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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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Borderhopper

Risteard81 wrote: »

That would be hugely anti-democratic like everything the so-called "EU" does. Just like with Nice 2 and Lisbon 2.

The truth is Brexit is the correct decision, and all countries should leave the so-called "EU" and the so-called "EU" should go away and die. Our heroes of '16 would be appalled by it.

I don't think anyone can say for sure what people who have been dead for over 100 years would do

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

The Irish and Dutch governments are so concerned about the possible impact on their companies that they are offering cash grants and vouchers worth between â‚¬2,500 and â‚¬1.5m to companies with a particularl exposure to the UK, to pay for specialist advice or help them look for new markets.

Any more details on this? Any business people here been contacted? Good to see strong support.

There are radio ads about it from Enterprise Ireland and Inter Trade Ireland.

Water John

Many export Cos have diversified their markets gradually and quietly over the last 2 years.

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

There are radio ads about it from Enterprise Ireland and Inter Trade Ireland.

Has been going on for almost a year now I would say. I wonder what the uptake was?

Calina

Risteard81 wrote: »

That would be hugely anti-democratic like everything the so-called "EU" does. Just like with Nice 2 and Lisbon 2.

The truth is Brexit is the correct decision, and all countries should leave the so-called "EU" and the so-called "EU" should go away and die. Our heroes of '16 would be appalled by it.

The world in 1916 was very different to what it is now.

People who think we should all be governed by what they project a bunch of martyrs who were executed 100 plus years ago would do need to start dealing with that reality. They are not some sort of demigods whose will needs to impose for alm time.

A metric tonne of countries got independence in 1918. We are not special snowflakes and Pearse was one man. He was not Jesus.

But either way they were men of their times. We are people of ours. You are no different to any little Englander if you hark back constantly to 1916. You should give up your computer if you do. You do not get to cherry pick and you do not know what the 1916 cohort would have done. I am disgusted by people who exploit their deaths and memoried to project their own political objectives. Humanity evolves and the EU is far better for Ireland than either isolation or the acts of union.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

From the guardian:

The Irish and Dutch governments are so concerned about the possible impact on their companies that they are offering cash grants and vouchers worth between €2,500 and €1.5m to companies with a particularl exposure to the UK, to pay for specialist advice or help them look for new markets.

Any more details on this? Any business people here been contacted? Good to see strong support.

link for your quote https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/eu-nations-planning-no-deal-brexit-customs-trade

Faisal Islam from SKY has been posting about this for a while
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1075698957014179840

PeadarCo

fash wrote:

Our "heroes of '16" wanted us to escape the control and mistreatment of the UK- Brexit has shown that the EU has given us that (and that leaving the EU would put us back under UK control)- the "heroes of 16" would in fact be appalled at the idea of leaving the EU.

Sean Lemass who fought in the Easter rising tried to get Ireland to join the EU back in the 60's. He failed due to the UK being rejected and the impact that had on Irelandâ€™s bit. So at least one person who fought in the rising and subsequent war of independence had no problem with the EU.

prawnsambo

PeadarCo wrote: »

Sean Lemass who fought in the Easter rising tried to get Ireland to join the EU back in the 60's. He failed due to the UK being rejected and the impact that had on Ireland’s bit. So at least one person who fought in the rising and subsequent war of independence had no problem with the EU.

Risteard doesn't even recognise the Republic of Ireland, wasting your time trying to persuade him about the legitimacy of the EU.

ThePanjandrum

PeadarCo wrote: »

Sean Lemass who fought in the Easter rising tried to get Ireland to join the EU back in the 60's. He failed due to the UK being rejected and the impact that had on Ireland’s bit. So at least one person who fought in the rising and subsequent war of independence had no problem with the EU.

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

oscarBravo

Risteard81 wrote: »

That would be hugely anti-democratic like everything the so-called "EU" does. Just like with Nice 2 and Lisbon 2.

The truth is Brexit is the correct decision, and all countries should leave the so-called "EU" and the so-called "EU" should go away and die. Our heroes of '16 would be appalled by it.

That's three iterations of 'so-called "EU"' in a single short post.

I don't know whether it was you or someone else who did the same thing before and ran away when asked to explain, but I'll ask anyway: when you say 'so-called "EU"', what the hell are you talking about? Are you denying the existence of the European Union? Do you think it's actually called something else?

Midlife

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

But there was plenty of ex-revolutionary support for the 'United' Nations...which is a union.

So does that make your point null and void?

Or maybe the change wasn't so significant?

To be honest, it's fairly obvious that practically all of the irish leaders through the last 100 years have supported collectivism and strong national ties.

Any attempt to say otherwise is simply stupid.

