Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

£1299+VAT is €1750 close enough, you also need to get it shipped from the UK - say another €60
I'd imagine the SEAI installer will want at least €500 out of it to call out and install plus handle the administration and allow for overheads etc.
Which makes me think the coat to you is more likely to be closer to €1400.
At 8c margin between day and night rate, that's 17,500kWh to recover your investment, or 7291 cycles to 100% discharge.

Double the amount to 16c to assume it's all charged with PV and discharged to house loads during day rate and I still can't see it stacking up to be honest.

I've ignored charge and discharge efficiencies, opportunity cost and the chance of any failure before it has paid for itself to help the business case.

Few quotes in:

4.2kWp kitted to 2.4kWh battery storage
14 x Bisol 300w Monocrystalline modules (All black modules)
Van DerValk Ground Mount System
Santon Fire Safety Switch
Santon Switch Gear
Sofar 4.0kWp Inverter kitted to 2.4Kwh Pylon Tech Battery storage system
Costing
€9550(inclusive of VAT)
€3800 (SEAI Grant)
€5750 Final cost after grant incentive
NOTE: You will need to have a foundation laid for the ground mount structure and ducting from the PV system to the house

1 3.6 kw system including Panels
5 kw hybrid inverter
Brackets buckets
Battery and all the necessary components
Cables wires etc for the pv side
@ €4620 plus vat
Fitting to garage wiring board
Etc 800 circa

Note: This is one is not going the grant route

3.6 kw system with inverter ground mounted
System €2800 plus vat
Fitting probably €600 plus vat

Note: This is one is not going the grant route

Waiting on a few more to come back to me.

Torn between going the grant and getting the battery or just putting up a few panels.

Few people are saying to me that the grant is adding a lot more overhead to the install etc. that is unnecessary and costs the customer more.

Waiting on a couple more.

conor_mc

By overhead, do they mean decent standards perchance? Or is that too cynical???

air wrote: »

£1299+VAT is €1750 close enough, you also need to get it shipped from the UK - say another €60
I'd imagine the SEAI installer will want at least €500 out of it to call out and install plus handle the administration and allow for overheads etc.
Which makes me think the coat to you is more likely to be closer to €1400.

Agreed about €1200-€1400 would be in the ballpark

Now lets take this over a 7 year period. I can charge the 2.4kWh battery up once a night with night rate. This gives me:

7 years * 365 days * 1 * 2.4kWh * 0.08 = €490

I can also charge it up between 0.0 times (very bad day in winter) and theoretically 2.5 times (very good day in summer) with PV. Let's say on average 1 time a day, so 7 * 365 * 1 * 2.4kWh * 0.16 = €980

(note: my base load is high now because of a hobby, but let's presume it will only be average from say next summer)

That's a total of €1470, so give or take a few losses, a pay back period of roughly 7 years? The hardware should last a good bit longer than that, even the battery and once batteries get cheaper I can just add them. It is also likely that I will be adding PV

Seems like a decent proposition? My opportunity costs of money are about zero and I do not have to borrow money for this.

KCross

Your calculations assume you can charge/discharge the battery fully twice per day. I think that’s a very tall order and it equates to probably 50% of an average houses yearly consumption.

That will be very hard to achieve in reality unless you are really managing your hobby to utilise it.

KCross wrote: »

Your calculations assume you can charge/discharge the battery fully twice per day.

Yes, once with night rate and on average once with PV

KCross wrote: »

it equates to probably 50% of an average houses yearly consumption.

Yes, a bit less than half

KCross wrote: »

I think that’s a very tall order

KCross wrote: »

That will be very hard to achieve in reality

Maybe it is. I've no doubt the battery will be empty every evening before the night rate comes in. And I've no doubt the battery will be fully discharged every morning before any useful solar PV comes in

The charging / discharging the battery with PV during the day is the great unknown

I thought my figures were already reasonably prudent, but let's say I can only charge half a cycle during the day on average (and not one full cycle). In that case you would be talking about a payback time of about 10 years

And remember the payback time gets better in the likely scenarios that I will add more PV, that I will add more (cheaper) batteries and that electricity prices will increase

And the total initial investment is just €1200-€1400. Not a huge risk to be taking.

