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Brexit Discussion Thread VI

johnnyskeleton

Hi folks, as Theresa May has won the vote of no confidence and we are heading into Brexit day early next year, I thought for the new thread people might give their summary of their views on Brexit to date before we get into the more day to day discussions.

So what do you think about what has happened so far? Who has come off well, who has come off badly?

Where do you think Brexit is going? What is going to be the likely impact on Ireland, Northern Ireland, the rest of the U.K. and the E.U. respectively?

Both this thread and the Mark V thread will remain open simultaneously for the next day or so and Mark V will be closed as it gets closer to the server busting 10,000 mark. Hopefully we can set down a solid foundation now for a top quality thread to come!

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nice_guy80

Schools are sending letters to parents to ask for money to help pay for supplies. This is after these parents pay their taxes for these very same supplies for schools. It is really rather depressing to see what is happening in the UK right now.

Sounds like Ireland to be honest.
Underfunded education system while giant corporations don't pay their share of taxes and our government invent loopholes to allow large holding companies avoid paying tax on a range of things

badtoro

20silkcut wrote: »

And biggest opponents of the CAP. Britain is country with very low agricultural priority. There will be upsides to their leaving for many EU countries possibly even ourselves long term.

Questionable in relation to CAP. Heard from MEPs at a meeting lately the EU budget will increase after brexit, but the CAP budget is to be cut from 37 % right down to 30%. One said a lot of funding to go into PESCO instead.

Anthracite

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Sounds like Ireland to be honest.
Underfunded education system while giant corporations don't pay their share of taxes and our government invent loopholes to allow large holding companies avoid paying tax on a range of things

We have a choice of having higher corpo tax rates and fewer good jobs. Let's not pretend that this is a simple equation. It was the corporation tax cuts driven largely by the Progressive Democrats that have made Ireland a global tech hub.

nice_guy80

Anthracite wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Sounds like Ireland to be honest.
Underfunded education system while giant corporations don't pay their share of taxes and our government invent loopholes to allow large holding companies avoid paying tax on a range of things

We have a choice of having higher corpo tax rates and fewer good jobs. Let's not pretend that this is a simple equation. It was the corporation tax cuts driven largely by the Progressive Democrats that have made Ireland a global tech hub.

All those shell companies funelling money through Ireland.
Why?
Why should a corporate giant like Google or Apple get a more favourable tax deal the fella running a local engineering business employing a few people?

[Deleted User]

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All those shell companies funelling money through Ireland.
Why?
Why should a corporate giant like Google or Apple get a more favourable tax deal the fella running a local engineering business employing a few people?

Because it brings in a couple of billion euros a year for us.

prawnsambo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All those shell companies funelling money through Ireland.
Why?
Why should a corporate giant like Google or Apple get a more favourable tax deal the fella running a local engineering business employing a few people?

The fella in the local engineering shop can get a nice few bob tax free into his pocket if he patents something he's made. I actually know a light engineering company that did this.

Anthracite

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All those shell companies funelling money through Ireland.
Why?
Why should a corporate giant like Google or Apple get a more favourable tax deal the fella running a local engineering business employing a few people?

Why should a company employing over 7,000 people in well-paid high-skilled jobs that would not be in the country otherwise get more favourable tax treatment than the local fella employing a few people?

Hmm...let me think about that for a while.

Anthracite

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

137k want no deal, apparently queues at ports will focus EUs attention and agree to all their demands. The insanity of it all, Putin and his trolls must be rofling

Demonstrating a keen understandig of the NI border issue here with a simple solution that it is amazing nobody else suggested:

The EU border in Ireland to be managed simply by having a dual Euro / pound currency as legal tender in both the North and South. Exports to the South would be dealt with in Euro and vice versa when importing to the North. Rates fixed at time of the deal.

Shelga

Chuka Umunna in Andrew Marr saying he thinks the question on the ballot paper in a second vote should be: No Deal, or Remain. Odd but interesting position to take. Dangerous, in my opinion- there’s a real chance No Deal could win??

20silkcut

badtoro wrote: »

Questionable in relation to CAP. Heard from MEPs at a meeting lately the EU budget will increase after brexit, but the CAP budget is to be cut from 37 % right down to 30%. One said a lot of funding to go into PESCO instead.

Can’t see that happening Germany and France have huge agricultural industries and interests. The last thing any politician would advocate would be drastic cuts especially in light of the current turmoil in France. Nothing more militant than a French farmer.

murphaph

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All those shell companies funelling money through Ireland.
Why?
Why should a corporate giant like Google or Apple get a more favourable tax deal the fella running a local engineering business employing a few people?

