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How appellants are treated in DR

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

When a person is banned, and a mod sends a message like this

Talked it over, no point in getting rid of you for a few months. You're not welcome here.

Why is the onus still on the banned person to engage with the moderator and follow step 1 of the process, when the moderator has made it quite clear that they are, at best, hostile to any further engagement.

It's a box ticking excercise that serves no purpose.

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Chips Lovell

As a mod, I let a lot of stuff slide.

Sometimes neither I nor my co-mods are around to deal with stuff or are just too busy.

Sometimes we want to give posters a chance to mend their ways themselves.

Sometimes it's borderline

If you want mods to action every actionable post, then it'll be a lot more work for the mods but will also result in a lot more complaints from users about "heavy handed moderation". I doubt it would be popular.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

No, I don't want that, stop being silly.

But it IS unfair for Heirarchy types to be allowed reference instances of ostensibly "bad" behaviour, that hasn't been actioned, when normal posters are told in no uncertain terms that the post being looked at, and that post only, are relevant in their appeals.

dudara

There is no standard one-size-fits-all approach to a DRP. It’s a bit of an art at times which is required to ensure that fair treatment is given. Sometimes recent posting history is relevant, sometimes it’s not. In this case, I am satisfied that the DRP was handled fairly.

Chips Lovell

Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

But it IS unfair for Heirarchy types to be allowed reference instances of ostensibly "bad" behaviour, that hasn't been actioned, when normal posters are told in no uncertain terms that the post being looked at, and that post only, are relevant in their appeals.

I don't think it is in fairness. As a mod I'd give regular reminders to users to read the forum charter. At the end of the day, they're all grown-ups and should be able to familiarise themselves with the rules and know that just because a post it isn't actioned doesn't mean it broke the rules.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

dudara wrote: »

Sometimes recent posting history is relevant, sometimes it’s not.

At no times that I've seen has a Hierarchy person allowed a user to reference their other posts in a thread as a "defence" or supporting argument in the DRP.

So the real truism here is "sometimes posting history is relevant FOR HIERARCHY TO REFERENCE and sometimes it is not, normally when it presents the appellant in a worse light".

dudara wrote: »

In this case, I am satisfied that the DRP was handled fairly.

lol, I expected nothing else tbh.

Shall I piss off now?

Insect Overlord

Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

Shall I piss off now?

You very clearly love this website and want to keep making it better. No doubt about that. But when were you happiest on here? When did posting bring you the most joy instead of frustration?

I know I've been much happier since I stopped reading Prison, Feedback and the DRP forums every day. I just read the topics I enjoy now instead of getting into arguments with people I'll never agree with. No more taking sides or fighting other people's battles or judging the worst behaviour of other members. It's a lot less stressful.

dudara

Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

At no times that I've seen has a Hierarchy person allowed a user to reference their other posts in a thread as a "defence" or supporting argument in the DRP.

So the real truism here is "sometimes posting history is relevant FOR HIERARCHY TO REFERENCE and sometimes it is not, normally when it presents the appellant in a worse light".

lol, I expected nothing else tbh.

Shall I piss off now?

I feel that I’ve been nothing but respectful to you and I’ve attempted to explain why I feel this DRP was fairly handled. But you are hellbent on your agenda, and I feel that nothing I say will get through to you or be considered. Therefore I am out. Wishing you a happy new year.

KERSPLAT!

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You very clearly love this website and want to keep making it better. No doubt about that. But when were you happiest on here? When did posting bring you the most joy instead of frustration?

I know I've been much happier since I stopped reading Prison, Feedback and the DRP forums every day. I just read the topics I enjoy now instead of getting into arguments with people I'll never agree with. No more taking sides or fighting other people's battles or judging the worst behaviour of other members. It's a lot less stressful.

This is off topic but I completely agree with avoiding sections that annoy you. It's unlikely you'll change anything and more often than not you'll end up worse off.

I dropped into Feedback yesterday, all going well for a bit and then the usual returned and I got pissed off. I shouldn't be here now!

I understand the frustration from both sides. Posters should realise that the frustration they feel is also felt by mods, even at times on the same issues.

