Shannon Airport Thread [Mod Warning in First Post]

JCX BXC wrote: »

Explain, I used fair figures.

You didnt, you included all sorts of stuff like corporate jets, ba, kuwait, freight.

We are obviously discussing regular scheduled flights where people actually leave the airport on arrival.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Probably based on today's schedule which would have been for around 24 movements. Obviously a Tuesday in January is a below average day but it's not as crazy a number as you make it sound.

Shannon is a regional international airport covering a regional catchment of a few counties and a city in the Midwest. If anything it already receives more passengers than it should based on its transatlantic legacy and its suitability for accommodating diversions. However people need to accept that there is no scope for significant expansion of the facility or significant increase in the availability of routes. If the route you want is there, use it, if not you'll need to use another airport, most likely Dublin. That's just the way of it.

Shannon would cover Galway city in its catchment area as well at this stage, given the new motorway.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Probably based on today's schedule which would have been for around 24 movements. Obviously a Tuesday in January is a below average day but it's not as crazy a number as you make it sound.

Explain, I used fair figures.

Cosmo Kramer

JCX BXC wrote: »

Where in the name of God did you pull this figure out of? It's very inaccurate.

In September (I chose September as it's neither the peak nor the trough) there was 2,066 movements, working out at nearly 69 a day or 34.5 in/out.

Probably based on today's schedule which would have been for around 24 movements. Obviously a Tuesday in January is a below average day but it's not as crazy a number as you make it sound.

Shannon is a regional international airport covering a regional catchment of a few counties and a city in the Midwest. If anything it already receives more passengers than it should based on its transatlantic legacy and its suitability for accommodating diversions. However people need to accept that there is no scope for significant expansion of the facility or significant increase in the availability of routes. If the route you want is there, use it, if not you'll need to use another airport, most likely Dublin. That's just the way of it.

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Shannon has an average of 12 flights in/out a day. Dublin has that in about 30 minutes.

Where in the name of God did you pull this figure out of? It's very inaccurate.

In September (I chose September as it's neither the peak nor the trough) there was 2,066 movements, working out at nearly 69 a day or 34.5 in/out.

Poxyshamrock

turbbo wrote: »

By those numbers it should have a quarter of the traffic - I'm guessing it doesn't have even a 20th of the traffic. I guess that's critical mass in action.

Shannon has an average of 12 flights in/out a day. Dublin has that in about 30 minutes.

jasper100 wrote: »

Why not?

People from Limerick go to Dublin for flights. Yes I know that's partly because there are very few connections from Shannon, but if I was living in Kildare then I'd have to factor in the potential gridlock on the M50, parking costs and time to get from long term car parks to Dublin airport, queues getting throught security etc.

Its an extra 130km to Shannon, so an extra hour. By having parking closer to the terminal, having cheaper costs, shorter security times, shorter walking times to gate etc. people won't be long biting into that extra hour.

I am not saying it should happen overnight, but it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

Ah you're thinking outside the box - can't have that here on boards now.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And people living less than 50Km from DUB aren't going to travel 180K to use SNN.

Why not?

People from Limerick go to Dublin for flights. Yes I know that's partly because there are very few connections from Shannon, but if I was living in Kildare then I'd have to factor in the potential gridlock on the M50, parking costs and time to get from long term car parks to Dublin airport, queues getting throught security etc.

Its an extra 130km to Shannon, so an extra hour. By having parking closer to the terminal, having cheaper costs, shorter security times, shorter walking times to gate etc. people won't be long biting into that extra hour.

I am not saying it should happen overnight, but it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

turbbo wrote: »

BTW those numbers were population levels in airport regions not numbers using the airport - hahahaha! Do keep up.

Ehm....you said the following-

"By those numbers it should have a quarter of the traffic"

I've explained something that's been explained a thousand times before, are you trying to get a rise or something?

JCX BXC wrote: »

No no no, that's not how it works and you know that.

Even when passengers who wanted to fly to the US were forced through Shannon they didn't achieve those traffic numbers.

BTW those numbers were population levels in airport regions not numbers using the airport - hahahaha! Do keep up.

JCX BXC wrote: »

No no no, that's not how it works and you know that.

Even when passengers who wanted to fly to the US were forced through Shannon they didn't achieve those traffic numbers.

LOL!

turbbo wrote: »

By those numbers it should have a quarter of the traffic - I'm guessing it doesn't have even a 20th of the traffic. I guess that's critical mass in action.

No no no, that's not how it works and you know that.

Even when passengers who wanted to fly to the US were forced through Shannon they didn't achieve those traffic numbers.

turbbo wrote: »

I'm not convinced that it's simple economics in terms of population if the figures you quoted earlier are anything to go by (2mill Dub - 500k Shannon) - but I do agree that it's economics that's preventing airlines from running more routes out of Shannon. Shannon obviously needs to become a lot more competitive.

Not being smart, but this comes from what, your vast understanding of this market?