Because a tiny share of a vast sum provides more social services than a larger share of a tiny sum. You have to play to your strengths. We're an island nation off the northwest coast of Europe with no real (traditional) natural resources. We've played the right game so far and shooting the golden goose is not the way to go. Better to give the fella running the small business the same tax breaks but good luck selling that politically to PAYE voters.

I believe the state should promote indigenous industry. Making Ireland a tech and pharma hub was the single best step that could ever have been taken to do this. Hundreds of thousands of experienced and skilled people in Ireland thanks to multinationals. These people can start indigenous companies with these skills. I know people who went that route and now employ themselves.

dr.fuzzenstein

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

137k want no deal, apparently queues at ports will focus EUs attention and agree to all their demands. The insanity of it all, Putin and his trolls must be rofling

Absolutely fantastic. Operation Birdbrain is already in full swing in the run up to a potential second referendum.
The internet will be awash with torrents of hateful bile from now until it's either run or called off.
Nothing easier than to stir the pot and mobilise the crazies.

Donald Trump

Anthracite wrote: »

Demonstrating a keen understandig of the NI border issue here with a simple solution that it is amazing nobody else suggested:

Soros would be happy

Given that he made a billion pushing UK out of ERM back in the day

Presumably these genii want no differences between NI and UK....which necessitates pegging GBP to EUR

CelticRambler

After the whirlwind at the start of the week, are we going through a bit of a Brexitless cold turkey on this thread? United Ireland (again); EU army conspiracy, fake news and French riots; Corporation Tax and the Plain Man of Ireland ...

Anyone know if Sky's Kate McCann is single, coz

Shelga wrote: »

Chuka Umunna in Andrew Marr saying he thinks the question on the ballot paper in a second vote should be: No Deal, or Remain. Odd but interesting position to take. Dangerous, in my opinion- there’s a real chance No Deal could win??

Well, that is essentially Ref 1 re-phrased to be ever-so-slightly more precise. They could do better by placing a list of all the EU Agencies and Projects on the "No Deal" side that Britain will lose access to.

But yes, there's still a reasonable chance that No Deal would win. Scary, really, in the face of all the information that is available now.

Hurrache

Sigh, someone mentioning Soros, you'll be talking about the new world order ran by fairies next.

Peter Flynt

Anthracite wrote: »

We have a choice of having higher corpo tax rates and fewer good jobs. Let's not pretend that this is a simple equation. It was the corporation tax cuts driven largely by the Progressive Democrats that have made Ireland a global tech hub.

Germany has a CT rate of 32% and I doubt anyone would seriously argue that they have few "good jobs".

The Irish are beholden to the foreigner.

Donald Trump

SNIP. No more nonsense please.

Captain Obvious

prawnsambo wrote: »

The fella in the local engineering shop can get a nice few bob tax free into his pocket if he patents something he's made. I actually know a light engineering company that did this.

I wonder will UK patents and copyrights have any force after Brexit?

Anthracite

murphaph wrote: »

I believe the state should promote indigenous industry. Making Ireland a tech and pharma hub was the single best step that could ever have been taken to do this. Hundreds of thousands of experienced and skilled people in Ireland thanks to multinationals. These people can start indigenous companies with these skills. I know people who went that route and now employ themselves.

Intercom is another example of a company founded by 4 Irish people who learned their trade in Silicon Valley companies here - valued at over a billion euros now, with its engineering heart in Dublin, even if 'HQ' is in Silicon Valley as that's basically a requirement for funding and exposure in the tech world these days.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Back on topic please. Feel free to start a new thread about corporation tax.

hill16bhoy

Shelga wrote: »

Chuka Umunna in Andrew Marr saying he thinks the question on the ballot paper in a second vote should be: No Deal, or Remain. Odd but interesting position to take. Dangerous, in my opinion- there’s a real chance No Deal could win??

If there's a second referendum, May's deal has to be on the ballot paper.

That it will almost certainly be rejected by parliament is irrelevant.

The whole point of referendums in a British context is to make parliament irrelevant - any bill to leave the EU would have been soundly defeated in parliament before June 23, 2016.

Christy42

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

137k want no deal, apparently queues at ports will focus EUs attention and agree to all their demands. The insanity of it all, Putin and his trolls must be rofling

Absolutely fantastic. Operation Birdbrain is already in full swing in the run up to a potential second referendum.
The internet will be awash with torrents of hateful bile from now until it's either run or called off.
Nothing easier than to stir the pot and mobilise the crazies.

