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N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

Stupido

NRA have this morning advertised for engineering consultancy to design medium to long term solution to the junction!

:):)

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Truckermal

Live at Three wrote: »

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

Yes I'm the same trying to get through the Tunnel coming from the west is taking longer every morning! I'm getting up earlier now trying to be through for 7am.

Bacchus

Live at Three wrote: »

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

There's usually a rise in traffic volume in Nov/Dec (in my experience). Between people running out of holidays at work (or simply not wanting to take holidays at this time of year) and Christmas closing in (which affects the evening rush hour more than the morning), it's just a busy time for traffic.

AugustusMinimus

Is there some work on site at the moment? Looks like there has been some earth movements on the north side of the junction.

Cork Trucker

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

Sometime after Christmas. Contractor appointed and everything so it shouldn't be too long

Bacchus

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea on the official start date for construction? Must be nearing now surely, clearance work aside of course which is already visible.

From the last email update...

Ground investigation works will continue across the entire site up until the Christmas break with target completion date in February 2019.

The site office should be completed too.

So, I'd expect March at earliest to see actual construction to begin.

hans aus dtschl

It looks like the site office is most of the way done, if not complete. Plenty "normal" vehicles outside it the last time I passed a few days ago.

Live at Three

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

marno21

Live at Three wrote: »

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

Yes.

Bacchus

Live at Three wrote: »

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

It think there were 2 or 3 accidents this morning that resulted in the car park that was the N25 this morning heading towards the tunnel. Huge tailbacks.

I think it's been brought up before alright that the Dunkettle upgrade will be great but it will no doubt just kick the can down the road in both directions (east/west). As it is, even when there aren't accidents by Rochestown, traffic is almost ground to a halt anyway dealing with merging traffic. And for anyone heading to Mahon, they'll just get to queue at the Mahon slip road for that much longer.

Live at Three wrote: »

On a side note...drivers who drive on the right hand lane coming off the n25 down to the tunnel, then break the red light to jump the queue and slip into the middle lane should be shot.

I see people breaking this red light every morning. Worse are the people who let them in, holding up all the people behind who had the manners not to skip the queue.

I've joined the ranks of the inside (leftmost) lane. My blood pressure can no longer handle the d*cks that cut in ahead of the middle lane to skip the queue, nor the muppets that allow it to happen. Too many times I've been behind some dope flicking through his phone, or some other dope doing her makeup, not paying attention to the traffic moving ahead of them and in slips a car from the right. What's worse, those d*cks have some sort of code where once one gets in they let in another of their "right lane" buddies and so on and so on, so one car quickly become 3 or 4 cars jumping ahead of you and you're stuck. Life on the left lane is a slow but steady (and peaceful) life.

CHealy

Live at Three wrote: »

Anyone else find the traffic gone worse here in recent months? I'm leaving home at the same time but getting into work later and later each morning...

Its always brutal in November and December, it will ease off a tiny bit again in mid January. This morning was a disaster, took me an hour to get from the stretch outside the Rochestown PH to work in Little Island.

Live at Three

Bacchus wrote: »

I've joined the ranks of the inside (leftmost) lane. My blood pressure can no longer handle the d*cks that cut in ahead of the middle lane to skip the queue, nor the muppets that allow it to happen. Too many times I've been behind some dope flicking through his phone, or some other dope doing her makeup, not paying attention to the traffic moving ahead of them and in slips a car from the right. What's worse, those d*cks have some sort of code where once one gets in they let in another of their "right lane" buddies and so on and so on, so one car quickly become 3 or 4 cars jumping ahead of you and you're stuck. Life on the left lane is a slow but steady (and peaceful) life.

I was a leftie for a while but I've settled now for middle of the road. I actually get satisfaction from blocking the queue jumpers from getting back in. Gives me a little lift in the mornings when I see them having to head back around the roundabout.

Chris_5339762

Live at Three wrote: »

Late for work for the second time this week due to accidents on the South Ring....it's some pain.
This has probably been debated here before but will the improved flow southbound at dunkettle 'push' the congestion along to the next pinch point, ie. Rochestown merging ramp?

Yes. Westbound along the N40 in the mornings will make absolutely no difference to the N25 eastbound as it'll just block up at the N28 merge as it does at the moment and will likely tail mack to Dunkettle daily... I reckon it might improve the M8 southbound a little in that it'll slowly keep moving rather than just stopped as now.

In the evenings, if the merging etc works... westbound on the N40 SHOULD be much much better. But it remains to be seen whether the Mahon merge starts to cause problems on the N40 as it does now.