Dublin is the economic heart of Dublin, a primate city, the driving force in a political, business and tourist sense, with a higher GDP per capita than anywhere else in Ireland, naturally it will have a strong airport. Thanks to the airports large array of routes and frequencies, it Hoover's up passengers from all of Ireland's 4 proviences, strengthening it further, allowing it to offer more routes and frequencies, and this keeps going. Other forms of transport are also focused here, eg. Better bus services. This is known as the 'Hub'.

Dublin has 2 airlines headquartered there, and they have an interest in growing the market as much as they can. Had Dublin no national airline based or no airlines founded there, you could probably cut the passenger numbers it has at the moment in half. Aer Lingus offering connections flights inflates numbers even further.

Look abroad, let's take the Netherlands as an example. Over 17 million in population, only 2.5mil of which reside in Amsterdam's metro area. Yet look at Amsterdam Schiphol airport, 68.5million passengers in 2017, making it one of the largest airports in the world (11th) in terms of passenger numbers. All other airports in the Netherlands carry less than 10% of what Amsterdam carries.

There are so many other factors here I could discuss, but I think that's enough to get the message across. Airports are not 'simple economics', far from it. It's not as simple as saying 'advertise' or 'launch a route' as passengers don't suddenly flock to the airport when these things occur.

Sure, more could be done and I have some greviences in how the airport is run, but the management are not magicians.

Masala

turbbo wrote: »

I'm not convinced that it's simple economics in terms of population if the figures you quoted earlier are anything to go by (2mill Dub - 500k Shannon) - but I do agree that it's economics that's preventing airlines from running more routes out of Shannon. Shannon obviously needs to become a lot more competitive.

I wouldn't think that the decline in flights is down to SNN costs - in fact I would say that most airlines are on some sort of a 'start-up' incentive and so SNN costs are minimal. Flight are successful based on demand and hence fares achievable. If there is no demand...then fares will be low and airline lose money.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Or the North Cork people could use the same motorway and use their own airport in Cork. And people living less than 50Km from DUB aren't going to travel 180K to use SNN.

Look, I'd love to see SNN doing better, but unless the population density in the Midwest doubles overnight, then it's not going to suddenly get loads of new routes. It simple economics people, there aren't enough people in the Midwest to make most of these routes viable.

I'm not convinced that it's simple economics in terms of population if the figures you quoted earlier are anything to go by (2mill Dub - 500k Shannon) - but I do agree that it's economics that's preventing airlines from running more routes out of Shannon. Shannon obviously needs to become a lot more competitive.

Cookiemunster

jasper100 wrote: »

Maybe when the Cork motorway is open it will mean north Cork based people can get to Shannon much easier. The lack of congestion on motorways towards Shannon would be a huge advantage, people as far away as Portlaoise, Athlone etc. could be persuaded to go to Shannon instead of Dublin as its far less congested in the airport itself and the roads leading to it.

Even as far away as Newbridge and Kildare, to go down the M7 instead of the M50 gridlock and Dublin airport itself should encourage people west.

The M50 chaos will only ever get worse.

Or the North Cork people could use the same motorway and use their own airport in Cork. And people living less than 50Km from DUB aren't going to travel 180K to use SNN.

Look, I'd love to see SNN doing better, but unless the population density in the Midwest doubles overnight, then it's not going to suddenly get loads of new routes. It simple economics people, there aren't enough people in the Midwest to make most of these routes viable.

jasper100 wrote: »

Maybe when the Cork motorway is open it will mean north Cork based people can get to Shannon much easier. The lack of congestion on motorways towards Shannon would be a huge advantage, people as far away as Portlaoise, Athlone etc. could be persuaded to go to Shannon instead of Dublin as its far less congested in the airport itself and the roads leading to it.

Even as far away as Newbridge and Kildare, to go down the M7 instead of the M50 gridlock and Dublin airport itself should encourage people west.

The M50 chaos will only ever get worse.

It definitely has a lot of potential by the looks of it.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And it's not being forced to stay small by Dublin, it's small dues to its location on the West coast. Dublin has over 2m passenger on its doorstep. Shannon has maybe 500K.

Maybe when the Cork motorway is open it will mean north Cork based people can get to Shannon much easier. The lack of congestion on motorways towards Shannon would be a huge advantage, people as far away as Portlaoise, Athlone etc. could be persuaded to go to Shannon instead of Dublin as its far less congested in the airport itself and the roads leading to it.

Even as far away as Newbridge and Kildare, to go down the M7 instead of the M50 gridlock and Dublin airport itself should encourage people west.

The M50 chaos will only ever get worse.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And it's not being forced to stay small by Dublin, it's small dues to its location on the West coast. Dublin has over 2m passenger on its doorstep. Shannon has maybe 500K.

By those numbers it should have a quarter of the traffic - I'm guessing it doesn't have even a 20th of the traffic. I guess that's critical mass in action.

Cookiemunster

turbbo wrote: »

Very few if any US based flights from Knock - usually chartered if there are any.
Knock has a way smaller population base - 2 of Irelands larger cities in proximity to Shannon - Galway and Limerick.
The 2 airports will never compete at the same level. Knock is a small regional airport with lots of flights to the UK. Shannon should and can be a lot more than that. But it's being forced into a small regional by Dublin hoovering up all the routes. You're right in that Ryanair seems to have some sort of hatred of the place.