Am I the only one wondering how pegging the pound to the euro is achieving a split from the EU? It is effectively taking up the euro, albeit temporary (with no time limit).

Captain Obvious

hill16bhoy wrote: »

If there's a second referendum, May's deal has to be on the ballot paper.

That it will almost certainly be rejected by parliament is irrelevant.

The whole point of referendums in a British context is to make parliament irrelevant - any bill to leave the EU would have been soundly defeated in parliament before June 23, 2016.

Referendums are still only advisory for them. Really the 3 options should be there with a transferable vote.

[Deleted User]

Stupid question time: Has anyone ever done a double referendum?

Leave vs. Remain
May's deal vs. No deal

FrancieBrady

Have to say, I kinda agree with May here. It must be hugely frustrating to have at least 2 former PM's (Blair and Major) chirping away in the background.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-may-accuses-blair-of-insulting-british-people-and-office-of-prime-minister-1.3732984?fbclid=IwAR0qyEpEKq6TVKv3AGHN1oPhy2b1a21QbwkA4VwmeziKT3Q4p7fZhybXfp8

J Mysterio

Shelga wrote: »

Chuka Umunna in Andrew Marr saying he thinks the question on the ballot paper in a second vote should be: No Deal, or Remain. Odd but interesting position to take. Dangerous, in my opinion- there’s a real chance No Deal could win??

Bizarre suggestion from someone who should know better.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have to say, I kinda agree with May here. It must be hugely frustrating to have at least 2 former PM's (Blair and Major) chirping away in the background.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-may-accuses-blair-of-insulting-british-people-and-office-of-prime-minister-1.3732984?fbclid=IwAR0qyEpEKq6TVKv3AGHN1oPhy2b1a21QbwkA4VwmeziKT3Q4p7fZhybXfp8

I wonder if there is some sort of convention similar to the US where previous Prime Ministers refrain from criticising the incumbent. Ultimately though, she should listen to what they say and try to understand it instead of adopting an obstinate "Brexit means Brexit" attitude.

J Mysterio wrote: »

Bizarre suggestion from someone who should know better.

Depends. Say you run it as a three-way FPTP referendum. What happens if Remain wins with 35% of the vote while No deal takes 34% with the deal taking 31%? I like the French-style option where you run Remain vs Leave and then another referendum of Deal or no Deal.

Capt'n Midnight

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

137k want no deal, apparently queues at ports will focus EUs attention and agree to all their demands. The insanity of it all, Putin and his trolls must be rofling

We will save billions of pounds from our EU divorce payment as well as a similar amount from Civil Service and Govt costs. This money will be used to support our own country whilst we await the EU to talk to us to make deals more in our favour.

How long would it take the UK economy to loose £39Bn if the surplus of £28 of export of services to the UK starts drying up ? Or if there's delays, or extra costs on the import of £95Bn more than they export, of goods from the EU ? *

Stats https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851

* it's a trick question. It already happened. UK Govt is already down £26Bn a year in lost revenue due to the effects of triggering Article 50. After a year and a half the divorce bill has been overtaken by reality.

J Mysterio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have to say, I kinda agree with May here. It must be hugely frustrating to have at least 2 former PM's (Blair and Major) chirping away in the background.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-may-accuses-blair-of-insulting-british-people-and-office-of-prime-minister-1.3732984?fbclid=IwAR0qyEpEKq6TVKv3AGHN1oPhy2b1a21QbwkA4VwmeziKT3Q4p7fZhybXfp8

Nonsense. Blair and Major are entitled to their opinion. If May hadn't made such a hames of the last few years, i'm sure they would be more than happy to keep schtum.

The UK should listen to it's wizened elder statesmen. This is an existential crisis!

British prime minister Theresa May has accused Tony Blair of “insulting” the British people and the office of prime minister by “undermining” Brexit talks with calls for a second referendum.

The talks are over! The deal has been agreed and won't be renegotiated!

J Mysterio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Depends. Say you run it as a three-way FPTP referendum. What happens if Remain wins with 35% of the vote while No deal takes 34% with the deal taking 31%? I like the French-style option where you run Remain vs Leave and then another referendum of Deal or no Deal.

Offering no deal on the ballot is playing Russian Roulette (pun not intended). The people - largely uniformed still - are seemingly so vexed and tired of the EU and Brexit, they are likely to vote 'no deal' to bring this to a conclusion (and finally destroy Britain).