Bacchus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes. Westbound along the N40 in the mornings will make absolutely no difference to the N25 eastbound as it'll just block up at the N28 merge as it does at the moment and will likely tail mack to Dunkettle daily... I reckon it might improve the M8 southbound a little in that it'll slowly keep moving rather than just stopped as now.

Actually I never even thought of the impact of the "free flowing" M8 southbound, heading west on N40. So we'll actually have M8 and N25 traffic merging at Dunkettle and then quickly after that the Mahon slip roads and then traffic merging from N28. That's going to be horrific.

AugustusMinimus

I’ve said it for years on here.

The Douglas flyover is the pinch point. They’ll hAve to get creative there to widen to 3 lanes.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’ve said it for years on here.

The Douglas flyover is the pinch point. They’ll hAve to get creative there to widen to 3 lanes.

I think the first straw to break the camel's back will be the fact that M8 and N40 traffic will use the new Little Island interchange. That baby's going right back through the tunnel. I expect a redesign pretty much immediately.

And who knows, maybe we'll even see the first proper attempt to reduce single occupancy car transport in the area below 95%.

CHealy

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’ve said it for years on here.

The Douglas flyover is the pinch point. They’ll hAve to get creative there to widen to 3 lanes.

Every single evening without fail I get a phantom stopage at this exact point, no crash, no breakdowns, just cars randomly stopping in the middle of the road because it veers off left around a small corner.

mydiscworld

When Dunkettle is upgraded, traffic will hit the Mahon junction quicker, so bigger queues down slip road and onto main road.

Anyone not going to Mahon will need to be in right hand lane or get caught in the tailbacks for slip road, leading to inevitable accidents

AugustusMinimus

People said making the Sars and Bandon roundabouts flyover wouldn’t affect traffic elsewhere. They were badly wrong.

It’s lead to significant traffic queueing going east before the Douglas flyover.

A whole rethink will be needed. NRR will be prioritised along with a train based park and ride in Glounthaune. Irish Rail have a huge train yard area beside Dunkettle which would be ideal for a new train stop with park and ride facilities. This would also help in allowing s more frequent train service.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

People said making the Sars and Bandon roundabouts flyover wouldn’t affect traffic elsewhere. They were badly wrong.

It’s lead to significant traffic queueing going east before the Douglas flyover.

A whole rethink will be needed. NRR will be prioritised along with a train based park and ride in Glounthaune. Irish Rail have a huge train yard area beside Dunkettle which would be ideal for a new train stop with park and ride facilities. This would also help in allowing s more frequent train service.

That train's very well used at present from what I can see. I think it's around 15 minute frequency at peak times. I don't think it's underperforming really.

A city as small as Cork possibly shouldn't be seeing >100k vehicles on a single road though, should it?

The big problem from what I can see is:
The big employment centres have been designed almost exclusively for car access. Public transport isn't really possible at present.
The commute from Carrigaline to Little Island, the commute from anywhere East/North of the tunnel to Ringaskiddy, the commute from Wilton/Ballincollig to Little Island/Carrigtwohill? It's all reliant on this one road/tunnel.

If there's an oil shortage, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't think there is any future transport plan other than "more cars through the tunnel".

snotboogie

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That train's very well used at present from what I can see. I think it's around 15 minute frequency at peak times. I don't think it's underperforming really.

A city as small as Cork possibly shouldn't be seeing >100k vehicles on a single road though, should it?

The big problem from what I can see is:
The big employment centres have been designed almost exclusively for car access. Public transport isn't really possible at present.
The commute from Carrigaline to Little Island, the commute from anywhere East/North of the tunnel to Ringaskiddy, the commute from Wilton/Ballincollig to Little Island/Carrigtwohill? It's all reliant on this one road/tunnel.

If there's an oil shortage, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't think there is any future transport plan other than "more cars through the tunnel".

That's another issue, the city isn't properly defined. There are two major employment centers in the "region"; one in the city centre and one around the harbour with various smaller pockets around Mahon, the Airport, Ballincollig etc. We currently treat these major employment hubs as separate non connected entities and it's going to remain a 50/50 split between council ownership of employment zones. It gets even worse in terms of living areas. Carrigaline is halfway between the two major employment areas but is administrated as country town rather than a vital suburb. You have about 400k people living and working within the completely non defined Cork metro area with little to no administrative planning and public services integration within the region.

hans aus dtschl

snotboogie wrote: »

You have about 400k people living and working within the completely non defined Cork metro area with little to no administrative planning and public services integration within the region.

