire is pretty much four uncongested lanes.

An upgraded and electrified Dublin-Cork line can offer an express journey of 90 minutes. The same car journey is 3 hours. There's no arguing with the 90 minutes saved. If the frequency is then improved to every 30 minutes, you basically have a turn up and go service with average waits of 15 mins.

Dublin Cork is already free of level crossings and the nastier curves are gone. The costs can of course be justified.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

An upgraded and electrified Dublin-Cork line can offer an express journey of 90 minutes. The same car journey is 3 hours. There's no arguing with the 90 minutes saved. If the frequency is then improved to every 30 minutes, you basically have a turn up and go service with average waits of 15 mins.

Dublin Cork is already free of level crossings and the nastier curves are gone. The costs can of course be justified.

Dublin-Cork is not free of level crossings.

blanch152

cgcsb wrote: »

An upgraded and electrified Dublin-Cork line can offer an express journey of 90 minutes. The same car journey is 3 hours. There's no arguing with the 90 minutes saved. If the frequency is then improved to every 30 minutes, you basically have a turn up and go service with average waits of 15 mins.

Dublin Cork is already free of level crossings and the nastier curves are gone. The costs can of course be justified.

It only works for Dublin City to Cork City.

If you are living in say, Rathcoole and you need to go to Ballincollig, you will be quicker by car.

cgcsb

blanch152 wrote: »

It only works for Dublin City to Cork City.

If you are living in say, Rathcoole and you need to go to Ballincollig, you will be quicker by car.

Ok, odd journeys from outer suburban villages in the most south western part of Dublin to Balincollig may be handier by car, in terms of changing mode, but certainly not in journey time under the assumption that Heuston-Kent is 90 minutes and that Cork's luas is complete by then , you're still looking at a competitive journey time, although granted the number of changes would be off putting. But of course, who cares, centre to centre journey time improvement is the first battle.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

An upgraded and electrified Dublin-Cork line can offer an express journey of 90 minutes. The same car journey is 3 hours. There's no arguing with the 90 minutes saved. If the frequency is then improved to every 30 minutes, you basically have a turn up and go service with average waits of 15 mins.

Dublin Cork is already free of level crossings and the nastier curves are gone. The costs can of course be justified.

I know of at least one level crossing in North Cork.

The car journey is less than three hours.

Of course 90 minutes could be achieved with a lot of expenditure. No one has made a case that it would save a lot in passenger minutes for the cost involved, particularly compared to suburban rail investment around Dublin.

end of the road

it's not just about saving passenger minutes as much as passenger minutes are important. it's about cutting our over-reliance on road transport which is costly and unsustainible.
upgrading especially dublin cork and dublin belfast and dealing with the suburban rail problems, and upgrading the rest of the network allows the road capacity to go a lot further for a lot longer before we have to put up more expendidure to increase it, cutting journey times and congestion for those who really realy do need to use the roads, as well as rail users.

Bray Head

Yes but what % of total passenger km driven in Ireland are between Dublin and Cork cities?

I doubt much more than 0.2%.

How sensitive are these to modal shift to rail?

90 minutes would be lovely but so would a tram line in Cork.

Dats me

Bray Head wrote: »

Yes but what % of total passenger km driven in Ireland are between Dublin and Cork cities?

I doubt much more than 0.2%.

How sensitive are these to modal shift to rail?

90 minutes would be lovely but so would a tram line in Cork.

Yeah I agree, we would all like to see billions put into all aspects of rail investment but out of 2018's 48m Iarnród Éireann journeys, 12m were intercity.

DART expansion in Dublin and then bringing 29000s to cork suburban to replace the 2600s (not sure what 2600 are like operationally but they're quite uncomfortable and I'd imagine they put people off the train) as well as Cork luas are more important.

Urban and suburban journeys that are made everyday will contribute more to modal shift and climate emissions than interurban travel. I would love to see Cork-Dublin electrified, mind.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

I know of at least one level crossing in North Cork.

The car journey is less than three hours.

Of course 90 minutes could be achieved with a lot of expenditure. No one has made a case that it would save a lot in passenger minutes for the cost involved, particularly compared to suburban rail investment around Dublin.

Obviously rail in greater Dublin needs to improve dramatically before heavy investment in intercity

no.8

Bray Head wrote:

Rail is just never going to suit people with families or onward journeys from Cork.

Apologies..I have to comment on this. That is such an incorrect statement, it's beyond believable. Where do you get such a sweeping statement from?

Bray Head

no.8 wrote: »

Apologies..I have to comment on this. That is such an incorrect statement, it's beyond believable. Where do you get such a sweeping statement from?

It's a literary technique called hyperbole.

I take your point of course.

A more precise statement would be that rail will suit childless travellers going city to city more than any other demographic.

I think intercity rail is lovely personally. But by far the greatest potential for modal shift to rail is for commuters in and around urban areas.

blanch152

cgcsb wrote: »

Ok, odd journeys from outer suburban villages in the most south western part of Dublin to Balincollig may be handier by car, in terms of changing mode, but certainly not in journey time under the assumption that Heuston-Kent is 90 minutes and that Cork's luas is complete by then , you're still looking at a competitive journey time, although granted the number of changes would be off putting. But of course, who cares, centre to centre journey time improvement is the first battle.

Odd journeys? What about from Dublin 15? Or anywhere north of Drumcondra?

Rulmeq

Bray Head wrote: »

A more precise statement would be that rail will suit childless travellers going city to city more than any other demographic.

For what it's worth, I remember more about the train journeys we took as kids, than the actual holidays (to be fair, we never went anywhere interesting :P )

Idbatterim

For intercity, could they not put a stop somewhere just outside m50. I constantly use my car as I’m based around city west, I’m not going into heuston to come all the way back out again. If I could leave the car for a day or two a ten minute ish drive, I’d gladly hop on train ...

AngryLips

Rulmeq wrote: »

For what it's worth, I remember more about the train journeys we took as kids, than the actual holidays (to be fair, we never went anywhere interesting :P )

Why don’t you alight at an earlier stop for one of the commuter services?