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GaryCocs wrote: »

Few quotes in:

4.2kWp kitted to 2.4kWh battery storage
14 x Bisol 300w Monocrystalline modules (All black modules)
Van DerValk Ground Mount System
Santon Fire Safety Switch
Santon Switch Gear
Sofar 4.0kWp Inverter kitted to 2.4Kwh Pylon Tech Battery storage system
Costing
€9550(inclusive of VAT)
€3800 (SEAI Grant)
€5750 Final cost after grant incentive
NOTE: You will need to have a foundation laid for the ground mount structure and ducting from the PV system to the house

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?

I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?

TIA

conor_mc wrote: »

By overhead, do they mean decent standards perchance? Or is that too cynical???

I would be very cynical myself but I've heard it from three different suppliers now. To be honest I don't know enough about things but two of these guys were recommended by third parties with no interest either way.

Brecken Tart Newscast wrote: »

Gary..Could you pm me who quoted you please?

I'm looking at the possibility of gettiing a ground mounted system.
Do you need to get the foundations done yourself or will they do it?

TIA

PM Sent, as I said in the pm, a lot of these guys would have the equipment for doing the ground work so it suits everyone involved if you know someone with a digger

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Maybe it is. I've no doubt the battery will be empty every evening before the night rate comes in. And I've no doubt the battery will be fully discharged every morning before any useful solar PV comes in

The charging / discharging the battery with PV during the day is the great unknown

I thought my figures were already reasonably prudent, but let's say I can only charge half a cycle during the day on average (and not one full cycle). In that case you would be talking about a payback time of about 10 years

And remember the payback time gets better in the likely scenarios that I will add more PV, that I will add more (cheaper) batteries and that electricity prices will increase

And the total initial investment is just €1200-€1400. Not a huge risk to be taking.

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Allowing for losses and battery degradation 7-10 years sounds reasonable. Battery will have 10yrs warranty so your covered there.

You would be very much the exception with two cycles per day.

See if you can get a quote that is €1400 net to you is the next hurdle!

KCross wrote: »

True, not a big investment and if you are sure of the two cycles per day your figures look in the right ball park although you haven’t included the extra cost of a hybrid inverter, that needs to be paid for too.

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

Sure. The biggest loss is from sun to Solar PV though, you lose 80-85% on that bit even before it goes into the inverter

conor_mc

GaryCocs wrote: »

Just wondering about it from an efficiency perspective.

Solar - DC -> Inverter to AC - AC - > Inverter to DC - DC -> Battery

Would there be much losses?

Read one blog post today, gave ~98% efficiency on one leg, followed by ~95% on the second, for a net of 93% or so. Can’t remember the inverter in question just now though.

rolion

unkel wrote: »

Nope, no need for a hybrid inverter. The Sofar ME3000SP energy storage inverter(linky) sits on the AC side, connected to the battery. Both completely independent of any solar PV setup. You can use it without any solar PV system. Watch the 2 vids in my previous post, only a few minutes each!

nice storage unit for retrofit systems designs.

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

rolion wrote: »

I think you will make yourself a big disadvantage by buying a product from a non local supplier or at least,not represented or based in UK.
By purchasing a important piece in the overall PV architecture and having to return it to some third party across many seas and oceans will invalidate any savings you have made already(or will make in the future,after replacment after an unknwon RMA / warranty work ).

Thats one of the main reasons why i advise to go with a known name that has a local Irish or UK presence ...

I have no intention of buying these parts and fitting them myself. Sure it is cheaper to get an Irish SEAI approved installer do it

conor_mc

Interesting blog on the plyontech battery warranty fwiw unkel.

https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/homeowner/solar-storage-warranty-powerwall-pylontech-powervault

So the usable capacity is 2.15kWh and the lifetime cycle cost is similar to the retail price of electricity (excluding the grant admittedly). The warranty doesn't sound too promising.
I just can't see the justification for residential storage at these prices unless you need and get backup / off grid capability as well.

air wrote: »

(excluding the grant admittedly)

The grant makes all the difference. It's a nice system to get "officially" installed for just €1300. Not so much for the guts of €2000 and you having to do your own DIY install.

air wrote: »

The warranty doesn't sound too promising.

The written warranty is not really relevant. If you buy from an SEAI approved Irish installer, it will have to comply with the Sale of Goods Act. If the battery fails after say 5 years, the supplier should get it fixed, should replace it or should issue you a full refund and if the they don't play ball, the small claims court will find in your favour.

That's well and good if the installing company and indeed Pylontech are around in 5 years.
Personally I can think of plenty of better ways to spend €1400
I stand by my position that battery storage at this point is only viable as a means to get the additional €1600 of grant aid to those for whom this is applicable.

