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N25 - Carrigtwohill to Midleton [route options published]

marno21

This is finally back on the table, and not before time, with the talks of the new IKEA store in Carrigtwohill.

This project will consist of the closure of all direct accesses onto the N25 between Carrigtwohill and Midleton, and the construction of parallel service roads for access instead. It will also have a new grade seperated junction between Midleton and Carrigtwohill

Cork RDO link here: http://www.corkrdo.ie/n25-carrigtwohill-midleton-interchanges-2/

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Bacchus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Castlemartyr and Killeagh are at least wide enough, even though they cause dreadful tailbacks thesedays.

I don't know about Kileagh but it'll be interesting to see once the bridge is redone how the traffic flow through the village will be. With the new road markings gone down last week there seems to be an effort to stop local traffic trying to turn off into their estates from holding up a queue of traffic. It's a small measure but I've seen it plenty of times where all it takes is a couple of cars trying to get across traffic to hold up the whole show. If they can improve the management of cars across the bridge (particularly those turning right for Ladysbridge/Garryvoe)even just a little bit it could help flow too.

Obviously I don't think the above will solve the issue of traffic bottlenecks in Castlemartyr, but they might just ease it a little.

Chris_5339762

Youghal was prioritised back in the day because it was a ridiculous bottleneck, far worse than Castlemartyr or Killeagh currently is. Also, with the one way routes and the city gate ( https://goo.gl/maps/uvMWYezG8nA2 ) , anything larger than a small lorry going to Rosslare for the ferry, could barely fit through it. Once the hairpin bends at The Ring in Dungarvan got done back in the late 80s, this became suddenly a major issue and was fixed quick-smart.

Castlemartyr and Killeagh are at least wide enough, even though they cause dreadful tailbacks thesedays.

highwaymaniac

Gunner3629 wrote: »

I can see some advantages to that idea for commuters in Waterford, as they'd have the M8 from Fermoy onwards, but that wouldn't help anyone in East Cork and that is where most of the N25 commuter traffic originates - Youghal, Killeagh, Castlemarytr, Ballycotton, Ballymacoda, etc.

Its similar to the argument with the Cork-Limerick road. Do you make a motorway from Cork to Limerick via Mallow or use the existing M8 road as a partial route to Limerick and create a motorway from Mitchelstown to Limerick via Hospital. The latter being more cost effective but wouldn't serve the North Cork traveller quite so well.

I suppose that's the crux of it, the national road network is supposed to be for strategic traffic, the problem is that strategic traffic numbers aren't high enough to get the cost benefit ratio high enough. The main benefits derive from journey time savings in the Cost benefit assessment. Hence majority of all schemes rely on commuter traffic to make economic sense, hence piecemeal road upgrades being built to cater predominantly for commuter traffic.

The N25 upgrades if progressed should be heavily funded by development contributions.

Gunner3629

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Can a 2+2 be retrofitted to the youghal bypass?? Doesn't look like at the bridges??

Still think consideration should be given to fermoy-dungarvan instead of N25 upgrades to cater for commuter traffic, just have different tiwns expanding. Especially given the constraint of the youghal blackwater bridge. No point having dual carriageway all the way to youghal and then have that horrific alignment for a few kms including accident blackspot at grange crossroads.

I can see some advantages to that idea for commuters in Waterford, as they'd have the M8 from Fermoy onwards, but that wouldn't help anyone in East Cork and that is where most of the N25 commuter traffic to Cork originates - Youghal, Killeagh, Castlemarytr, Ballycotton, Ballymacoda, etc.

Its similar to the argument with the Cork-Limerick road. Do you make a motorway from Cork to Limerick via Mallow or use the existing M8 road as a partial route to Limerick and create a motorway from Mitchelstown to Limerick via Hospital. The latter being more cost effective but wouldn't serve the North Cork traveller quite so well.

highwaymaniac

As AugustusMinimus was alluding to, the Youghal bypass was considered to be correctly built in 2002. There was no 2+2 back then, it was wide two lane, which the Youghal bypass is.

Ideally there should be a Midleton-Kinsalebeg project including bypassing the Lakeview roundabout, bypassing Killeagh/Castlemartyr on a new alignment, upgrading the Youghal bypass and providing a new crossing of the River Blackwater.

Can a 2+2 be retrofitted to the youghal bypass?? Doesn't look like at the bridges??

Still think consideration should be given to fermoy-dungarvan instead of N25 upgrades to cater for commuter traffic, just have different towns expanding. Especially given the constraint of the youghal blackwater bridge. Little point having dual carriageway all the way to youghal and then have that horrific alignment for a few kms including accident blackspot at grange crossroads.

marno21

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Which is utterly disappointing considering the time and money spent on the previous plans.

It also means that any new development is even further away from deliverance. Which effectively means any improvements to N25 between Midleton and Youghal are even further away as they'd never do both simultaneously.

TII have stated that the Midleton-Youghal project will be considered after 2027. It was not included in the 2018-2027 National Development Plan.

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Very interesting. It has always been a lower priority route and looks set to continue in that fashion. East Cork being discriminated against, considering Macroom and Ballyvourney will shortly be by-passed on the West side.

Political power pushed Macroom-Ballyvourney ahead

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Not surprised at all. Atleast it looks like they have room for 2+2 there without too much work.

As AugustusMinimus was alluding to, the Youghal bypass was considered to be correctly built in 2002. There was no 2+2 back then, it was wide two lane, which the Youghal bypass is.

Ideally there should be a Midleton-Kinsalebeg project including bypassing the Lakeview roundabout, bypassing Killeagh/Castlemartyr on a new alignment, upgrading the Youghal bypass and providing a new crossing of the River Blackwater.

Gunner3629

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That bypass now needs to be updated to 2+2 only 15 years after completion.

Not surprised at all. Atleast it looks like they have room for 2+2 there without too much work.

AugustusMinimus

Gunner3629 wrote: »

The bypass of Youghal is mostly one lane, and is a much longer route than either intended bypass of Killeagh or Castlemartr. Why would the cost benefit ratio be any different?

That bypass now needs to be updated to 2+2 only 15 years after completion.

Gunner3629

marno21 wrote: »

The 1998 Road Needs Study stated that a dual carriageway was required from Midleton to Youghal to deal with traffic levels. It's now almost 2019, the year that study focus period ends [1998-2019] and the route isn't even selected for this yet.

The 1998 Road Needs Study effectively recommended a new road all the way from Macroom to Youghal. Since then, only Ovens-Midleton (where most of the Dunkettle-Midleton section was already done) is complete. The rest isn't even in planning.

Very interesting. It has always been a lower priority route and looks set to continue in that fashion. East Cork being discriminated against, considering Macroom and Ballyvourney will shortly be by-passed on the West side.

Gunner3629

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It simply won’t happen. It would fail on any cost benefit analysis with the bypasses being over capacity straight away when built.

The bypass of Youghal is mostly one lane, and is a much longer route than either intended bypass of Killeagh or Castlemartr. Why would the cost benefit ratio be any different?

Gunner3629

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Also I read an article today that they have to go right back to Project Appraisal for the Carrigtwohill - Midleton section, as per the new NRA/TII guidelines.

Which is utterly disappointing considering the time and money spent on the previous plans.

It also means that any new development is even further away from deliverance. Which effectively means any improvements to N25 between Midleton and Youghal are even further away as they'd never do both simultaneously.

marno21

Gunner3629 wrote: »

It would certainly be the best solution but it seems priorities are on Carrigtwohill-Midleton, even though they already have Dual carriage.

The 1998 Road Needs Study stated that a dual carriageway was required from Midleton to Youghal to deal with traffic levels. It's now almost 2019, the year that study focus period ends [1998-2019] and the route isn't even selected for this yet.

The 1998 Road Needs Study effectively recommended a new road all the way from Macroom to Youghal. Since then, only Ovens-Midleton (where most of the Dunkettle-Midleton section was already done) is complete. The rest isn't even in planning.

AugustusMinimus

Gunner3629 wrote: »

I'm not saying I think a dual carriage isn't needed, what I'm saying is I'd take the village by-passes over no improvement at all. Which seems what is going to happen - nothing.

It simply won’t happen. It would fail on any cost benefit analysis with the bypasses being over capacity straight away when built.

Gunner3629

marno21 wrote: »

Traffic volumes on the N25 Midleton-Youghal are currently above the traffic limits for single carriageway upgrades. The only solution for this stretch is a new dual carriageway replacement.

It would certainly be the best solution but it seems priorities are on Carrigtwohill-Midleton, even though they already have Dual carriage.

Gunner3629

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It would be utter insanity to build 2 bypasses with dualling. What an insane waste of money thatd be.

HQDC all the way to Youghal is badly needed.

