Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

eviltwin wrote:

but why do you assume not wanting to continue with a pregnancy is indicative of a mental health issue when continuing with the pregnancy isn't

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

eagle eye wrote: »

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

Sorry but that’s so patronising. Women don’t need to be saved from themselves.
Of course a service should be available to those who require it but there is no reason for it to be compulsory.
Many women can and do confidently and comfortably make this choice and it’s very condescending to presume ALL women need professional help when it comes to scenarios like these - They don’t.

SusieBlue wrote:

Sorry but thatâ€™s so patronising. Women donâ€™t need to be saved from themselves. Of course a service should be available to those who require it but there is no reason for it to be compulsory. Many women can and do confidently and comfortably make this choice and itâ€™s very condescending to presume ALL women need professional help when it comes to scenarios like these - They donâ€™t.

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

eagle eye wrote: »

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

And how does preventing all women from having an abortion do that exactly?

It's like saying take a knife away from someone intent on self harming. It's not really addressing the underlying issue is it?

LorelaiG

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

Counselling is available beforehand if a woman so chooses. It's not mandatory and it shouldn't be.

eviltwin wrote:

And how does preventing all women from having an abortion do that exactly?

Wtf?

LorelaiG wrote:

Counselling is available beforehand if a woman so chooses. It's not mandatory and it shouldn't be.

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

Wtf?

You want women to prove why they deserve to have the right to have an abortion...You also women as mentally unfit to make such a decision without psychiatric evaluation.... But you're the one saying 'wtf?'? :rolleyes:

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

And I imagine a woman who really doesn't want to go through counselling for whatever reason, will find a way to end the pregnancy without going through the system. So there you go, back to endangering women.

Igotadose

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

It's nigh unto impossible to follow your point, if you have one. Exactly who, are we protecting, from what? What is your thesis, and your proposed solution, in a couple sentences please?

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

By having their doctor OFFER counseling services during their consultation services?
It really isn’t hard to follow at all.

An optional service for those who want to avail of it, and no delay for those who are sure of their decision. Win win.

eagle eye wrote: »

Wtf?

It's not that difficult. If you simply ban abortion for certain women all those issues making the woman seek abortion in the first place are still there. How is she being helped address those issues?

It's apparent you've put no thought into this. You're just another person pretending to care about vulnerable people when it's apparent you just have issues with abortion. At least be honest about it.

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

Do people respond well usually to forced intervention? Statistically they don’t.
They have to want the help for it to be of any benefit to them.

You sound like you’re just making this up as you go along and honestly it’s baffling that none of this occurred to you before May 25th.

amcalester

First it was because the women were irresponsible and now it’s because they’re depressed.

Hmmm.

Wrongway1985

First point was it was felt getting rid of 8th was the key decision to vote Yes but claims people including the poster were duped into voting as if it was known by them new text was entering the constitution the vote would have been closer and they wouldn't have voted Yes themselves.

I'm not quite sure why the poster has been impacted by that but here we are led back to forced pregnancies,mental health and sex evaluation panels.

For the irresponsible there was only consequences for the woman.

eagle eye wrote: »

As long as you are not throwing me in with the no campaigners that's fine.
If you are then I'll just assume you are uneducated and cannot read properly.

Unfortunately you'll find the no campaigners are throwing themselves in with you

Wrongway1985 wrote:

First point was it was felt getting rid of 8th was the key decision to vote Yes but claims people including the poster were duped into voting as if it was known by them new text was entering the constitution the vote would have been closer and they wouldn't have voted Yes themselves.

Well you have it wrong, I never said that I'd change the way I voted.
The old law had to go. Women are entitled to abortion.

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you have it wrong, I never said that I'd change the way I voted.
The old law had to go. Women are entitled to abortion.

But only for the reasons you deem acceptable and happen to agree with.

Wrongway1985 wrote:

Unfortunately you'll find the no campaigners are throwing themselves in with you

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.
I was out one day, I was at a fair. It was a day out for kids. I met the yes campaigners and told them that I'd be voting yes but that I was very unhappy to see them set up at a kids event because kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff imo. Now they didn't agree with me at first but they had a chat amongst themselves and packed up and moved on. So we go around the area and then head for a public park which was adjacent to and part of the fair. I meet the no campaigners and start telling them they shouldn't be doing this in front of kids. I got told to **** off and my reaction to that was verbally abusive after my wife and child went on ahead of me. They got an offer of a shot at the title as well. So I don't think they'd take my side no matter what. And they are well aware that I was firmly pro a woman's right to choose.
The unfortunate thing about this is that I'm a very fair person but I realise that people need to be protected from themselves. I'm involved in helping people with depression. I suffered from it severely myself at one time in my life. I educated myself about it, battled it then got help and fully recovered.
I'd have a good insight from my own personal experience of how bad things can get. I've already told you about a woman who deeply regrets having an abortion and feels she wasn't in the right place mentally to make the decision.
It's hard for some people to understand be this stuff because they don't understand what it's like to be in a situation where you have other things going on in your head that are part of an illness. Women with depression suffering with intrusive thoughts could have their conscience telling them they are not worthy of being a motherbor that the whole pregnancy will be a huge embarrassment or other stuff. Those people are not in the right place to make a decision on whether to keep or get rid of a baby. In a lot of cases they won't tell anybody about their depression because they have this voice in their head telling them to keep quiet and not embarrass themselves.

[Deleted User]

Eagle Eye I do know where you are coming from. I am completely pro choice but like most yes voters I am also pro LIFE. None of us wants abortion to be the answer but sometimes it is. No woman should have to justify her reasons for wanting an abortion; which unfortunately you have suggested several times now I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you have. So you understand why you are being questioned a lot I hope.