Even after the boundary change next year this is still going to be the case.
I really don't know what can be done about it, no matter where you define the Cork urban/metropolitan region, the county council is going to try to build suburbia on the edge of it.

We're still going to be stuck with massive traffic through the Dunkettle Interchange. Even after this redesign I'm totally unconvinced it can take the traffic throughput, due to the Tivoli roundabout to the West, Little Island junction to the East and Mahon/Douglas to the South. This upgrade realistically won't change too much.

And from what I can see a Cork North Ring road is 10 years off at a minimum, so I expect the N40 to be gridlocked for the foreseeable future.

I'll say it again too that it's a shame also that when they were doing the Dunkettle Interchange there was no interest in doing a proper East-West cycling/walking route. We can argue about the fact that the tunnel should have provided for pedestrians/cyclists also but that's long in the past now.

marno21

DerMutt used post these but he seems to have taken a break so I will:

Latest update 07/12:

* Ground investigation works are continuing and remain on track for completion by early February 2019
* The archaelogical resolution works at the fulacht fia near the Gaelscoil should reach completion by Christmas
* Construction of the necessary access points into the site from the road network will continue up to Christmas

No disruption to traffic anticipated from any of the above

Roll on 2019

Gunner3629

CHealy wrote: »

Every single evening without fail I get a phantom stopage at this exact point, no crash, no breakdowns, just cars randomly stopping in the middle of the road because it veers off left around a small corner.

I've noticed this. Once you pass this point things go noticeably quicker until you get to Carr's Hill junction. Odd.

Gunner3629

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Even after the boundary change next year this is still going to be the case.
I really don't know what can be done about it, no matter where you define the Cork urban/metropolitan region, the county council is going to try to build suburbia on the edge of it.

We're still going to be stuck with massive traffic through the Dunkettle Interchange. Even after this redesign I'm totally unconvinced it can take the traffic throughput, due to the Tivoli roundabout to the West, Little Island junction to the East and Mahon/Douglas to the South. This upgrade realistically won't change too much.

And from what I can see a Cork North Ring road is 10 years off at a minimum, so I expect the N40 to be gridlocked for the foreseeable future.

I'll say it again too that it's a shame also that when they were doing the Dunkettle Interchange there was no interest in doing a proper East-West cycling/walking route. We can argue about the fact that the tunnel should have provided for pedestrians/cyclists also but that's long in the past now.

Wholeheartedly agree. The Dunkettle upgrade will undoubtedly help but realistically it will still over capacity and gridlock will continue to be a big issue. Ultimately 2 lanes in either direction on the N40 and through the JLT is not enough, particularly with the absence of any viable alternative routes for commuters M8 and N25 bound.

As we've seen so often lately, just one minor incident (breakdown, crash) causes tailbacks for miles and I can't see how that will change post upgrade.

On top of that, is there even room for a 3rd lane on the N40, I'm not sure there is.

Gunner3629

marno21 wrote: »

Sometime after Christmas. Contractor appointed and everything so it shouldn't be too long

Do we have any idea what the disruption will be like during the main construction phase?

grogi

Gunner3629 wrote: »

On top of that, is there even room for a 3rd lane on the N40, I'm not sure there is.

Sure it is - it is just a matter of cost. I have highlighted the part where you've already given one of possible answers...

marno21

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Do we have any idea what the disruption will be like during the main construction phase?

Unlikely to be too much disruption as it's a 3.5 year build.

There will mainly be disruption and closures at night with that timescale. Possibly a weekend closure but it's hard to tell yet.

hans aus dtschl

Gunner3629 wrote: »

the absence of any viable alternative routes for commuters M8 and N25 bound.

I know that ALL infrastructure investment is in a low place right now, but if there was even a half effort at doing sustainable transport correctly it would be so much better for everyone. I've said it before on here, I don't think it makes sense that a city the size of Cork should be getting that high a traffic count through the tunnel.

Gunner3629

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I know that ALL infrastructure investment is in a low place right now, but if there was even a half effort at doing sustainable transport correctly it would be so much better for everyone. I've said it before on here, I don't think it makes sense that a city the size of Cork should be getting that high a traffic count through the tunnel.

Definitely too much traffic through the tunnel. The designers and planners would argue 'What is the alternative is considering the topology'.

Its not even the lack of infrastructure, its the lack of planning for the future and acting on those plans. We've seen where recommendations were made in the past two decades but never carried out, thus we are where we are today.