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I dont support this party, can't even remember contacting him but I must have at one stage

You contacted us previously in regard to environmental issues.

We would like to update you in regard to the Sinn Féin Microgeneration Support Scheme Bill which will come before the Dáil this coming Tuesday 27th November.

This bill aims to establish a feed-in tariff for electricity exported to the grid from small scale generation. We hope all parties can support the bill as we believe that small scale generation must form part of the wide portfolio of renewable energy sources we need going forward.

If you would like to receive further contact from us and our environmental policies please let us know.

Is mise le meas,

Brian Stanley TD

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Well...is this side of 2018 November or...2019 side of November !?

It was discussed on Tuesday

I didnt watch but the feedback was that they do not want private house getting FiT. THey are using the excuse that people who get FiT will increase the price for people without FiT.....which is a load of bulls**t

They released something about trying to do it for small business but that again is a load of bulls**t.

Too many jobs for the boys in ESB etc

antoinolachtnai

Well, after 2021 you will have to have access to the settlement to sell your electricity under EU law, whatever the government says or does.

The only problem is that we will be paid very little for solar. It is just worth very little.

It is definitely true that if you pay a home producer more than the market price for the electricity, then other customers who can't afford their own solar will have to pay the difference.

Market price plus any green subsidies that are offered to large scale green energy suppliers would be a good starting point for FIT. There should be some benefit to consumers also due to the savings in TUOS and other charges due to the local consumption of export. We're a long way off needing to worry about overall export from clusters of private homes.

antoinolachtnai

Nobody is worried about export from clusters of private homes really. The savings in TUoS and DUoS are there but a bit ephemeral. PV only really produces when the networks are quite lightly loaded. Sure, small producers should get the same as big producers.

Will the rates large producers will get be enough to incentivise small producers?

Any FIT at all will help uptake by domestic and small commercial producers and has potential to be very light on administrative and bureaucratic overhead.
Look at people on this thread considering battery storage for returns that are realistically less than that which would be achieved by even a 4c/kWh FIT.

There are certainly concerns about PV on domestic homes in other jurisdictions where they have high penetration. Anecdotally, plenty of people in rural areas in the UK have been refused permission for PV. It's usually due to sharing a transformer with another customer or customers with lots of PV. Almost trivially easy to completely mitigate nowadays though if the will is there.

We're a country set up for the benefit of vested interest groups so a FIT may be a long way off.
We should open an international centre of excellence on regulatory capture, it's almost an art form here.
The coal lobby in Australia is doing it's best to scupper (or at least slow) adoption of solar there, vested interests here are far more slick in how they operate.

With regard to PV producing when networks are lightly loaded, that's old school thinking to an extent. In the medium term the networks will move towards being loaded more heavily when energy is cheapest.
PV production will be ideal for charging EVs parked up during the working day too, most production will occur during hours that the majority of vehicles are parked.

So my sums to work out if this is a good idea.

Based on: €900 per year usage, cost €4300 for panels inc hybrid inverter (battery to follow) for 3kw system.

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years (based on electricity prices not increasing). If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 8.5 years

Best case: Reduce our electricity bill by 3/4 saving €675 a year, payback would be 6 years If you based it off electricity increasing 5% year on year your return would be in 5.5 years

Guessing it would work out somewhere in the middle. Is my worst case too optimistic?

Price Increases on Electricity based on: https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/crops/crops/EnergyInIreland2011Report.PDF

KCross

GaryCocs wrote: »

Worst case: Reduce our electricity bill by half saving €450 a year, payback would be 9.5 years

Is my worst case too optimistic?

So, the question is, how did you calculate that you would half your electricity bill?

Sounds WAY too optimistic to me.

EDIT: When you say your usage is €900 is that the total bill cost or the kWh cost? If its the total bill cost you are definitely out in your calculations as a decent portion of your bill is PSO level and standing charges, which will not change with the addition of Solar.
Even if its €900 for kWh's, its still too optimistic, imo.

Reducing your bill by half even with a battery sounds optimistic to me. Without a battery you can forget about it, unless you micro manage it (as in switch on appliances consecutively around the middle of the day when it is sunny, etc.)

What's roughly your calculations / assumptions? A lot of people fail to realise that when they run an appliance that uses 1kWh on solar, that the saving is only 8c, not 16c (as they could have run that appliance at night at the lower rate). Same for charging a car, and even worse for heating water...