Deleted User wrote:

Eagle Eye I do know where you are coming from. I am completely pro choice but like most yes voters I am also pro LIFE. None of us wants abortion to be the answer but sometimes it is. No woman should have to justify her reasons for wanting an abortion; which unfortunately you have suggested several times now I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you have. So you understand why you are being questioned a lot I hope.

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

And punish those who you view as irresponsible.

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.
I was out one day, I was at a fair. It was a day out for kids. I met the yes campaigners and told them that I'd be voting yes but that I was very unhappy to see them set up at a kids event because kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff imo. Now they didn't agree with me at first but they had a chat amongst themselves and packed up and moved on. So we go around the area and then head for a public park which was adjacent to and part of the fair. I meet the no campaigners and start telling them they shouldn't be doing this in front of kids. I got told to **** off and my reaction to that was verbally abusive after my wife and child went on ahead of me. They got an offer of a shot at the title as well. So I don't think they'd take my side no matter what. And they are well aware that I was firmly pro a woman's right to choose.
The unfortunate thing about this is that I'm a very fair person but I realise that people need to be protected from themselves. I'm involved in helping people with depression. I suffered from it severely myself at one time in my life. I educated myself about it, battled it then got help and fully recovered.
I'd have a good insight from my own personal experience of how bad things can get. I've already told you about a woman who deeply regrets having an abortion and feels she wasn't in the right place mentally to make the decision.
It's hard for some people to understand be this stuff because they don't understand what it's like to be in a situation where you have other things going on in your head that are part of an illness. Women with depression suffering with intrusive thoughts could have their conscience telling them they are not worthy of being a motherbor that the whole pregnancy will be a huge embarrassment or other stuff. Those people are not in the right place to make a decision on whether to keep or get rid of a baby. In a lot of cases they won't tell anybody about their depression because they have this voice in their head telling them to keep quiet and not embarrass themselves.

You are projecting your own life experience onto others.
That post was all about you and your experiences and very little to do with women whose circumstances you will never know or understand.

I’m sure you are a fair person and everything else you have said but your experience is yours alone and isnt justification for interfering in other people’s situations.

I too have suffered with mental health and I’m sure you can agree that forcing ‘help’ and counseling on those who do not want it is actually counter productive and actually ends up doing more damage than good.

If we applied your logic to other situations we would have no drug addicts or alcoholics because we could force them all into mandatory rehabilitation and they’d be cured - it doesn’t work like that.

I don’t doubt the woman you know regretted her choice but I can prove to you with an independent study that 97% of Irish women did not regret their choice.
This indicates that mandatory counseling is neither necessary nor desired by the women themselves.

Women do not need to be saved from themselves by you.
It’s extremely patronising, condescending and almost offensive that you keep insisting otherwise.

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

by making it virtually impossible for them to access abortion. that makes sense :rolleyes:

gandalf

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

But how are you protecting someone if you force them to carry a child that they may not want? I understand your motives but I feel they are skewed.

[Deleted User]

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

Brick wall.

I don't even have to do this anymore (2018 burnout anyone else?). I'm surprised I even engaged you TBH since I lay down on the 26th of May last year and could finally breathe again .

I'm not hating on you, I just recognise there is no getting through. I admire your diligence but could maybe do with stepping away from the thread.

I know I am going to now. The hours iput in online and streets and door to door paid off, and honestly I am still tired.

volchitsa

Deleted User wrote: »

Brick wall.

I don't even have to do this anymore (2018 burnout anyone else?). I'm surprised I even engaged you TBH since I lay down on the 26th of May last year and could finally breathe again .

I'm not hating on you, I just recognise there is no getting through. I admire your diligence but could maybe do with stepping away from the thread.

I know I am going to now. The hours iput in online and streets and door to door paid off, and honestly I am still tired.

This, totally. We don't need to do it any more, but old habits die hard!

But the relief, every time I find myself in one of those pointless to and fros, when suddenly I think "I don't care that this person is probably lying, the referendum is over and we flipping won! I can just drop it now and we will still have won!" And yeah, being able to breathe. That's exactly it.

Wrongway1985

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.

I was referring to on boards at least, you've been thanked by them

volchitsa

You really seem determined to make this all about you. I have no idea why.

Perhaps you have no idea just how fking hard it has been to be called baby killers and worse on various sites (boards is pretty well moderated compared to Twitter or even politics.ie) or just to have to repeat over and over that nom I don't want lots of abortions to happen, I just recognise that they do, - and to have had to respond carefully without telling them to fck off.

So no, I wasn't thinking about you, and I wasn't referring to you, it was a general comment about the feeling of now being able to breathe, because we don't have to do it all again and because women in Ireland no longer risk being put in a fking mental hospital for asking for an abortion.

But hey, yeah, make it all about you. :rolleyes:

That's a pretty extreme response to feeling your being outed as a liar.

Maybe you can use that self awareness to imagine how women feel being told we need a psych evaluation before having agency over our own bodies.......

volchitsa

You know what eagle eye (and this time I am talking to you, and about you) I was a bit stunned by your hostile reaction twice in a row now, when I thought I replied perfectly civilly to you, so I read back over your posts, and what comes through is really a huge amount of personal projection of your issues onto everyone else.

You think people are calling you names when they're making general comments, you think because you had mental health issues that all women have to be protected from making "wrong" decisions (by forcing them to remain pregnant, which for sure is going to fix their mental health issues) and so on and so forth.

I really would suggest you look at your own issues first. I'm sure you'll take that as badly as my previous comments which only very tangentially related to anything you had said, but this time it's my considered opinion, so I don't mind in the least if it annoys you. At least you'll have a reason for it! :rolleyes: