RobMc59 wrote: » In your own post you mention that Ireland has no legitimate claim on the territory of NI so why do you mention an occupying country?In addition you mention the UK removing all border infrastructure and allowing republicans to feel like they live in a single Ireland(is`nt that a good thing?). Obviously there are republicans in NI who would`nt show loyalty to the Queen which they are entitled to do-I realised I should have acknowledged that difference as soon as I posted last night and apologise for saying it in a thoughtless way. I would like to see a UI and have discussed this before on thread V,is it reasonable to say Ireland would have to say they would like a UI and then the possibility of a referendum could be looked at?Would republican voters in the North vote and would it be an attractive proposition to the people of NI?Obviously brexit makes the future murky but there are pluses and minuses to both sides of the argument.
Tell me how wrote: » The examples downcow was referring to (I think) included the claim that the EU economy would tank and there would be several 100,000 more unemployed within a short time after the referendum, if they voted to leave. This didn't happen.
Gerry T wrote: » No, NI is a special case because of the good Friday agreement. First the UK practically removed all border infrastructure/presence and allowed republicans feel like they live in a single ireland. ROI then changed it's constitution, by referendum removing it's legitimate claim to the territory of NI and in direct response to you both the UK and ROI govts allow any citizen of NI to hold a UK or Irish passport. Why would someone living in ni, that identifies as Irish, holding a Irish passport show any loyalty to the queen of an occupying country.
Gerry T wrote: » ... with the staggering inaccuracies in you post I think it would be more beneficial for you to go do some honest research.
downcow wrote: » This is fairly typical of the problem with the two sides in this debate and the blinkers they are wearing. You say “the hall was full of EU gold star flags”. Do me a favour and google images of it. Yeah sure there was a small group who brought Eu flags (note they are all together in a bunch and have exactly the same flag - coincidence I guess). To suggest the hall was full of Eu flags and the UK flag was missing - we’ll need I say more?
downcow wrote: » You’re missing the point. I am not holding the bus up as an example of brexiteer honesty. I am pointing out that both sides stretched the truth to its limit and the bus is an example of that. And you are back again quoting net, the bus referred to gross
jochenstacker wrote: » Well, please list examples of this truth stretching. Because this just sounds like "I know you are, but what am I?" In other words empty whataboutery.
Sam Russell wrote: » I think you are missing the fundamental question of the Brexit vote. 1. Those that voted remain voted for the status quo. That is they knew exactly what they were voting for. 2. Those that voted to leave voted against staying in the EU. Now they had no unified vision of what, if anything, they were voting FOR. The lies told by the leave side were based on: 1. A fictitious amount of money remitted to the EU, (which was about 1% of the UK Gov spending). It was deliberately inflated, with no mention of the rebate, or the compensating cost required to duplicate the pooled EU agencies to function as a state in the world. 2. The bare faced lie about immigration being under the control of the EU, despite the lion's share of immigration for non-EU countries. The lack of using any valid restrictions allowed under EU rules. 3. The emotive line about 'taking back control of our laws and our borders' which turned out to be total BS. Turns out not one Brexiteer can identify one EU law that they want to take back, and now they want an open EU border in NI. 4. The racist push showing hoards of immigrants heading towards the UK, implying that Turkey was going to join the EU, and unleash huge numbers into the UK. Any lies told by the Remain side were pointless since everyone knew what remain meant. No-one knew what Leave meant, because it meant all things to all people. It could mean whatever you wanted it to mean - pure populism. No, Brexit was driven by lies, foreign money, Russian bots, illegal spending, and very dodgy people with hidden agendas. Now we see a £14 million contract going to a £2 start up company to provide shipping services. The company was formed on 5 th April 2017, just one week after Article 50 was lodged. Wonder what is behind that? Less than 90 days to go, and no-one knows what will happen.
Tell me how wrote: » One guy said that most in the area he is in (near Stoke) think that the EU are being awkward and don't want them to leave but eventually they will get their way. ?
listermint wrote: » No point responding to this. The whole penchant is to spread disinformation in the guise of having a both sides discussion and then shout about echo chamber when people ignore them. Its a tried and tested method and quite frankly it is backed by external forces. They sow the seeds and gormless people pick it up and continue it. I have a good friend who has a form of Asperger's and spends their entire day promoting anti EU propaganda and pro russian information he holds Putin up as a strong man. Its these types of people that third party actors target .
lawred2 wrote: » I did The 'London is Open' tagline had me rolling my eyes. A bit late for all that really
Scoondal wrote: » Oh, suddenly they like us. Thought they hated us foreigners polluting their precious country. Can they please decide ? PLEASE DECIDE...then we can start our future relationship. Do you like us or not ? We need to move on...I need to move on...you need to move on...
lawred2 wrote: » The bus did in its backside refer to gross. Show us one single bit of corroborating evidence to back up that ridiculous statement.. It said 350m for the NHS. It did not say 350m less deductions for the NHS. Seriously, and you have the gall to pontificate about honesty...
RobMc59 wrote: No disrespect,but as British citizens isn't it normal for people from NI to be loyal to the Queen?
Gerry T wrote: » Just catching up so sorry if this has been answered. It's been shown the net contribution from the UK is in the region of 7.5b, give or take a couple of million. That's close to 145m a week. It's also been estimated that the UK economy has slowed and since brexit is 2.5% behind where it would be, mostly attributed to brexit. This has cost the UK a growth of 500m a week, to me that aligns pretty close with a financial disaster post a vote. Now the UK haven't yet replicated the 40 or more departments that they avail of as part of the EU, ones the UK will have to replicate post a hard brexit. Neither does it account for additional customs officials for your global WTO trade. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I'm on my ph so difficult to link but with the staggering inaccuracies in you post I think it would be more beneficial for you to go do some honest research.
CelticRambler wrote: » You obviously don't watch the Proms - something I always regarded as one of the best annual manifestations of Great British Pride. Well, after the referendum went the "wrong" way, instead of the usual sea of Union Jacks, the hall was full of EU gold star flags. .
downcow wrote: I don’t have the time or the energy to respond to all that. Problem is you seem to think remain told truth and leave told lies. The fact is they both equally stretched the truth. Take your first point about the bus. My understanding is that the bus said there would be £350m available to health service that is currently going to Eu this is factually correct (or as was pointed out this week it was under estimated actually over 400) this is the money that won’t go to Eu so our elect reps in UK can decide to do with it what the wish incl health service. As for the remain predictions. We were told by great and good that the economy would crash the day after the referendum if we voted out (not after we left - the day after the vote). This patently did not happen, indeed the is all time record high employment in UK today. So while this nonsense continues I think we are headed out fast as people can see the spin of the remainders. And I say this as someone who didn’t vote because I was neutral. I am growing more of a brexiteers everyday
downcow wrote: » This is exactly the point I am making. Both sides stretched the truth.
Faced with the shock to the economy of the Brexit vote, the Bank of England had a choice. It could sit tight and hope the storm would quickly blow over, or it could assume the worst and act accordingly. Perhaps understandably, Threadneedle Street has decided to go for the all-action approach. It was slow to react to the great recession of 2008 and 2009, and was not going to be accused of making the same mistake twice. The risks of doing nothing were higher than the risks of providing oodles of fresh stimulus. To be sure, the Bank could have waited until it had more evidence of how the economy was doing post Brexit. But changes to policy take time to work, so the case for early and aggressive action is strong. As Mark Carney put it, there is a case for stimulus and there is a case for stimulus now. The backdrop to the four-part package is the assumption that there is going to be a marked slowdown in activity as a result of the 23 June referendum. Recession is avoided, but only just and only because the Bank’s nine-strong monetary policy committee (MPC) assumes that lower interest rates, a new scheme to encourage commercial banks to pass on lower borrowing costs and £70bn worth of additional money creation will boost activity over the coming months and years. Even so, the Bank has cut its growth forecast for 2016 to 2018 by a cumulative 2.5% of GDP. That represents the biggest ever downgrade between any two of its quarterly inflation reports that have been produced for the past 23 years.
kunst nugget wrote: » Anyone watch the London fireworks display? Some very EU touches thrown into it, I thought. A snippet of Serge Gainsbourg's Je T'aime, U2's Vertigo with it's Spanish/Portuguese count-in and the French National anthem snippet from the Beatles All You Need is Love.
foxyladyxx wrote: » Apologies .. but I wonder if many feel like I do? It is good riddance!!
downcow wrote: » And great to recognise the close relationships. We are not leaving Europe. We are leaving the eu
Strazdas wrote: » Part of the problem is that Britain has never had any real debate or discussion about EU membership or the UK's role in Europe (not in recent decades anyway). The press were just sniping away at the EU for many years and calling it a Nazi style dictatorship etc. The complete lack of engagement with, or knowledge of, the EU has led us to where we are today.
dfx- wrote: » I don't think that's unexpected or failing them at all. From living in England, most colleagues at University level don't engage with the probable enormity of it. Amongst the regular population of a city that voted leave, it's no different. A persevering attitude reigns supreme and if there was a second vote, they'd still vote to leave. And for no deal above remaining. It's ultimately a question they should never have been asked. But regardless of the media, if you keep asking them, you'll get the same answer.
dfx- wrote: » I don't think that's unexpected or failing them at all. From living in England, most colleagues at University level don't engage with the probable enormity of it. Amongst the regular population of a city that voted leave, it's no different. A persevering attitude reigns supreme and if there was a second vote, they'd still vote to leave. And for no deal above remaining.It's ultimately a question they should never have been asked. But regardless of the media, if you keep asking them, you'll get the same answer.
Strazdas wrote: » I can only guess the British media are seriously failing their readers / viewers. Half the population think they won't be negatively impacted by Brexit in the slightest.
