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Toyota Rav 4 hybrid

Mach Two

What is the consensus with the Rav 4. I am thinking of changing next year. Do I go for the diesel or a petrol hybrid. 2 WD or AWD.

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Mach Two

CramCycle wrote: »

City or motorway driving, because if it's the latter it's a joke. My 99 Saab was getting under 5l/100km nearly 20 years ago.

Can't say. I never asked for specifics. Would that be with the electric miles or without?

CramCycle

City or motorway driving, because if it's the latter it's a joke. My 99 Saab was getting under 5l/100km nearly 20 years ago.

Mach Two

Just after test driving the new Rav 4. Hybrid. Fully automatic. Salesman says 5l to 100 km. I was hoping that the radar would stop you in a traffic jam. But apparently it won't work under a certain speed.

CramCycle

If this is all true my next car could be the last car I buy before retirement, bar crashes or spare parts becoming unfindable.

Shefwedfan

CramCycle wrote: »

True but does the distance covered per charge not lower over time? Second, for some, not all, if the car is still grand, a new battery might be fine for some users rather than replacement.

This was related to the distance per charge, which I could be wrong about but the new bigger batteries and newer cars far exceed what I need, so even with reductions in distance per charge Id get a helluva long time. At the minute a newer Kona would only come down to 50% on my longest trip.

I don't have an EV though so could be talking rubbish.

You are talking about battery degradation. As mentioned above disregard the Leaf and every other electric car is seeing minimal degradation. The only case I have for eGolf was in US and after 80k km's they had no degradtion. The US is harder on battery than ireland due to cold/hot climate

With larger batteries you won't need to charge fully everyday to get to your distance. So you can set to charge to a max 80% this will help preserve the battery even better.

Standard home charging has no affect on battery. Based on some initial reports they say fast charger can affect the battery but this is yet to be fully proven. The standard user who has a home charger will maybe use fast charging 10-20 times max a year which again will not have an affect.

They are talking about fast charging for a london taxi which could be doing 2-3 fast chargers per day

Battery degradation is blown up a bit too much....Ok the first leaf had some issues but my mother has one and no problem. People look at their 1 year old iPhone and see the battery is at 86% and think the same can happen with a car. They are different batteries and also a few cells on a phone will knock a lot of percent out, a few cells on a cars won't even touch it. Most companies are padding their batteries as well.

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

The second generation 24kWh batteries are seeing nothing resembling "terrible" degradation, from what I've heard. The early ones and 30kWh have not been so great, though. But even then, 2011 Leafs are still on the road and are totally usable, albeit with reduced battery capacity (maybe around 70% now?).

The 24kWh second gen ones were much better (i had one and sold it on at ~110k!)
But they were much better than a very low floor (the first gen leaf) and were not as good as competition offerings.

The second gen 24kWh still shows a lot of degradation and a lot of owners on facebook are losing bars now. In other EVs from the era other owners are at 98% (eg the irish youtube guy with a Zoe)

zilog_jones

ELM327 wrote: »

Ignore the nissan leaf, it's the only EV without active cooling and the battery suffers terrible degradation as a result.

The second generation 24kWh batteries are seeing nothing resembling "terrible" degradation, from what I've heard. The early ones and 30kWh have not been so great, though. But even then, 2011 Leafs are still on the road and are totally usable, albeit with reduced battery capacity (maybe around 70% now?).

ELM327

CramCycle wrote: »

True but does the distance covered per charge not lower over time? Second, for some, not all, if the car is still grand, a new battery might be fine for some users rather than replacement.
This was related to the distance per charge, which I could be wrong about but the new bigger batteries and newer cars far exceed what I need, so even with reductions in distance per charge Id get a helluva long time. At the minute a newer Kona would only come down to 50% on my longest trip.

I don't have an EV though so could be talking rubbish.

Ignore the nissan leaf, it's the only EV without active cooling and the battery suffers terrible degradation as a result.
Other EVs are much better, even the Zoes from 2013/14 onwards are still around with 1-2% degradation after 100k km+.

More modern EV like Ioniq, i3, Teslas etc have active cooling and will not suffer the same degradation as the leaf. Newer EVs again like Kona, ENiro and probably the new VW MEB EVs too have liquid cooling meaning they will not suffer much degradation at all.

