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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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cryptocurrency

hotmail.com wrote: »

Delaying the leave date is the only logical thing to do at this stage. The referendum didn't specify leave the date so I'm sure the British can request a delay.

The people voted to leave. May claims the deal she has is the best she could get so the only option was to present it to parliament and see if it passes, failing that she can renegotiate right up until March but the date cannot be allowed to be moved. The vote must be respected, two years is long enough if both parties acted in good faith.

Christy42

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Anthracite wrote: »

Gibberish.

You post such bilge here, it's as if you want to destroy the discussion.

I want a free trade area, I absolutely despise the union with every fabric of my being. Why can't it just be a free trade group of 28 countries with standards agreed. Free to make their own independent deals and act independently.

Because if the UK trades freely with India and the EU it then means that goods can travel freely from India to the EU and vice versa. So it is not independent. It means as soon as someone makes a deal someone else does not agree with then the entire thing collapses resulting in no free trade again.
Also those standards would have to be a part of every trade deal a country signs (as they could be transferred between EU nations easily and, as you say, standards have been agreed). The standards thing is also rule making in Brussels which a large proportion of Brexiteers seem to be against so would not solve the current issue.

At that point if a third party is going with the EU standards they are going to want a deal with the entire EU anyway so may as well do it in one.

Anthracite

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

That is pretty much straight out of page 12 of the Russian Trolling handbook

Here is a good description of some of these tactics which by now are rather obvious, especially to those of us who were on Internet from early days
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2018/625123/EPRS_BRI(2018)625123_EN.pdf

It's interesting that Irish people have proved fairly resistant to these tactics, yet still they try.

cryptocurrency

fash wrote: »

The EU is perfectly happy to trade with the UK on whatever plan the UK wants:
You can have the Bugatti Veyron for a million, the Ferrari for €500k, the Mercedes for €100k, the SUV for €50k, the VW Golf for €20k, the Lads for €10k, the second hand car for €5k, the bike for €1k - or you can walk. Each one of those options can be tweaked up or down, stripped of features or come with all the trimmings and upgrades. What you can't have is the Bugatti Veyron for 2 buttons and some belly button fluff.

Ireland however (which has a veto on any trade agreement) is unhappy about the UK f*cking Ireland over yet again - why do you hate Ireland so much?

Ireland should have been putting pressure on the EU to cut the UK some deal as we depend on the UK so much. Doubling down against our biggest partner to side with the EU is a move that the history books will record as ill-advised i suspect.

lawred2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I want a free trade area, I absolutely despise the union with every fabric of my being. Why can't it just be a free trade group of 28 countries with standards agreed. Free to make their own independent deals and act independently.

That doesn't make any sense

Anthracite

lawred2 wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense

No, it's obvious horsesh!t that a child would see through. How odd.

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Ireland should have been putting pressure on the EU to cut the UK some deal as we depend on the UK so much. Doubling down against our biggest partner to side with the EU is a move that the history books will record as ill-advised i suspect.

The deal is excellent for us.

listermint

Anthracite wrote: »

It's interesting that Irish people have proved fairly resistant to these tactics, yet still they try.

Its probably because we are so used to spoofers in this country we meet them in the pub, we meet them in the shop we meet them in the office. We put up with them with a smile but when they walk off we roll our eyes and slag them .

cryptocurrency

The UK can't remain now, can't have a second vote, can't stand aside and let the EU humiliate them. This is much bigger now, its the pride of the nation. These disconnected MPs have no idea the damage they will do to the UK if they don't complete this result and deliver the brexit. Nothing is worse than backing down, nothing.
The world is watching, the Spanish taunt about Gibraltar, the EU taunt as say the price of brexit is the break-up for the union. The world is watching and this cannot be let to happen, all options including the absolute destruction of relations with Brussels is better until the accept that the nation can be humiliated like this. I would love to see how the Japanese would react in this situation, that is a nation with pride.

hotmail.com

cryptocurrency wrote:

The people voted to leave. May claims the deal she has is the best she could get so the only option was to present it to parliament and see if it passes, failing that she can renegotiate right up until March but the date cannot be allowed to be moved. The vote must be respected, two years is long enough if both parties acted in good faith.

Surely it can't be implemented at any cost?

Another few months isn't really a big deal in the whole scheme of things.

Hurrache

He's just posting off script now, there's no coherent chain of thought, not that there ever was.

