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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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igCorcaigh

May really needs Labour MPs to rebel

igCorcaigh

"Most Tory members would choose no deal over May's Brexit plan"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/04/most-tory-members-would-choose-no-deal-over-may-brexit-plan

"Survey also finds that in two-option poll, 76% would choose no deal over remain"

Anthracite

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You probably know that Ayn Rand took social security.

Wow, I did not know that. I will be sure to quote that ad nauseam at those people who suffer from the weird Objectivist cult.

Imreoir2

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now it may be the only UK tender received, but it should have been rejected out of hand.

1. The company was formed as a £2 company in April 2017, just one week after Art 50 was lodged.

2. The company has no filed accounts.

3. It has no ships of its own nor any on charter.

4. The company has never operated a ship or a lorry.

5. The UK port of Ramsgate cannot handle RORO ferries currently. Dredging will be required, which has not happened.

6. There were reports in Kent newpapers citing some strange activity involving this company.

Smells a lot of fish.

Seems legit...

I'm guessing this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are a lot of Brexit bad boys who are planning to cash in on the crash.

Capt'n Midnight

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border

This looks like it is getting serious with a 1000 new police trained for NI unrest if required.

If required ?

1,000 won't be enough if there is a hard border.

Last time there was a hard border 3,000 people died.

In addition to a much bigger police force, who had guns and armoured cars, there were also 27,000 troops.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom.

See above.

“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
- who pays the rough men ?

You probably know that Ayn Rand took social security. And you probably expect to benefit at the expense of the have-nots. Brexit means austerity will continue for years for those who don't have decent jobs or pensions.

Peregrinus

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.
My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected . . .

A true libertarian would be revolted and disturbed at the idea that, following a 52:48 vote, the political establishment's decrees about what the 52% voted for would be enforced both on the 52% and the 48%. That's a pretty glaring example of everything that libertarianism opposes.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

. . . and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

Libertarians don't like intervention by government agencies, but they have no particular animus againg intervention by EU agencies as opposed to agencies of national or local governments. The issue for real libertarians is not the level at which governments intervention should happen, but whether it should happen at all.

Libertarians might oppose the EU if they thought the EU was regulating matters which would otherwise go unregulated. But only a drivelling idiot would think that, and you're not that, are you?

josip

lawred2 wrote: »

Sure when all else fails, nothing like resorting to stirring up a bit of anti Irish sentiments.

Blame the Irish government for a problem entirely of the makings of a cabal of disaster capitalists, charlatans, elitists, racists and snake oil salesmen ably abetted by millions of useful fools.

Imagine him being your representative and having voted for him.

I think it would be an even worse feeling for him to be your representative and you hadn't voted for him.

boggerman1

Just wish this ****e was over now.the Brits want out but are scared ****less to actually walk away.crash out and enjoy the unicorns that follow

Strazdas

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JRM has caused quite a stir with his latest tweet. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1080837722208636929

I have been quite shocked at how much abuse the man has got for that tweet and the strong opinions that the UK can't survive or won't survive without being in bed with the EU. So many people are showing serious dislike towards the UK that its a little disturbing. Who needs friends hey.

It's a very strong claim to make. He's not just saying Ireland are being a bit of a nuisance.....he's claiming that if there is No Deal, it will be the fault of the Irish.

Anthracite

Midlife wrote: »

I don't think this is very thought through.

The UK are free to leave Europe so your love of freedom is intact.

So what's the problem? Lack of individual decision making and basic liberty?

But then how is a United Kingdom any more Libertarian than a United Europe?

Oddly enough, personal freedoms in Ireland have never been greater in human history. If this is oppression, I'll have some more of it please.

Midlife

cryptocurrency wrote: »

My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

I don't think this is very thought through.

The UK are free to leave Europe so your love of freedom is intact.

So what's the problem? Lack of individual decision making and basic liberty?