CramCycle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So the first “I presume” is in regards battery and the battery should last the life of car....people have done nearly 200k in Nissan Leaf...

True but does the distance covered per charge not lower over time? Second, for some, not all, if the car is still grand, a new battery might be fine for some users rather than replacement.

Second “I presume” I have no idea what the presumption is

This was related to the distance per charge, which I could be wrong about but the new bigger batteries and newer cars far exceed what I need, so even with reductions in distance per charge Id get a helluva long time. At the minute a newer Kona would only come down to 50% on my longest trip.

I don't have an EV though so could be talking rubbish.

Shefwedfan

CramCycle wrote: »

I presume over the above, battery replacement if you go long term, other than that no different than a regular car. I presume that will be a longer time to change compared to the current batteries released a few years ago.

So the first “I presume” is in regards battery and the battery should last the life of car....people have done nearly 200k in Nissan Leaf....

Second “I presume” I have no idea what the presumption is

CramCycle

I presume over the above, battery replacement if you go long term, other than that no different than a regular car. I presume that will be a longer time to change compared to the current batteries released a few years ago.

Shefwedfan

Mach Two wrote: »

What maintenance is there on an electric vehicle i.e. servicing etc.

I get mine serviced yearly. Well last year they sent me video showing nothing wrong. Done some firmware updates and changed the brake oil....for no reason really....think it was 140 or so

This year, rang and I have to get "the big service" according to lady on phone. 300 quid....told her it was electric....120 :P...

Mach Two

What maintenance is there on an electric vehicle i.e. servicing etc.

Mach Two

Mach Two wrote: »

Going back on threads they are saying,
€3.60/100 km electric,
€5.00/100 km diesel.

That was a few years back. Things have changed since.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

If you are charging on night rate its closer to €1.00/100km maybe €1.10.

That's key

Mike9832

Mach Two wrote: »

Going back on threads they are saying,
€3.60/100 km electric,
€5.00/100 km diesel.

No diesel does €5.00/100km

If we take motorway driving a normal EV uses 20kWh/100km at 120km/h

At average price of 15c/kWh ( no night rate ) it's 15x20 = €3.00/100km on the motorway

A diesel would be going very well to use 5 liters/100km at 120km/h

At average price of €1.30 a liter x 5 liters = €6.50

Savings are still substantial but if your spending €40 a week on diesel/petrol its no big deal

ewj1978

I'm paying 14c a kwh. lets say thats a leaf so 16kw/100km = €2.24.

liamog

Mach Two wrote: »

Going back on threads they are saying,
€3.60/100 km electric,
€5.00/100 km diesel.

If you are charging on night rate its closer to €1.00/100km maybe €1.10.

Shefwedfan

Mach Two wrote: »

Going back on threads they are saying,
€3.60/100 km electric,
€5.00/100 km diesel.

3.60? you buy Gold electricity

Sorry I meant premium electricity

Mach Two

ELM327 wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?

Generally accepted consensus is that EV driving is approximately 10% of the cost of driving a petrol on a pure fuel basis (ie only looking at fuel costs, not tax/depreciation/maintenance etc).
So if you're paying currently 20c/km you could expect ~2c/km in an EV, but there really is no one size fits all answer.

Going back on threads they are saying,
€3.60/100 km electric,
€5.00/100 km diesel.

Shefwedfan

The Kona will be too small. It is small compared to the RAV4. Better off holding off till the Kia eNiro comes out. It is not as big as the RAV but not as small as the Kona.

Might be able to swing it.

After that not really many crossover coming out. Audi have a "cheaper" Crossover but still expect to be 50k+....The next one would be VW Crozz which I would suggest if early release then end of 2020 but in reality 2021...I did see mention of a Leaf Crossover in 2020 but I doubt it. If they get the Leaf 60kWh out early this year then maybe but everything about Nissan suggests disaster

Of course if you still to cars other options available.

In terms of the RAV, it is beautiful. The ltr/100km will be a lot better on the new one. The engine was too small in old one. But you will still be at 4-5ltr/100km so the saving would be minimal compared to a BEV

CramCycle

Mach Two wrote: »

What is the cost of petrol per km compared to electric per km.