CelticRambler

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The US is a country, they all believe in it and they sure as hell won't vote to break it up. The EU is a prison, where opinions are crushed.

Sorry, mods ...

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I want a free trade area, I absolutely despise the union with every fabric of my being. Why can't it just be a free trade group of 28 countries with standards agreed. Free to make their own independent deals and act independently.

So let me get this straight: you hate the EU because [all of the above] but you think the US is pretty cool? The United States - a collection of 50 individual states (or what we would call "countries") that have 50 different sets of laws, including many which conflict with their neighbours (c.f. NI vs GB) and others that prevent people with a professional degree in one State practising in another; and they have so many different tax regimes even within individual states that retailers have to display the tax-exclusive price of their wares for simplicity (leaving the customer to do the mental arithmetic if they want to know what they're going to end up paying before they get to the till); and they're all currently living in a system where the federal government forces people to work without pay because one guy is pissed off about a vanity project ... (the same guy who tore up free trade deals, and refused to allow a hurricane-struck island to import supplies using ships from other countries because, you know: protectionism!) :pac:

Well, go on over there to the Land of the Free (I'm sure they'll let you in whether or not you have a visa); having seen it up close, I'm more than happy to finish out my days here in the EU prison instead.

cryptocurrency

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Ok lets have a mental exercise in a language you might understand (btw I used bitcoin since 2009 so your posts are highly amusing)

1. 28 countries agree that a new cryptocurrency called eurobit follows a standard (10 minute confirms, 2MB blocks, adjusting hashrate) and this standard is set in code like bitcoin

2. UK doesnt want to eurbit coin and want to keep a poundbit coin :P UK decides it doesnt like the 2MB block limit and wants an 8MB block limit similar to the dollar bit, aka it does not want to follow the agreed standard

3. How can UK trade freely in eurobits with the rest if it does not want to follow the eurobit standard it agreed to

Well, I'm sure you are retired so. It would be impossible not to have made the Irish Times rich list.

Eurbit is Dogecoin

fash

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Ireland should have been putting pressure on the EU to cut the UK some deal as we depend on the UK so much. Doubling down against our biggest partner to side with the EU is a move that the history books will record as ill-advised i suspect.

The UK (and its predecessors) have spent 900 years f*cking over Ireland - Ireland shouldn't depend on it. As regards the UK government's claim not to wish to see a hard border ( it looks suspiciously like Shylock claiming that he only wants his pound of flesh and has no wish or intention to see Antonio dead- but it just so happens that the particular pound of flesh comes from the area around the heart).

So as an Irish person, I fully support the current WA deal- and would be happy to see either the UK accept it now, or to leave without a deal, be brought to its knees and then accept it.

Edit: and if you are against Ireland's freedom to act in that way, you are against libertarianism.

Anthracite

I suggest people report the not-so-subtle elephantski in the roomski so we can get back to intelligent conversation before the next one turns up.

cryptocurrency

fash wrote: »

The UK (and its predecessors) have spent 900 years f*cking over Ireland - Ireland shouldn't depend on it. As regards the UK government's claim not to wish to see a hard border ( it looks suspiciously like Shylock claiming that he only wants his pound of flesh and has no wish or intention to see Antonio dead- but it just so happens that the particular pound of flesh comes from the area around the heart).

So as an Irish person, I fully support the current WA deal- and would be happy to see either the UK accept it now, or to leave without a deal, be brought to its knees and then accept it.

WA without the backstop.

as for being brought to its knees, by whom? The EU?

The reaction to ignoring brexit is more extreme brexiteers in number 10 who will remember their enemies and who tried to bring the nation to its knees.
EU tries that then all bets are off. UK and US be well within their right to clip these lads wings big style, maybe even bring some "freedom" their way. Shame there is no oil.

Quin_Dub

cryptocurrency will be taking a break from the forum

Thanks

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

WA without the backstop.

as for being brought to its knees, by whom? The EU?

The reaction to ignoring brexit is more extreme brexiteers in number 10 who will remember their enemies and who tried to bring the nation to its knees.
EU tries that then all bets are off. UK and US be well within their right to clip these lads wings big style, maybe even bring some "freedom" their way. Shame there is no oil.

They can't have the WA without the backstop because frankly nobody trusts the UK in the EU, including most importantly - Ireland. And with good reason. They made the bed they are now lying in.

Infini

Anthracite wrote: »

It's interesting that Irish people have proved fairly resistant to these tactics, yet still they try.