DRP and prison can be annoying. Best to avoid unless you're actively disputing something IMO.

Steve

Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

At no times that I've seen has a Hierarchy person allowed a user to reference their other posts in a thread as a "defence" or supporting argument in the DRP.

So the real truism here is "sometimes posting history is relevant FOR HIERARCHY TO REFERENCE and sometimes it is not, normally when it presents the appellant in a worse light".

I don't believe I've ever done that in DRP (at least in recent more mature years), I try to take the mod action in isolation and evaluate it's validity. If I find it is valid then, yes, history is then taken into account.

Like our legal system, the fact that little scroate 'Damo*' was found to have robbed crisps from the same shop on 20 previous occasions doesn't make him guilty this time .... however, if he is guilty, *unlike* our legal system, he doesn't get another 100 chances.

*fictitious name

Shall I piss off now?

Can I ask you seriously why do you 'hate' this place so much? and more pertinently, why are you still here if it's so frikkin bad???

LuckyLloyd

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You very clearly love this website and want to keep making it better. No doubt about that. But when were you happiest on here? When did posting bring you the most joy instead of frustration?

I know I've been much happier since I stopped reading Prison, Feedback and the DRP forums every day. I just read the topics I enjoy now instead of getting into arguments with people I'll never agree with. No more taking sides or fighting other people's battles or judging the worst behaviour of other members. It's a lot less stressful.

If you're on the site a lot and an active contributor the reality is that you will - eventually - be impacted by the way its run. As such, it's not always possible to keep your head in the sand forever. Bot42 has always been an active contributor to the site and had opinions on how it can be improved.

In this thread he has consistently come back with concrete examples to back up the original point of the thread. I see validity to his claims in how he is responded to. Indeed, your post and this side conversation is more of that: it's not addressing the substantive aspect of what he is raising. It's focussing on him and his usage and his history.

Steve wrote: »

Can I ask you seriously why do you 'hate' this place so much? and more pertinently, why are you still here if it's so frikkin bad???

Why would you ask that? But in anycase it seems, to me at least, that the issue here is bot42 loving the place or having loved the place in the past. Asking hard questions about a place don't mean you hate it. It certainly shouldn't be assumed that is the case anyway.

Steve

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Why would you ask that?

But in anycase it seems, to me at least, that the issue here is bot42 loving the place or having loved the place in the past. Asking hard questions about a place don't mean you hate it.

It certainly shouldn't be assumed that is the case anyway.

To honestly answer that I have to do so in reverse order of how you asked.

3. I agree, it shouldn't be assumed.

2. Historically, there were lots of people here who gave lots of time and effort of make it work who are now now longer here. That includes mods smods cmods admins. If you go back to a time when the site was actually more fun despite it crashing all the time, having to access it on dial-up, and questioning an admin decision was unheard of.. The most profound thing from that was Dev's attitude and approach and prediction that boards is like a bus. Nobody ever knows or will know where it is going, nor has any one person control over that - the userbase collectively steers it.
If you don't like the turn it has taken, you are free to get off at the next stop, just don't sit there and complain about the road it is on because it is not in line with where you would like to go. That philosophy has worked for me so far, there were a few times I nearly rang the bell but held back to see what was around the next corner and so far (despite some speed bumps) am happy to stay on as a passenger.

1. Why? I hope the above explains it really. It's meant to be an enjoyable experience - as with any social media (don't forget we were around before that was even a 'term') and if 'you don't like it' then the obvious question is 'why are you still here??' It's like standing in front of a speaker at a wedding or gig and complaining that it's too loud.

pleas advice

'if you don't like it, change the station' ?
That kind of reasoning could get you banned in some forums around here...

Steve

pleas advice wrote: »

'if you don't like it, change the station' ?
That kind of reasoning could get you banned in some forums around here...

Which ones?

pleas advice

Radio, mostly

...

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

DRP and prison can be annoying. Best to avoid unless you're actively disputing something IMO.

But if theres something wrong with the system, by then its too late to try fix it

FreudianSlippers

Dispute resolution as a forum always has been and always will be a colossal waste of time/energy.