But then how is a United Kingdom any more Libertarian than a United Europe?

lawred2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JRM has caused quite a stir with his latest tweet. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1080837722208636929

I have been quite shocked at how much abuse the man has got for that tweet and the strong opinions that the UK can't survive or won't survive without being in bed with the EU. So many people are showing serious dislike towards the UK that its a little disturbing. Who needs friends hey.

Sure when all else fails, nothing like resorting to stirring up a bit of anti Irish sentiments.

Blame the Irish government for a problem entirely of the makings of a cabal of disaster capitalists, charlatans, elitists, racists and snake oil salesmen ably abetted by millions of useful fools.

Imagine him being your representative and having voted for him.

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU is doomed to fail and is holding back many nations. The real future is the developing world and Ireland should join the UK in taking it to them.

Did you know that Germany is per capita the world's greatest exporter? How is the UK being held back while Germany isn't? Especially considering that Germany is even more enmeshed in the evil EU than the UK is?

Enzokk

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.
My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

The EU is doomed to fail and is holding back many nations. The real future is the developing world and Ireland should join the UK in taking it to them.

I understand it would not be wise for Ireland to leave the EU right now but its collapse would mean we can remain friends with our neighbours and say at least we tried and hung in there with them...but now we need to head off and make some real cash.

That is interesting. Would you say the EU has held back Ireland? What do you make of the market that countries in the EU has to sell its goods to? Should that be ignored and should we be looking at countries like South Africa, Lesotho, Philippines and Vietnam to buy our goods instead of France, Spain, Italy and Germany?

What exposure does those developing nations have to Irish products that will make trade better for exporters here than the EU?

Finally, Europe is experiencing the longest period of peace since WW2, is this just an co-incidence and has nothing to do with the establishment of the EU and we should try and test that theory?

Enzokk

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

According to the German association of the automotive industry, in 2017 the country exported 769,000 cars to the UK, its single largest export market. The US came second with 494,000 cars. German carmakers also export 258,000 German-made vehicles to China. So for German made cars the UK buys more cars in a year than the second and third largest market combined.

But I accept your superior knowledge, the German motor industry will not be concerned by that at all.

Ah, statistics. Yes the UK is the biggest market for Germany when you look at the EU and other countries. They exported as you said 769,000 cars to the UK but that is from a total of 4.3m and from a total of 2.4m to the EU. So the UK market is significant to Germany, but last time I checked 1/3 is less than 2/3 so as others have pointed out the statement that the single market is more important to German auto makers is backed up by the numbers.

Also, if you take into account their domestic production as well, which is also in the EU, then the numbers look even worse for the assertion that many politicians have made that the German car makers will force a deal.

cryptocurrency

Anthracite wrote: »

Thanks for the information. It's very evident that you are fairly rabidly anti-EU, but in a manner that you can't quite seem to express in actual arguments that can actually be rebutted.

I am a libertarian and love freedom. It is what pulled me into the Crypto in 2012 as most libertarians were looking for money that could not be debased by the state.
My love of freedom means the vote in my eyes must be respected and should also explain why I don't like the EU. Libertarians all hate the EU, it's against everything they hold dear.

The EU is doomed to fail and is holding back many nations. The real future is the developing world and Ireland should join the UK in taking it to them.

I understand it would not be wise for Ireland to leave the EU right now but its collapse would mean we can remain friends with our neighbours and say at least we tried and hung in there with them...but now we need to head off and make some real cash.

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

short course, pharma based.

I am not so much pro-British as I am anti-EU and see the moves we have made against them and their democratic vote as nuts.

Thanks for the information. It's very evident that you are fairly rabidly anti-EU, but in a manner that you can't quite seem to express in actual arguments that can actually be rebutted.

10000maniacs

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

No, the component industry is not based completely on EU membership, components come from all around the world including China, Japan. India and the USA to give examples.

One of the likely effects of Brexit is that more component production will move to Britain for better provision of vehicle parts. The UK motor industry might well grow - despite what the British government gets businesses to say in an attempt to remain in some kind of Customs Union.

Not very likely. Unless discoveries of bauxite, chromite, copper, anglesite, cerussite, magnetite and hematite are found under the UK in the next three months, I see your plan floundering.
The EU will still have 3rd country deals with the countries that mine these raw materials so it would be a lot cheaper to import these raw materials and produce these car parts in say Poland than the UK if there is a no deal Brexit.

cryptocurrency

Anthracite wrote: »

The really weird thing is that he appears to have been a student in IT Tallaght. I wonder was that important in forming his British identity?

What say you, Cryptocurrency? When did you find you had these right wing British opinions, did they form before or after your stint in ITT? Very interested to hear about how you formed these views.

short course, pharma based.

I am not so much pro-British as I am anti-EU and see the moves we have made against them and their democratic vote as nuts.

FrancieBrady

Mogg is useful to the Brexit crowd. But he has smelt the future, the mob turning n him (and they will) and is desperately trying to deflect. Much like Arlene does up north.

Anthracite

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Or he's a Brit, with a chip on his shoulder.

The really weird thing is that he appears to have been a student in IT Tallaght. I wonder was that important in forming his British identity?

What say you, Cryptocurrency? When did you find you had these right wing British opinions, did they form before or after your stint in ITT? Very interested to hear about how you formed these views.

An Claidheamh

Midlife wrote: »

Not taking the piss but can I ask what you're basing this on given you seem to live in Ireland.

Or he's a Brit, with a chip on his shoulder.

Something I've noticed in this whole Brexit process, is that the only way the British can try to persuade people of Brexit ... is to pretend they're Irish.

Rather a hilarious end to Britain as a medium sized power/influencer.

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Don't confuse the large social media presence of die-hard remainers and Corbyn fans and the reality on the ground.

Mogg is extremely popular.

The likes of Mogg being 'extremely popular' is very much not to the UK's credit. It rather confirms a lot of stereotypes.

Infini

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JRM has caused quite a stir with his latest tweet. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1080837722208636929

I have been quite shocked at how much abuse the man has got for that tweet and the strong opinions that the UK can't survive or won't survive without being in bed with the EU. So many people are showing serious dislike towards the UK that its a little disturbing. Who needs friends hey.

I'd be honest considering the ways he's acted and the damage him and his cohorts risk causing I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up with a permenant police escort or forced to live under armed guard for the rest of his days. There's being an idiot and then theres been a incompetent fool and theres plenty of suspicions hes got financial motivations to cause a car crash Brexit.

Honestly trying to blame Ireland for his governments failures isn't gonna fly with anyone except the willfully ignorant who refuse to accept the factual truth before them.

A Dub in Glasgo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Don't confuse the large social media presence of die-hard remainers and Corbyn fans and the reality on the ground.

Mogg is extremely popular.

Really popular with his own type - the majority of people in the UK have no truck with him as they recognise a self serving coward when they see one

Midlife

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Don't confuse the large social media presence of die-hard remainers and Corbyn fans and the reality on the ground.

Mogg is extremely popular.

Not taking the piss but can I ask what you're basing this on given you seem to live in Ireland.

cryptocurrency

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The majority of people in the UK are no friends of the likes of JRM and are telling him so

Don't confuse the large social media presence of die-hard remainers and Corbyn fans and the reality on the ground.

Mogg is extremely popular.

A Dub in Glasgo

cryptocurrency wrote: »

JRM has caused quite a stir with his latest tweet. https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1080837722208636929

I have been quite shocked at how much abuse the man has got for that tweet and the strong opinions that the UK can't survive or won't survive without being in bed with the EU. So many people are showing serious dislike towards the UK that its a little disturbing. Who needs friends hey.

The majority of people in the UK are no friends of the likes of JRM and are telling him so

Anthracite

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Femi, oh please.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border

This looks like it is getting serious with a 1000 new police trained for NI unrest if required.

Yeah, that will totally cover it. 40,000 troops are clearly less effective.

igCorcaigh

John Burton losing the rag here with Graham Gudgin at 52:30

https://youtu.be/3MMTYyqnDTI