Akrasia

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

Ireland voted on the Maastricht treaty in 1992 and passed it by almost 70%

We can't say we weren't consulted. The UK also ratified the Maastricht treaty via their own political process. The EU didn't force itself onto anyone

Calina

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

Yes, this was directed by the members of the EEC and EC. Evolution happens.

And yes you can leave and get an FTA. Thw problem is leaving and still keeping membership rights.

Sam Russell

PeadarCo wrote: »

Sean Lemass who fought in the Easter rising tried to get Ireland to join the EU back in the 60's. He failed due to the UK being rejected and the impact that had on Ireland’s bit. So at least one person who fought in the rising and subsequent war of independence had no problem with the EU.

To me the greatest of the 'men of 1916' was T. K. Whitaker, born Dec 1916, and died over 100 years later in Jan 2017. He did more for Ireland than any other man in the last 100 years. He of course was helped by Lemass, who listened to him and brought Ireland out of the depressing fifties.

Both Lemass and Whitaker went to Belfast in Jan 1965 to open talks with Capt Terence O'Neil, but Unionist opposition prevented a favourable outcome. How different Ireland would be today if that foray had resulted in political progress.

Anthracite

prawnsambo wrote: »

Risteard doesn't even recognise the Republic of Ireland, wasting your time trying to persuade him about the legitimacy of the EU.

We will give due weight to his views then...

Infini

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

Organisations evolve. Circumstances change. The truth is that in order to have influence in todays world you NEED both population and economic strenght in order to be able to have control over your own affairs. This is why the EU came about as it did. By pooling its resources and having a common set of rules decided by ALL then theyre able to have control over things like standards and such and not be dictated by an external entity like China.

The problem with the UK in this case is they think they have "control" by leaving the EU. Its a fantasy. They'll either get strongarmed by the likes of China or the US or forced to lower their standards to subpar levels to suit their interests and the UK cant say squat because it doesnt have the power or ability outside the EU to say otherwise.

EU isnt perfect it needs improvements but its far bettsr than some other places out there.

LeinsterDub

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963?fbclid=IwAR34M0FvRGklDA017dS-DuRXY04mWSF3RE2ZSC3zjtYTzCwaYB79ZgNAD3M

We will save billions of pounds from our EU divorce payment as well as a similar amount from Civil Service and Govt costs. This money will be used to support our own country whilst we await the EU to talk to us to make deals more in our favour. The EU border in Ireland to be managed simply by having a dual Euro / pound currency as legal tender in both the North and South. Exports to the South would be dealt with in Euro and vice versa when importing to the North. Rates fixed at time of the deal

Nearly 300 k people have signed this petition effectively pegging the pound to the euro to take back control!

Anthracite

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963?fbclid=IwAR34M0FvRGklDA017dS-DuRXY04mWSF3RE2ZSC3zjtYTzCwaYB79ZgNAD3M

Nearly 300 k people have signed this petition effectively pegging the pound to the euro to take back control!

The fact that they think that the issue around EU/Non-EU trade can be resolved with a currency peg illustrates just how ignorant they are.

Sam Russell

Anthracite wrote: »

The fact that they think that the issue around EU/Non-EU trade can be resolved with a currency peg illustrates just how ignorant they are.

Oh how quickly they forget the 'snake' and Black Wednesday. Is Soros still around spending his billions won by betting against the Bank of England?

If they want to peg the GBP to the Euro they should join it.

Imreoir2

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

Ireland joined the EEC and it now finds itself a part of the EU. Notice the name change, it was an "Economic Community," it is now a "Union." The change is significant.

It seems quite rational that if you joined an "Economic Community" but don't want to be part of a "Union" you should be free to leave and establish links instead (through an FTA) which provide what you wanted.

Ireland and the UK, and every other memberstate ratified the change through a treaty. Ireland did so by referendum. The change was not something that was imposed, it was something that was created and agreed together.

PeadarCo

ThePanjandrum wrote:

I doubt this very much because the EU did not exist then.

That's being pedantic. Lemass wanted Ireland to join the EEC. So the idea that people who fought in the Rising is rubbish given that one of them wanted to join the EU in an earlier form. Ireland can leave whenever we want to. However given the most recent polling data its very unlikely. Only far right and far left parties in Ireland have any desire to. Also as the UK has shown leaving has consequences.

Imreoir2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963?fbclid=IwAR34M0FvRGklDA017dS-DuRXY04mWSF3RE2ZSC3zjtYTzCwaYB79ZgNAD3M

Nearly 300 k people have signed this petition effectively pegging the pound to the euro to take back control!

Not to mention thinking that a petition to Westminster can influence what is legal tender in Dublin.

endacl

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The so-called "EU" is what the so-called "heroes of 16" ment when they refered to Ireland taking her place among the so-called "nations" of the world, if you ask me.