RasTa

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Dispute resolution as a forum always has been and always will be a colossal waste of time/energy.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057929464

Prime example. 2 months over a one day ban and not sure why the mod is going through "thousands" of posts

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057929464

Prime example. 2 months over a one day ban and not sure why the mod is going through "thousands" of posts

Jaysus, that's quite the example.

.......

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Jaysus, that's quite the example.

Its fairly typical though.

FreudianSlippers

Has a mod decision ever been overturned as a matter of interest? I've only ever seen things reversed where the initial mod makes that decision.

ancapailldorcha

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Has a mod decision ever been overturned as a matter of interest? I've only ever seen things reversed where the initial mod makes that decision.

It happens.

FreudianSlippers

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It happens.

I lurk DR (for #inspo) and I think it's pretty rare.

As an aside, it seems really inconsistent between forums/mods as to how far back historic cards/bans are considered when you look at the DR forum. It's like "you got banned one time 19 years ago so we're escalating from there!"

KERSPLAT!

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Has a mod decision ever been overturned as a matter of interest? I've only ever seen things reversed where the initial mod makes that decision.

I would say it's rare but I'm pretty sure I have overturned a couple. Other times a cmod might advise the mod that the card was a bit harsh/wasn't warranted (in the cmods opinion). If the mod sees their POV they might reverse themselves otherwise it'll move on with the cmods decision.

Beasty

I posted some stats last time we had a discussion on this in December 2015 when I was a CMod

Just to emphasise though, many cards get overturned before they ever get to the DRP. I reckon over 100 cards have been overturned or reduced during the past 12 months following the first step in the process - discussion with the relevant mod. (Cards are easier to track than bans, as only Admins can overturn them and we have a dedicated request thread for them)

Steve

I've overturned a few, not many. Generally the system we have means that the mods react correctly and act appropriately to the vast majority of situations.

As Beasty said, there is a lot of discussions that go on behind the scenes and most disputes are resolved there without need for DRP.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

RasTa wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057929464

Prime example. 2 months over a one day ban and not sure why the mod is going through "thousands" of posts

this just being ignored is it?

Steve

Kenzie Uneven Lettuce wrote: »

this just being ignored is it?

No, it's a non issue.

blackwhite

Steve wrote: »

No, it's a non issue.

Leaving someone hanging with no response for weeks on end is a “non issue”

Quite the attitude towards posters tbh.

From what I’ve seen of DRP lately it’s become a complete waste of everyone’s time.

The response times have become so pathetic that every appeal will be dragged out so it’ll be guaranteed that any ban has been completed and the punishment served before any decision is made. Ensure they’re punished for daring question the mod decision one way or another

Steve

blackwhite wrote: »

Leaving someone hanging with no response for weeks on end is a “non issue”

Quite the attitude towards posters tbh.

From what I’ve seen of DRP lately it’s become a complete waste of everyone’s time.

The response times have become so pathetic that every appeal will be dragged out so it’ll be guaranteed that any ban has been completed and the punishment served before any decision is made. Ensure they’re punished for daring question the mod decision one way or another

If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

Beasty

Having noted some of the comments about a current DRP thread I've had a look at that particular appeal and drawn it to a conclusion by overturning the ban given the length of time the appellant had been left waiting

I would just add though that in all my time as a CMod I don't recall a DRP being left like that for so long. It is certainly not "typical" or "fairly typical" as someone suggested above

blackwhite

Steve wrote: »

If you are unhappy, you should demand your money back. Oh wait, you did't pay anything to use this site ... maybe the cmods should be docked wages for shoddy voluntary workmanship? How would that work?

There is a working system of accountability between mods cmods admins and office staff. Sometimes an 'issue' is not worth our time and so is ignored.

Every user “contributes” to the income of the site by adding clicks that help the ad revenue - but it’s great that you feel you can display such contempt for “ordinary” users of the site.
And people wonder why there’s complaints about the attitudes of some mods on here :rolleyes:

It’s a pity that all the mods/cmods/admins don’t show the basic decency that Beasty has shown on this thread - might make the place seem a bit more welcoming to new users - you know, to help boost the revenues that you suddenly pretend to care about