The issue in Shannon isn't with the T/A routes. They're are doing quite well for an airport of Shannons size. The issue is that lack of connectivity to Europe. Many European routes have come and gone and without another sweetheart deal with Ryanair they'll stay gone. It's got nothing due to hatred, simply economics. Ryanair don't do anything unless it financially beneficial to them.

And it's not being forced to stay small by Dublin, it's small dues to its location on the West coast. Dublin has over 2m passenger on its doorstep. Shannon has maybe 500K.

finbarrk

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

If only the airport had a daily flight to Birmingham! :rolleyes:

Yeah. Departing at 08.45 the morning after the match. And also the morning after the Gold Cup. Great.

Muckka

turbbo wrote: »

Very few if any US based flights from Knock - usually chartered if there are any.
Knock has a way smaller population base - 2 of Irelands larger cities in proximity to Shannon - Galway and Limerick.
The 2 airports will never compete at the same level. Knock is a small regional airport with lots of flights to the UK. Shannon should and can be a lot more than that. But it's being forced into a small regional by Dublin hoovering up all the routes. You're right in that Ryanair seems to have some sort of hatred of the place.

I think the problem with Shannon Airport is the marketing strategy.
The Shannon group as a whole has massive potential and since then they haven't had a mind as creative as Brendan O Regan.

The whole Shannon region has gone very stale, and needs a reset.

The Shannon Groups property portfolio has huge potential, and they're back on track building massive warehousing and office space.

I think the new group is in its fifth year, and hopefully it'll grow for the benifet of the Midwest....and further afield.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Why? North of Galway is as close to Knock as it is to Shannon. There's also about 40 buses a day and a motorway between Galway and Dublin, which Galway people are well used to using. The simple fact is that outside of bucket and spade routes and Poland, every European service from Shannon has been pulled. The likes of Ryanair don't want to be there outside of these routes unless they get deals that would basically screw the airport.

Very few if any US based flights from Knock - usually chartered if there are any.
Knock has a way smaller population base - 2 of Irelands larger cities in proximity to Shannon - Galway and Limerick.
The 2 airports will never compete at the same level. Knock is a small regional airport with lots of flights to the UK. Shannon should and can be a lot more than that. But it's being forced into a small regional by Dublin hoovering up all the routes. You're right in that Ryanair seems to have some sort of hatred of the place.

mdmix wrote: »

It’s very hard for Shannon or other airports to compete here. As Dublin has more capacity it also has the most cheap seats, giving it the illousion of being cheaper. Unfortunately as search engines default to search from Dublin (as well as most airline websitessites in Ireland) its pretty difficult to compare flight costs, even if you know how. It’s also unhelpful that Ryanair (shows multiple cancelled routes from Shannon) and Aer Lingus (Shannon does not show as an option on multiple screen sizes) websites are flawed. Norwegians website to be fair remember your “preferred airport”.

Shannon marketing team should really step up the recent good work they have done to get the word out on options and example prices

True, and fully agreed that these websites are completely not user friendly, however I was speaking more on the line of sites/apps like Skyscanner, who don't discriminate in the same way, and are still getting more and more popular.

It likely did improve numbers a little, however the final section of the M18 is a bit of a dud, with Kiltiernan to the Coolagh roundabout being having no time savings with the motorway, yet it's an extra 8km.

While north of the M6 is closer to Knock, Shannon does offer a wider route selection with longer opening hours for the most part, however Knock triumphs Shannon with UK connectivity (not as much as in the past, but still), and perhaps achieves a contra-flow effect.

Dublin is still the larger beast here though.

Cookiemunster

turbbo wrote: »

Yes but what about completion of the M18 which should have boosted numbers in Shannon?

Why? North of Galway is as close to Knock as it is to Shannon. There's also about 40 buses a day and a motorway between Galway and Dublin, which Galway people are well used to using. The simple fact is that outside of bucket and spade routes and Poland, every European service from Shannon has been pulled. The likes of Ryanair don't want to be there outside of these routes unless they get deals that would basically screw the airport.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Without a doubt, there period around 2009-2012 was devastating for Irish airports thanks to road projects, new bus services and recession. Such has made a recovery harder.

Yes but what about completion of the M18 which should have boosted numbers in Shannon?

mdmix

JCX BXC wrote: »

I disagree with your next point, I think as people become more tuned into checking for the cheapest price all options will be considered.

It’s very hard for Shannon or other airports to compete here. As Dublin has more capacity it also has the most cheap seats, giving it the illousion of being cheaper. Unfortunately as search engines default to search from Dublin (as well as most airline websitessites in Ireland) its pretty difficult to compare flight costs, even if you know how. It’s also unhelpful that Ryanair (shows multiple cancelled routes from Shannon) and Aer Lingus (Shannon does not show as an option on multiple screen sizes) websites are flawed. Norwegians website to be fair remember your “preferred airport”.

Shannon marketing team should really step up the recent good work they have done to get the word out on options and example prices