“Arise, Knocknagoshel....”

Jim2007

Obviously the mentality of a DM poster - we tend to expect higher standards here, so please stop using 'so-called' and putting the EU in quotes, you are only embarrassing yourself with that nonsense.

Risteard81 wrote: »

That would be hugely anti-democratic like everything the so-called "EU" does. Just like with Nice 2 and Lisbon 2.

Next you don't get to define what our democracy is, that is something we have defined and set in our constitution. And under the Irish constitution we are fully entitled to consider and reconsider any issue we choose to do so.

As to the Nice & Lisbon treaties and related matters, just to clear your DM haze: Ireland have never held a second vote on the same version of an EU treaty nor have we ever voted on the question of leaving the EU. This is done and dusted and if it is all you have, then you have nothing worth contributing.

Risteard81 wrote: »

The truth is Brexit is the correct decision, and all countries should leave the so-called "EU" and the so-called "EU" should go away and die.

In accordance with A50 any member state can leave the EU as we can see from the UK's decision. But in doing so the UK must accept that the EU is under no obligation to disadvantage itself in favour of the UK. And we make no apology for that.

The UK will have to come to accept that is it a medium sized economy of interest to the major trading blocks, but small enough to be the junior partner in all the deals. And junior partners do not get to dictate terms, they get told what is on offer and are left to decide it they want to accept or not.

Risteard81 wrote: »

Our heroes of '16 would be appalled by it.

You have no right what so every to speak for the men and women of 1916, you did not know any of them and you most certainly do not respect them by putting words into their mouths, they never had, just so you can try to win an argument.

They are of their time and we are of ours. They fought so that we would have the right to determine our destiny and we as is our right have decided that that, at least for the present is as member of the EU.

Now show a bit of respect for the men and women of 1916 and stop claiming you speak for them, you do not and never will.

Capt'n Midnight

Anthracite wrote: »

The fact that they think that the issue around EU/Non-EU trade can be resolved with a currency peg illustrates just how ignorant they are.

There's also the minor technical issue that if they don't pay now then they will pay later in tariffs, more and for longer.

It's like expecting SKY to keep giving you a loyalty discount when you stop paying off your arrears. This in a country where there are ads all the time on telly going on about how stuffed you are if your credit rating is damaged.

UK Labour is a lot cheaper since the pound devalued. Pegging it to the Euro means they couldn't devalue the pound further. This would affect stockholder profits and the transfer of wealth from workers to speculators.

Bank of England will probably increase interest rates over the next year. This will suck if you have a mortgage or are in debt. UK Households have now gone two years where expenditure has exceeded income.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
- Charles Dickens

First Up

Jim2007 wrote:

Now show a bit of respect for the men and women of 1916 and stop claiming you speak for them, you do not and never will.

The irony is that the 1916 leaders were not executed for having the impertince to challenge British rule. They were executed for collaborating with Germany half way through the First World War.

So the idea of brave little Ireland battling alone doesn't stand up to scrutiny then any more than it does now.

Strazdas

First Up wrote: »

The irony is that the 1916 leaders were not executed for having the impertince to challenge British rule. They were executed for collaborating with Germany half way through the First World War.

So the idea of brave little Ireland battling alone doesn't stand up to scrutiny then any more than it does now.

No, nothing to do with treason or the Germans. They were executed under martial law (temporary military law) imposed by General Maxwell during Rising week : anyone taking up arms against Crown forces was liable to be executed (or imprisoned).

First Up

Strazdas wrote:

No, nothing to do with treason or the Germans. They were executed under martial law (temporary military law) imposed by General Maxwell during Rising week : anyone taking up arms against Crown forces was liable to be executed (or imprisoned).

Yes, the open declaration of alliance with Germany had nothing at all to do with it

Capt'n Midnight

First Up wrote: »

Yes, the open declaration of alliance with Germany had nothing at all to do with it

what about the 25,000 rifles and millions of bullets the Ulster Volunteers got from Germany :rolleyes:

And what about...

Anyway back to now.

The UK have been getting the drug firms to sign gagging orders over Brexit backup plans. Department of transport too. Democracy and transparency.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/23/pharmaceutical-firms-preparing-no-deal-brexit-ordered-to-sign-ndas

Captain Obvious

Risteard81 wrote: »

That would be hugely anti-democratic like everything the so-called "EU" does. Just like with Nice 2 and Lisbon 2.

The truth is Brexit is the correct decision, and all countries should leave the so-called "EU" and the so-called "EU" should go away and die. Our heroes of '16 would be appalled by it.

Do you not believe the name of the European Union? I don't get the quotes and the "so-called".