For the most part were a nation of walking bullshít detectors to be fair. These tactics don't generally work as we cop onto it pretty fast!

An Ciarraioch

Infini wrote: »

For the most part were a nation of walking bullshít detectors to be fair. These tactics don't generally work as we cop onto it pretty fast!

The Ireland Thinks poll today on important political issues showed a marked contrast with the rest of Europe - only 2% regarded immigration as most important, with the EU even lower on 0.5%:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ireland_thinks/status/1082974848467509248/photo/1

Capt'n Midnight

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The UK has had two years to sort this out. Why would the EU facilitate an extension of Art 50 to allow for the UK to have a GE?

I can see the logic in an extension for a referendum (which isn't necessary) - but not in the slightest for a GE. There should be no extension to Article 50.

Contrary to what some say the EU doesn't interfere in internal affairs.

A GE would be the UK's own business.

Besides if there was a GE then if May wins it's still Brexit while if Corbyn wins it's still Brexit but with different demands.

Seth Brundle

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The people voted to leave. May claims the deal she has is the best she could get so the only option was to present it to parliament and see if it passes, failing that she can renegotiate right up until March but the date cannot be allowed to be moved. The vote must be respected, two years is long enough if both parties acted in good faith.

1. Not all of the people voted to leave - less than a third of Uk citizens vited to leave!
2. In terms of TM renegotiating the deal, who exactly would she be renegotiating with given that the EU are not going to change what is on the table?
3. Both parties didn't act in good faith. You would see a more honest referendum campaign in Zimbabwae!

Spanish Eyes

There is arrogance and there is stupidity. I think the UK is demonstrating both right now.

If only they would actually SAY what in their minds a No Brexit scenario would mean. But no. It is an existential thing now I reckon. All for what?

kunst nugget

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Ireland Thinks poll today on important political issues showed a marked contrast with the rest of Europe - only 2% regarded immigration as most important, with the EU even lower on 0.5%:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ireland_thinks/status/1082974848467509248/photo/1

Not to sound like a dick but I do think housing and homelessness is given way too much airtime in this country. The media just keep running with it because it's such an emotive issue. Brexit and the potential fallout is a far bigger issue imo.

MrMusician18

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Ireland Thinks poll today on important political issues showed a marked contrast with the rest of Europe - only 2% regarded immigration as most important, with the EU even lower on 0.5%:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ireland_thinks/status/1082974848467509248/photo/1

In fairness all that poll shows is how the traditional media still sets the agenda here. If immigration got as much airtime and column inches here as it does in the UK it would be top of the list.

Irish people are not any smarter that those in the UK and it's extremely arrogant to think we cannot be manipulated in the same way. The poll actually showed how we have been manipulated!

RobMc59

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is arrogance and there is stupidity. I think the UK is demonstrating both right now.

If only they would actually SAY what in their minds a No Brexit scenario would mean. But no. It is an existential thing now I reckon. All for what?

One of the problems the UK voting public has which has quite rightly been pointed out by a few posters (which has certainly opened my eyes!)is the way the likes of TM and the arch brexiteers are TELLING the public what they need and not listening to what the voters who have been naive or hoodwinked(or both!)This is a marked difference to the way the voting public is treated in Ireland.
The UK political system has been exposed as totally lacking at such an important time.

10000maniacs

Tory MP Rory Stewart on Newsnight. They still don't get it.

Its going to be difficult, but they want a deal and we want a deal.... The fundamental question is how much does Europe want it and the issues around the backstop are driven largely through the Republic of Ireland, they are not issues that predominate in terms of minds in Italy and Spain, so the question is will Ireland be prepared to move if it sees the risk of a no deal as the alternative to some concession on the backstop. I believe that is possible with diplomacy and negotiation with a majority in Parliament.

kunst nugget

Infini wrote: »

For the most part were a nation of walking bullshít detectors to be fair. These tactics don't generally work as we cop onto it pretty fast!

I don't think that's true at all. We were pretty easily hoodwinked by BS during the first Lisbon referendum.

Seth Brundle

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all. We were pretty easily hoodwinked by BS during the first Lisbon referendum.

How?

prawnsambo

10000maniacs wrote: »

Tory MP Rory Stewart on Newsnight. They still don't get it.

This is why I believe they'll just walk themselves off the cliff telling each other as they fall that "we have them now, they're bound to cave before we reach the bottom".