I'm not saying I think a dual carriage isn't needed, what I'm saying is I'd take the village by-passes over no improvement at all. Which seems what is going to happen - nothing.

AugustusMinimus

Gunner3629 wrote: »

We don't necessarily need Midleton to Youghal dual carrigageway as much as we need Killeagh and Castlemartyr by-pass.

And in actual fact, the by-pass routes for both would be shorter than the current road layout.

It would be utter insanity to build 2 bypasses with dualling. What an insane waste of money thatd be.

HQDC all the way to Youghal is badly needed.

Gunner3629

highwaymaniac wrote: »

None of those schemes will be effective without a north ring road should only be 3 junctions on that N22, M20, M8. I hope the south ring is never widened to three lanes would be a very bad investment like the M50 widening.

Exactly, even if you had 3 lanes on the South ring, the bottleneck will continue to be the tunnel with only 2 lanes in each direction.

marno21

Gunner3629 wrote: »

We don't necessarily need Midleton to Youghal dual carrigageway as much as we need Killeagh and Castlemartyr by-pass.

And in actual fact, the by-pass routes for both would be shorter than the current road layout.

Traffic volumes on the N25 Midleton-Youghal are currently above the traffic limits for single carriageway upgrades. The only solution for this stretch is a new dual carriageway replacement.

Gunner3629

marno21 wrote: »

Carrigtwohill-Midleton is in the NDP because it's cheap, passes lots of tests on paper and deals with an overcapacity section of the N25 on paper by removing safety issues and improving flow.

The lack of Midleton-Youghal is disappointing but not surprising.

We don't necessarily need Midleton to Youghal dual carrigageway as much as we need Killeagh and Castlemartyr by-pass.

And in actual fact, the by-pass routes for both would be shorter than the current road layout.

omicron

Bacchus wrote: »

I agree that fixing Lakeview just moves the problem down the road but I don't think it exacerbates it. Also, naive as this may be, you have to consider upgrades such as Dunkettle, the N28, the N25, Lakeview flyover as part of an overall plan to improve traffic flow. The problem with the big picture though is that the stretch from Midleton to Youghal doesn't seem to have a plan... and westbound from Dunkettle is going to be a car park.

Personally, in fantasy world, I'd rather keep that stretch as it is, stop focusing on putting dual carriageways everywhere, and focus on rail links to encourage drivers off the road and onto trains going from Waterford/Dungarvan/Youghal to Midleton/Carrigtwohill/Little Island/City. That'll never happen though

A large portion of traffic stuck at Lakeview every morning is going to Midleton/carrigtwohill/little island, it's hardly fair to keep traffic sitting there every morning when it can be cheaply fixed just to not add some traffic to dunkettle.

highwaymaniac

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There were 3 further junctions in planning.

Poulavone, Hollyhill and R614. In truth that’s not many junctions. Plenty of space between each junction.

If there isn’t a junction for Ballincollig at Poulavone how do you deal with local traffic given the current section between N22 and Poulavone will be integrated into this scheme.

Replied on the N40 NRR thread, don't want to drag this one off topic.

AugustusMinimus

highwaymaniac wrote: »

None of those schemes will be effective without a north ring road should only be 3 junctions on that N22, M20, M8. I hope the south ring is never widened to three lanes would be a very bad investment like the M50 widening.

There were 3 further junctions in planning.

Poulavone, Hollyhill and R614. In truth that’s not many junctions. Plenty of space between each junction.

If there isn’t a junction for Ballincollig at Poulavone how do you deal with local traffic given the current section between N22 and Poulavone will be integrated into this scheme.

highwaymaniac

Bacchus wrote: »

I agree that fixing Lakeview just moves the problem down the road but I don't think it exacerbates it. Also, naive as this may be, you have to consider upgrades such as Dunkettle, the N28, the N25, Lakeview flyover as part of an overall plan to improve traffic flow. The problem with the big picture though is that the stretch from Midleton to Youghal doesn't seem to have a plan... and westbound from Dunkettle is going to be a car park.

Personally, in fantasy world, I'd rather keep that stretch as it is, stop focusing on putting dual carriageways everywhere, and focus on rail links to encourage drivers off the road and onto trains going from Waterford/Dungarvan/Youghal to Midleton/Carrigtwohill/Little Island/City. That'll never happen though

None of those schemes will be effective without a north ring road should only be 3 junctions on that N22, M20, M8. I hope the south ring is never widened to three lanes would be a very bad investment like the M50 widening.