If I had one with suitable range, as in a once or twice a week charge from home, the cost would be practically zero thanks to the solar panels but even on full price of the grid, talking to a friend who works for a motor sales company (and in no way benefits form pushing EV at the minute), he estimated 20/25quid for 450km vs a range of 50 to 150euro for the same depending on traffic and fuel costs, car type etc. These were all out of his ass but considering he would be biased in favour of getting his stock out the door, and he was presuming home charge at full whack, that is probably conservative.

On other costs, my tax would be 1/6 the price which alone considering driving done would cover six months of driving alone if paying full whack for home charging. This then means that for me, to compare you could skew those numbers again so the ratio would be closer to 1/10. Considering I have the solar panels, it would be basically free driving for 9 months of the year for a decent range vehicle.

So for me driving cost, motor tax and about half my insurance would be cheaper than the tax alone for the current family car.

It really is a no brainer as a back of the envelope estimate for me would be a running cost saving of 3000euro a year. At current market rates that means I can replace the battery and still save 15000 every 7 years.

*all numbers made up but I would appreciate if more knowledgeable people could let me know how far out of line I am

ELM327

Mach Two wrote: »

What is the cost of petrol per km compared to electric per km.

How long is a piece of string?

Generally accepted consensus is that EV driving is approximately 10% of the cost of driving a petrol on a pure fuel basis (ie only looking at fuel costs, not tax/depreciation/maintenance etc).
So if you're paying currently 20c/km you could expect ~2c/km in an EV, but there really is no one size fits all answer.

Mach Two

What is the cost of petrol per km compared to electric per km.

CramCycle

ELM327 wrote: »

Have you considered the Kona EV ? It is exactly that "Similar in distance to the IPace - actually it's better - but at half the price"

Actually looking at it. We are a one car family and while I am the practical one, the other parts of the family are not sold on it just yet. I think I can convince them to switch out and hopefully get some trade in value on our current car before it is completely worthless.

Regrettably, they are brand and look fanatics so a Rav 4 would be an easier sell for me but even then, I would like it to be on the market for a year or two to hopefully pick up an early adopter or returned PCP model for well below original asking price. We shall see how it goes.

The house is covered in solar panels, so an ideal plan would be a decent range like the kona. Looking at our longest to shortest drives, anything that can reliably go for 400km would be perfect. Although I don't expect us to ever need more that 270km on a single charge.

ELM327

Have you considered the Kona EV ? It is exactly that "Similar in distance to the IPace - actually it's better - but at half the price"

CramCycle

That's kind of what I was referring to about being ahead of the game a few years ago and then going backwards.

I am holding on for something like a full electric rav4. If it was similar in distance to the I pace but at half the price, I'd be all over it

ELM327

There have already been 2 full EV rav 4. Only sold in compliance markets like California and Oregon etc.
First gen was a NIMH battery and sold around the same time as the ford ranger EV and EV1.

Second gen was a 40kWh Tesla battery retrofitted into existing Rav4 models and sold by some Toyota dealers in the states above. Around 2012-2014 if memory serves. Came as standard with no fast charging but could be quite easily retrofitted with Chademo.

CramCycle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

New one is in showrooms....I seen one. Now I didn't ask the price but I would say EXPENSIVE.....

It was a beautiful car. The interior is 10 times better to the older model. I had a 2017 AWD RAV4 hybrid on a 2 week test earlier this year. I got around 8ltr/100km and that was not driving hard. The owner said that was about right for it. Maybe sometimes towards 7.5ltr. He said the 2WD does a lot better

If you go AWD then you will get poorer performance so unless you want to go into fields you are better with 2WD. Also the newer engine will be a lot better so you will see a huge jump in performance. I will try and stick up a few pics.

I'd hope the 2WD does better, my 2012 2.4L petrol Rav4 does as well as that.

Any word on them going for an all electric model anytime soon, I was so surprised when they went all out for Hybrids this year. They were so ahead of the game 5years ago and then just pulled out. They are a well liked car on the Irish market AFAIK, I imagine a full electric would have been a really good seller.

Shefwedfan

Mach Two wrote: »

What kind of reviews are they getting.

Everything I have heard is good.....I haven't bought one so I can't say myself....strongly thinking about it for a long time.....

I think a few thread on here about them