DART+ (DART Expansion)

When IÉ eletrify the line to Hazelhatch will any darts run into heuston.
I assume portlaiose commuter trains will then be sped up and their first stop will be hazelhath instead of park west.
Will they only eletrify the slow lines or will the eletrify the fast line as far as hazelhatch.
Finally on the quad track section today why did irish rail decide to have the 2 fast lines far away from eachother unlike the West coast mainline in britian where the 2 fast tracks and 2 slow tracks are side by side
Eg ireland
Fast up_______________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________
Fast down ________________

Britian
Fast up ________________
Fast down________________
Slow up ________________
Slow down ________________

AngryLips

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

Just call it Conyngham Road station and be done with.

lateconnection

grahambo wrote: »

The sidings at Clontarf depot are full at night, there is no more room for additional trains, there is also no space to expand the depot. So that to will need to be moved at some point very soon (Or an additional depot built), if there is to be expansion of the DART.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the depot situation once the DART Expansion Programme is complete.

Fairview is small, constrained and also cannot do any heavy overhaul work on DART units, they have to go to Inchicore or Drogheda. This of course means that a DART unit is out of service longer due to the transfer times to Drogheda/ Inchicore. In addition, a locomotive or a 29000 class unit has to be sourced to move the DART.

There is no wheel lathe in Fairview either, which does not help matters.

The Drogheda Depot is a good maintenance facility, and I could see this being converted to a DART Depot. But I think it is more of a maintenance depot rather than a stabling facility, the facility can only hold around 12-14 full 8-car trains, which is around the same size as Fairview. This could be a problem. Significant shunting is also required in Drogheda Depot.

Any new DART Depots will need a lot of stabling space for potentially 20+ trains.

Any new DART Depots should be entirely self-sufficient and should not be reliant on Inchicore.

I would say that there will be a new depot on the Maynooth Line somewhere, and another one out near Hazelhatch.

As for the Northern Line, I think Fairview should be relocated. The depot shed is an obstacle to any future four-tracking of the line. Perhaps a new depot on a greenfield site in North Dublin might be a good idea....

The newer sidings on the Alfie Byrne Road side could stay though, and could be expanded further with some CPOing…

Irish Rail will also lose their stabling yard at Connolly due to redevelopment in the next few years. This is currently a key stabling point for commuter trains.

When Dart Underground and the electrification to Maynooth and Drogheda were originally being planned, were any sites for depots identified?

If you look at the Irish Rail vision 2030 document it addresses most of this.

Irish rail want 4 tracks to Balbriggan and Dart Underground obviously, then you could have a spur to the Airport and run intercity trains through the tunnel to St Stephen's Green and terminate at the airport.

A really lovely plan but sure look, Varadkar wants a €3bn income tax cut instead. Obviously it all can be done but as you said if buses can do it, and we've spent the money on the motorways already, it's hard to justify billions on intercity rail as much as I'd love it.

Beta Ray Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

I find it interesting that people talk about Electrification of national routes, yet ignoring the fact that with the exception of the Dublin <-> Cork and Dublin <-> Belfast routes, all the other lines are single track.
So it doesn't matter if they are faster, you cant run the trains regular enough.

And even at that, from Grand Canal Dock to Howth Junction (Some could argue Malahide) the line is very congested. Express trains such as the Enterprise need to slow down when they get as far as Malahide during rush hour as their is a DART every 10 mins (which I'll come back to in a minute).
The Bus from Dublin to Belfast is faster than the train
I've said before that they need to add more track between G.C.D and H.J (new signalling system isn't enough), they need at least 1 additional line, ideally 2 additional lines
It should have been done years ago before An Bord Pleanala gave planning permission for buildings that are less than 15 ft away from the track.
I was told I was mad when I suggested that on this thread about 6 months ago, but it's obviously not that mad as BusConnect are taking parts of peoples front gardens for Bus Lanes.

The there's the issue with Cork Train... Goes to Heuston, which is a 34 min walk to Dublin City Centre and the major financial districts. (Luas Red line.... No Thanks...)

We've no train station and Dublin Airport or Dublin Port
Dublin Airport has (had) a train station built AFAIK but no track going out to it
Dublin Port has track nearly the whole way out to the ferry terminal but no Train station

The other thing that REALLY bugs me about the 10 min trains is that a lot of them are only 6 cars long.
They don't have enough rolling stock to service 8 car Darts at 10 min intervals during rush hour.
The sidings at Clontarf depot are full at night, there is no more room for additional trains, there is also no space to expand the depot. So that to will need to be moved at some point very soon (Or an additional depot built), if there is to be expansion of the DART.
I guarantee No minister has thought of this, they just think they can buy a few extra trains, hire a few drivers and run electric cable out to the likes of Leixlip and Dunboyne.

Irish rail need to get the basics right before they can justify the huge cost of electrifying the national rail network (But that's just my opinion)
Like I agree that it DEFINITELY should be done, but there is other low hanging fruit that could achieve huge benefits, that they could do right now.
With Brexit on the cards, Train station and Dublin Port is a must.

I fully accept trains are far more comfortable than a Bus and I'd much rather take train, but the buses go into the city Centre.

tubbs26

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

Hueston West station came from one of the maps on Metrolink consultation plan
https://www.metrolink.ie/#/public-consultation

See page 22. Its looks like an P10 in Heuston

Lord Glentoran

tubbs26 wrote: »

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

You make perfect sense. “Heuston West” presumably an expansion of Platform 10?

BonnieSituation

thebsharp wrote: »

A big part of the issue with running trains at those speeds is the need for track strengthing and existing track curvature. Some parts of the route have bends that can't be removed because of the topography and sensitive land issues. They'll try and get the average speed up as much as possible I'd say but can't imagine it's top of anyone's agenda with DART Expansion, CMATS, Metrolink and Busconnects all in the melting pot. I know what the synic in me says about all of those getting delivered unfortunately.

And with that in mind there's always the idea that you could run the route better than the sham that we have now between the 2 cities.

If you're gonna try and get speeds to that sort of level there's little advantage running it on a Victorian route given the amount of remedial work required.

Dats me wrote: »

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

I responded to this but quoted cgcsb by mistake. Earlier this year the NTA/Irish Rail had targeted 2027 for completion of the electrification, but they also wanted to increase train capacity irrespective of this. From keeping tabs on NTA/Irish Rail announcements and tenders there must be at least 10 different DART studies ongoing that are all somewhat interdependent.

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

A big part of the issue with running trains at those speeds is the need for track strengthing and existing track curvature. Some parts of the route have bends that can't be removed because of the topography and sensitive land issues. They'll try and get the average speed up as much as possible I'd say but can't imagine it's top of anyone's agenda with DART Expansion, CMATS, Metrolink and Busconnects all in the melting pot. I know what the synic in me says about all of those getting delivered unfortunately.

cgcsb wrote: »

I would say that the systems have to be inter-operable, even if the GDA electrification is done a long time before inter-city it doesn't make sense to have parallel systems.

Also I'd envisage a simplification of commuter rail into Simply DART branded services. So say for arguments sake Maynooth-Docklands operates every 15 minutes but every third service operates all the way to Mullingar, with the outer part of that journey done under diesel power.

The need for broader plan is exactly why they haven't commenced. There was an electrification plan around 2011 but it relied on DART Underground which created two segregated corridors. The network is now more complex and needs interoperability between the various lines. The costs involved are pretty huge. A standard EMU rolling stock unit costs about €2m and a Battery EMU can be plus 30-40%. Ideally only one electrification system will be in place. A.C. would allow better integration for the future intercity network and is cheaper to build and operate. However, we've 50km of existing DC that works perfectly fine for the GDA that we'd have to convert. There's no easy solution

cgcsb

Dats me wrote: »

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

I would say that the systems have to be inter-operable, even if the GDA electrification is done a long time before inter-city it doesn't make sense to have parallel systems.

Also I'd envisage a simplification of commuter rail into Simply DART branded services. So say for arguments sake Maynooth-Docklands operates every 15 minutes but every third service operates all the way to Mullingar, with the outer part of that journey done under diesel power.

cgcsb

Ireland trains wrote: »

In maby 10 years time (or more cause its irish rail) the intercity services should be somthing like this (in my opinion)

Dublin to:
Cork 1 tph (all mk4) average 2h, 15m
Express-1 ex Cork, 1 ex Dub - 2h
Possibly a second train every 2 hours (fast

Galway
1 tph (4-6 icr) average 1h, 55
Express ex Galway, morning - 1h, 45

Waterford
1 tp2h (5-7 icr) average 1h, 45
Express ex waterford, morning - 1h, 30
Posssibly build a kilkenny parkway station on the loop

Belfast
1 tph + 1tp2h (new fleet) average 1h, 45
Express ex bel (mor), ex dub 1h, 30

Dublin to Sligo, rosslare, tralee, westport, limerick - 1tp2h

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

tubbs26 wrote: »

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

I would agree with that certainly, particularly if you could get DARTs every 10 minutes from Hazelhatch.

tubbs26

riddlinrussell wrote: »

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

Idbatterim

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

battery technology is improving so quick and dropping in price so quick per kwh, that surely on the timeline we are discussing here, it will be possible to have pure electric power? i.e. battery for the sections with no overhead wires?

In maby 10 years time (or more cause its irish rail) the intercity services should be somthing like this (in my opinion)

Dublin to:
Cork 1 tph (all mk4) average 2h, 15m
Express-1 ex Cork, 1 ex Dub - 2h
Possibly a second train every 2 hours (fast

Galway
1 tph (4-6 icr) average 1h, 55
Express ex Galway, morning - 1h, 45

Waterford
1 tp2h (5-7 icr) average 1h, 45
Express ex waterford, morning - 1h, 30
Posssibly build a kilkenny parkway station on the loop

Belfast
1 tph + 1tp2h (new fleet) average 1h, 45
Express ex bel (mor), ex dub 1h, 30

Dublin to Sligo, rosslare, tralee, westport, limerick - 1tp2h

riddlinrussell

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

cgcsb

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

loyatemu

Ireland trains wrote: »

I suppose the first intercity line to electrify would be Dublin to Belfast because the line would allready be eletric to drogheda.
Then Cork would be second as it is the premier line and would mean that further eletrification (eg Galway/Limerick) would be already half done.
Will irish rail ever eletrify cork suburban services.

if they were electrify long distance lines, I don't think they'd use the Dart 1500V system.

I suppose the first intercity line to electrify would be Dublin to Belfast because the line would allready be eletric to drogheda.
Then Cork would be second as it is the premier line and would mean that further eletrification (eg Galway/Limerick) would be already half done.
Will irish rail ever eletrify cork suburban services.

prunudo

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The plans for the Liffey bridge are now put on hold because of impact on DU.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924

Apologises, that was actually the article I meant to link to earlier, I messed up the links.

Is intercity electrification why they're not electrifying the new DART lines before buying the new rolling stock?

Iarnród Éireann's 2030 vision document said electrification is only €500k/km which seems super cheap to not be doing right now, but do they want to do AC intercity (including the DART lines) electrification so they're waiting until the 22000 need to be replaced?

dublinman1990

The plans for the Liffey bridge are now put on hold because of impact on DU.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924

There is room in PPT for electrification or so I've been advised on several occasions.

It's proposed to go from Hazelhatch to Connolly at first but ultimately electrification is intended to extend to Sallins and further again. it's whether this happens as part of intercity electrification to Cork, or further DART expansion. The type of electrification chosen will partly determine this.

Raising and lower the pantograph is common, particularly around Paris where they have two electrification systems in place, 25kv ac and 1500 v dc. However, it is heavy on the OHLE so is not ideal for maintenance reasons.

To Drogheda will be called DART

prunudo

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/office-plan-scrapped-to-facilitate-shelved-dart-underground-1.3519360%3fmode=amp

Saw this yesterday, thought it may be of interest. Its good to see that they're keeping the site from development even though the project isn't on the radar yet.