AugustusMinimus

Bacchus wrote: »

I agree that fixing Lakeview just moves the problem down the road but I don't think it exacerbates it. Also, naive as this may be, you have to consider upgrades such as Dunkettle, the N28, the N25, Lakeview flyover as part of an overall plan to improve traffic flow. The problem with the big picture though is that the stretch from Midleton to Youghal doesn't seem to have a plan... and westbound from Dunkettle is going to be a car park.

Personally, in fantasy world, I'd rather keep that stretch as it is, stop focusing on putting dual carriageways everywhere, and focus on rail links to encourage drivers off the road and onto trains going from Waterford/Dungarvan/Youghal to Midleton/Carrigtwohill/Little Island/City. That'll never happen though

Waterford and Dungarvan certainly won’t happen given that the Waterford line ran through Lismore and Mallow before going south to Cork. The Dungarvan to Mallow section was sold off to farmers in the 60s.

Youghal was always a dead end for trains.

Bacchus

highwaymaniac wrote: »

The road network in Cork City and surrounds is over capacity, removing a choke point like lakeview is only going to exarcerbate the problem as will this scheme as well as the M28.

I agree that fixing Lakeview just moves the problem down the road but I don't think it exacerbates it. Also, naive as this may be, you have to consider upgrades such as Dunkettle, the N28, the N25, Lakeview flyover as part of an overall plan to improve traffic flow. The problem with the big picture though is that the stretch from Midleton to Youghal doesn't seem to have a plan... and westbound from Dunkettle is going to be a car park.

Personally, in fantasy world, I'd rather keep that stretch as it is, stop focusing on putting dual carriageways everywhere, and focus on rail links to encourage drivers off the road and onto trains going from Waterford/Dungarvan/Youghal to Midleton/Carrigtwohill/Little Island/City. That'll never happen though

highwaymaniac

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Midleton - Youghal AADT = 16,000 in 2017 but it feels far busier than that.

I heard somewhere that Lakeview was originally supposed to have been more than it is, but there were problems with the CPOs on that line of houses to the east of it. Thats all I know though, and I always say that the Midleton bypass, for the 1980s, was an exceptionally high quality build for what was probably not a massive bottleneck back then.

Also I read an article today that they have to go right back to Project Appraisal for the Carrigtwohill - Midleton section, as per the new NRA/TII guidelines.

16,000 is very high for a single carriageway, its way over the design capacity of 11,600 (level of service D).

And rightly so, they will have a hard time getting the business case to stand up on this project, will need the politicians if this is going to get built. Dare I say but based on the N40, which this scheme is just an extension of, and the accident induced traffic chaos, (case in point this week) by adding another junction this scheme could actually reduce journey times in long term!

The road network in Cork City and surrounds is over capacity, removing a choke point like lakeview is only going to exarcerbate the problem as will this scheme as well as the M28.

Chris_5339762

Midleton - Youghal AADT = 16,000 in 2017 but it feels far busier than that.

I heard somewhere that Lakeview was originally supposed to have been more than it is, but there were problems with the CPOs on that line of houses to the east of it. Thats all I know though, and I always say that the Midleton bypass, for the 1980s, was an exceptionally high quality build for what was probably not a massive bottleneck back then.

Also I read an article today that they have to go right back to Project Appraisal for the Carrigtwohill - Midleton section, as per the new NRA/TII guidelines.

marno21

According to TII Midleton-Youghal will be operating at around 100% of capacity in 2030. Which I think is daft as it's clearly operating above 120% of capacity right now.

FGR

Lakeview and Castlemartyr have become as bottlenecked as they were during the boom. Traffic is often backed up in both locations at 7:30am which is crazy.

I remember it being said as far back as 20 years ago that the dual carriageway should have continued from lakeview to beyond Killeagh. It's sad to think that there won't be anything done here for at least another 10 years.

Considering that Limerick is soon going to be the second most connected city on the island (with the M20 and massive N24 upgrades) and Wexford has New Ross/Enniscorthy bypasses being built - Does the lack of front bench politicians from East Cork/Waterford have anything to do with the lack of investment on this route?

JupiterKid

This is one of the oldest sections of dual carriageway in the country, dating from circa 1970. It is not a long section and should be easily upgraded. The main issue is accesses to private dwellings on the road.

But IMO much more pressing is bypassing Killeagh and Castlemartyr, both bottlenecks and upgrading the Youghal bypass to 2+2 DC as it has tiny sections of D1 at the junctions which IMO can be confusing and even dangerous.