Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

Any reason for ground mounting? It's more expensive, takes up more space, more prone to damage.

If you're going down the DIY ground mount route you'd probably be as well off go with a standard cheaper inverter.
Use an AC battery storage system or a DC one that can work with your existing inverter.
The hybrid ones are very expensive for now as they are the latest and greatest, regular string inverters can be had very cheaply by comparison.

unkel wrote: »

Total production is about right for a south facing setup in most decent solar areas in Ireland. A lot of that will not be used though. A quick calc to show what you are up against. Figures also plucked out of the air, but you get the idea, you can change my parameters etc.:

Let's say your average solar production hours over the day are 10AM to 6PM (you get a little bit more in summer, but a lot less in winter) and during those hours the average probability of producing 400W or more during all those hours is maybe 60% (when it is overcast or when it rains, you won't make 400W even in the middle of the day). That means:

8 hours per day * 365 days * 60% * 0.4kW base load * 16c/kWh = saving of €112 per year. Throw in another €20 or €30 of savings for the times your system does produce, but less than your base load and you are talking realistic savings without actively managing any applications, so a payback of closer to 30 years. Pump for solar thermal uses very little power.

You're not alone there

At least your other half will run the machines when the sun shines, which will make above figures a bit better!

So the plan at the moment is to put the panels and hybrid inverter in w/o grant due to roof restrictions etc. on the grant.

Then a couple of months later to add the battery using the grant.

Need to figure out costs of BER etc. but I think it will make sense.

Obviously the EV is on the cards maybe the year after next too.

Will look to install an Eddi myself hopefully or prepare for it.

And also do the "back up system" wiring. For lights and boiler pump.

GaryCocs wrote: »

Have a report on one of the guys 4kw set up: 310 units per month on average 3kw set up would then be: 232 units maybe? Don't know how much would be wasted out of that?

Total production is about right for a south facing setup in most decent solar areas in Ireland. A lot of that will not be used though. A quick calc to show what you are up against. Figures also plucked out of the air, but you get the idea, you can change my parameters etc.:

Let's say your average solar production hours over the day are 10AM to 6PM (you get a little bit more in summer, but a lot less in winter) and during those hours the average probability of producing 400W or more during all those hours is maybe 60% (when it is overcast or when it rains, you won't make 400W even in the middle of the day). That means:

8 hours per day * 365 days * 60% * 0.4kW base load * 16c/kWh = saving of €112 per year. Throw in another €20 or €30 of savings for the times your system does produce, but less than your base load and you are talking realistic savings without actively managing any applications, so a payback of closer to 30 years. Pump for solar thermal uses very little power.

GaryCocs wrote: »

Day rate, night rate argument I get but I cant get herself to do two washes at night

You're not alone there

At least your other half will run the machines when the sun shines, which will make above figures a bit better!

unkel wrote: »

Reducing your bill by half even with a battery sounds optimistic to me. Without a battery you can forget about it, unless you micro manage it (as in switch on appliances consecutively around the middle of the day when it is sunny, etc.)

What's roughly your calculations / assumptions? A lot of people fail to realise that when they run an appliance that uses 1kWh on solar, that the saving is only 8c, not 16c (as they could have run that appliance at night at the lower rate). Same for charging a car, and even worse for heating water...

Soooo finger in the air calculations, have a resting load of 400w.

Month = 214 units @ 0.1784 (Day rate => 9 to 23hrs) = €48 per month / €576 per year.
Have a report on one of the guys 4kw set up: 310 units per month on average
3kw set up would then be: 232 units maybe? Don't know how much would be wasted out of that? Solar thermal pump uses a bit when it's sunny, that would be written off etc. etc.

Day rate, night rate argument I get but I cant get herself to do two washes at night, best case scenario we have one wash done in the morning on night rate. (we're averaging 6 or 7 a week, all on fri, sat, sun, all very weather dependent, if the sun is shining she'll want to do them as it could be raining the next day). Setting up a dehumidifier and drying room too which should sort out drying clothes if required overnight. Dishwasher is already night-rate.

Reducing your bill by half even with a battery sounds optimistic to me. Without a battery you can forget about it, unless you micro manage it (as in switch on appliances consecutively around the middle of the day when it is sunny, etc.)

What's roughly your calculations / assumptions? A lot of people fail to realise that when they run an appliance that uses 1kWh on solar, that the saving is only 8c, not 16c (as they could have run that appliance at night at the lower rate). Same for charging a car, and even worse for heating water...

KCross

GaryCocs wrote: »

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years

Is my worst case too optimistic?

So, the question is, how did you calculate that you would half your electricity bill?

Sounds WAY too optimistic to me.

EDIT: When you say your usage is €900 is that the total bill cost or the kWh cost? If its the total bill cost you are definitely out in your calculations as a decent portion of your bill is PSO level and standing charges, which will not change with the addition of Solar.
Even if its €900 for kWh's, its still too optimistic, imo.

So my sums to work out if this is a good idea.

Based on: €900 per year usage, cost €4300 for panels inc hybrid inverter (battery to follow) for 3kw system.

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years (based on electricity prices not increasing). If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 8.5 years

Best case: Reduce our electricity bill by 3/4 saving €675 a year, payback would be 6 years If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 5.5 years

Guessing it would work out somewhere in the middle. Is my worst case too optimistic?

Price Increases on Electricity based on: https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/crops/EnergyInIreland2011Report.PDF

Any FIT at all will help uptake by domestic and small commercial producers and has potential to be very light on administrative and bureaucratic overhead.
Look at people on this thread considering battery storage for returns that are realistically less than that which would be achieved by even a 4c/kWh FIT.

There are certainly concerns about PV on domestic homes in other jurisdictions where they have high penetration. Anecdotally, plenty of people in rural areas in the UK have been refused permission for PV. It's usually due to sharing a transformer with another customer or customers with lots of PV. Almost trivially easy to completely mitigate nowadays though if the will is there.

We're a country set up for the benefit of vested interest groups so a FIT may be a long way off.
We should open an international centre of excellence on regulatory capture, it's almost an art form here.
The coal lobby in Australia is doing it's best to scupper (or at least slow) adoption of solar there, vested interests here are far more slick in how they operate.

With regard to PV producing when networks are lightly loaded, that's old school thinking to an extent. In the medium term the networks will move towards being loaded more heavily when energy is cheapest.
PV production will be ideal for charging EVs parked up during the working day too, most production will occur during hours that the majority of vehicles are parked.

antoinolachtnai

Nobody is worried about export from clusters of private homes really. The savings in TUoS and DUoS are there but a bit ephemeral. PV only really produces when the networks are quite lightly loaded. Sure, small producers should get the same as big producers.

Will the rates large producers will get be enough to incentivise small producers?

Market price plus any green subsidies that are offered to large scale green energy suppliers would be a good starting point for FIT. There should be some benefit to consumers also due to the savings in TUOS and other charges due to the local consumption of export. We're a long way off needing to worry about overall export from clusters of private homes.

antoinolachtnai

Well, after 2021 you will have to have access to the settlement to sell your electricity under EU law, whatever the government says or does.

The only problem is that we will be paid very little for solar. It is just worth very little.

It is definitely true that if you pay a home producer more than the market price for the electricity, then other customers who can't afford their own solar will have to pay the difference.

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

It was discussed on Tuesday

I didnt watch but the feedback was that they do not want private house getting FiT. THey are using the excuse that people who get FiT will increase the price for people without FiT.....which is a load of bulls**t

They released something about trying to do it for small business but that again is a load of bulls**t.

Too many jobs for the boys in ESB etc

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I dont support this party, can't even remember contacting him but I must have at one stage

You contacted us previously in regard to environmental issues.

We would like to update you in regard to the Sinn Féin Microgeneration Support Scheme Bill which will come before the Dáil this coming Tuesday 27th November.

This bill aims to establish a feed-in tariff for electricity exported to the grid from small scale generation. We hope all parties can support the bill as we believe that small scale generation must form part of the wide portfolio of renewable energy sources we need going forward.

If you would like to receive further contact from us and our environmental policies please let us know.

Is mise le meas,

Brian Stanley TD

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

That's well and good if the installing company and indeed Pylontech are around in 5 years.
Personally I can think of plenty of better ways to spend €1400
I stand by my position that battery storage at this point is only viable as a means to get the additional €1600 of grant aid to those for whom this is applicable.

air wrote: »

(excluding the grant admittedly)

The grant makes all the difference. It's a nice system to get "officially" installed for just €1300. Not so much for the guts of €2000 and you having to do your own DIY install.

air wrote: »

The warranty doesn't sound too promising.

The written warranty is not really relevant. If you buy from an SEAI approved Irish installer, it will have to comply with the Sale of Goods Act. If the battery fails after say 5 years, the supplier should get it fixed, should replace it or should issue you a full refund and if the they don't play ball, the small claims court will find in your favour.

So the usable capacity is 2.15kWh and the lifetime cycle cost is similar to the retail price of electricity (excluding the grant admittedly). The warranty doesn't sound too promising.
I just can't see the justification for residential storage at these prices unless you need and get backup / off grid capability as well.

conor_mc

Interesting blog on the plyontech battery warranty fwiw unkel.

https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/homeowner/solar-storage-warranty-powerwall-pylontech-powervault

rolion wrote: »

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

I have no intention of buying these parts and fitting them myself. Sure it is cheaper to get an Irish SEAI approved installer do it

rolion

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

nice storage unit for retrofit systems designs.

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

conor_mc

GaryCocs wrote: »

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

Read one blog post today, gave ~98% efficiency on one leg, followed by ~95% on the second, for a net of 93% or so. Can’t remember the inverter in question just now though.

Sure. The biggest loss is from sun to Solar PV though, you lose 80-85% on that bit even before it goes into the inverter

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

KCross wrote: »

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Maybe it is. I've no doubt the battery will be empty every evening before the night rate comes in. And I've no doubt the battery will be fully discharged every morning before any useful solar PV comes in

The charging / discharging the battery with PV during the day is the great unknown

I thought my figures were already reasonably prudent, but let's say I can only charge half a cycle during the day on average (and not one full cycle). In that case you would be talking about a payback time of about 10 years

And remember the payback time gets better in the likely scenarios that I will add more PV, that I will add more (cheaper) batteries and that electricity prices will increase

And the total initial investment is just €1200-€1400. Not a huge risk to be taking.

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Allowing for losses and battery degradation 7-10 years sounds reasonable. Battery will have 10yrs warranty so your covered there.

You would be very much the exception with two cycles per day.

See if you can get a quote that is €1400 net to you is the next hurdle!

Brecken Tart Newscast wrote: »

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?

I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?

TIA

PM Sent, as I said in the pm, a lot of these guys would have the equipment for doing the ground work so it suits everyone involved if you know someone with a digger

conor_mc wrote: »

By overhead, do they mean decent standards perchance? Or is that too cynical???

I would be very cynical myself but I've heard it from three different suppliers now. To be honest I don't know enough about things but two of these guys were recommended by third parties with no interest either way.

uck51js9zml2yt

GaryCocs wrote: »

Few quotes in:

4.2kWp kitted to 2.4kWh battery storage
14 x Bisol 300w Monocrystalline modules (All black modules)
Van DerValk Ground Mount System
Santon Fire Safety Switch
Santon Switch Gear
Sofar 4.0kWp Inverter kitted to 2.4Kwh Pylon Tech Battery storage system
Costing
€9550(inclusive of VAT)
€3800 (SEAI Grant)
€5750 Final cost after grant incentive
NOTE: You will need to have a foundation laid for the ground mount structure and ducting from the PV system to the house

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?

I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?

TIA