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Euthanasia

Gael23

Been following a blogger documenting his battle with terminal cancer the past few months. He lost that battle at the end of September.
More recently his family have posted a clip describing the last few days of his life and to be honest it’s fairly horrific. Things like vomiting so violently it projects up to the ceiling of his hospice room.
An animal wouldn’t be allowed to suffer like that so why should a human being?

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Deebles McBeebles

Anyone else watch the Louis Theroux documentary about this on Sunday? In some states in the US its just a matter of mixing 2 bottles of liquid and off you go to sleep. Its certainly a choice I would like to be able to make for myself.

LirW

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

My father is currently living with dementia, that is an illness that has no upside; no positive prognosis and only downsides.

The second I get anything like that it's off to Dignitas. It should be available here though.

And the "Dutch dancer" - those using that for anti-euthanasia purposes need to read more. Holland, like Belgium - and some others I believe - allow doctor assisted suicide for not only severe mental illness but cases where a patient is suffering so much (although not YET) terminal that they are at risk of developing mental health crisis.

As with equal marriage, divorce and latterly abortion - if you don't agree with this, then don't do it. But how dare you prevent others from doing so!

My family had a few ugly cases of Dementia and Alzheimer and I know I don't wanna die this death. If I come to the realisation I depreciate because I'm dement, that's it for me, I'll blow the lights out. Nothing scares me more than having a degerative disease and maybe not realising it until it's so advanced that I need full-time care.

vonlars

Graces7 wrote: »

????? Not sure what your post is about? Very odd reasoning on a matter of life and death?

Not a question of being uncomfortable. A question of life.. did you read the references I gave? There are too many dangers of abuse as was shown in the UK
If you are really determined there are ways to end your life or that of a relative. People die of drugs ODs every day.

So you're fine with it once they do it illegally and risk murder or other charges? How about Gail O'Rorke who was charged after booking tickets to Dignitas for a friend?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/right-to-die-an-ethical-issue-that-this-country-will-have-to-address-469755.html

[Deleted User]

Graces7 wrote: »

Essien wrote: »

I think I'd be ok with that if it meant that in the vast majority of cases, terminally ill people didn't need need to suffer unnecessarily.

With good hospice care, they don't.

That's not the experience of a family member with an in-law in a hospice at present with cancer.

They have had two very difficult months, and have more to come.

Brian?

Graces7 wrote: »

Like many here I live in almost constant pain and many here would call my life fruitless.

No way is suicide acceptable

Why isn't suicide acceptable? Shouldn't a person be allowed to choose between suffering and death? It's ultimate personal freedom.

You would choose to live and I admire you for it. I would likely do the same, however I don't think others should make the decision for me.

PlaneSpeeking

My father is currently living with dementia, that is an illness that has no upside; no positive prognosis and only downsides.

The second I get anything like that it's off to Dignitas. It should be available here though.

And the "Dutch dancer" - those using that for anti-euthanasia purposes need to read more. Holland, like Belgium - and some others I believe - allow doctor assisted suicide for not only severe mental illness but cases where a patient is suffering so much (although not YET) terminal that they are at risk of developing mental health crisis.

As with equal marriage, divorce and latterly abortion - if you don't agree with this, then don't do it. But how dare you prevent others from doing so!

Phibsboro

Graces7 wrote: »

There wouldn't be; a personal acquaintance that was not made headline news thankfully. Amazing that any arguments you make are based on this technique..discredit and accuse! VERY .... youthful

over and out from here thank you.

I'm just pointing out that something you are trying to use as an example of euthanasia being abused is actually a technique actively supported by anti-euthanasia groups.

joe40

There are dangers of abuse of Euthanasia laws, but that is not an argument against Euthanasia. It is an argument to ensure any laws are well governed with multiple checks.

I have no doubt it would be difficult legislation, but that is not reason enough to leave family members in the position where they are risking jail to help loved ones in desperate situations.

[Deleted User]

judeboy101 wrote: »

To play devils advocate, there is no way to 100% exclude the possibility that family friends may coerce or influence the process for their own reasons, which may not tally with the reasons of the person being euthanised, hence why i can't support it.

Why is the familiar line “oh, some might be coerced into it” constantly trotted out as an excuse to justify maintaining a complete ban? For those who wish to end their lives because they have a terminal illness thats causing extreme discomfort, its appalling that they cannot do so.

banie01

Having seen family members succumb to Motor Nuerone Disease and various cancers, I'm firmly in the camp of allowing Euthanasia.
I'd preface that support however with the caveat that I would wish to see it governed by an ethical and robust set of rules.
Palliative care is vital to so many, and while not wanting to put the responsibility for any decision to euthanise on to the palliative care teams.
I do believe that they are very well placed to advise on the quality of life and even more importantly, the quality of death that a patient could expect if nature is allowed to take its course.

I firmly believe in allowing someone to choose to die with dignity, and with many Illnesses dignity is stripped away long before ones terminal breath.

Emme

Graces7 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Have a nice day..

I hope you are having a nice day. Seriously.

I do not agree with your views on euthanasia. It should be the choice of the individual concerned.

If people want to live as long as possible despite having no quality of life and being unable to recognise anyone and being unaware of little except pain that is their choice and it should be honoured.

If people do not want to live any longer because they are no longer able to live independently that is their choice. A case of this was the 104 year old academic who travelled from Australia to Switzerland to end his life.

I agree that the availability of euthanasia could be abused if proper legislation is not put in place. However I am of the opinion that people are living nowadays with conditions that would have ended their lives before due to modern intervention. That intervention is not always comfortable for the person concerned but it can make a lot of money for different groups of people. Farming the sick and the maimed for profit when they are in constant pain and have no quality of life whatsoever and no hope is far more cruel than enabling them to end that suffering if they choose to do so.

Graces7

Phibsboro wrote: »

I'm not sure if you realise that end of life processes like the Liverpool Care Pathway you are linking to are a reaction against the possible introduction of euthanasia? And they actively supported by anti-euthanasia organisations like Care Not Killing :

https://www.carenotkilling.org.uk/news/liverpool-care-pathway

The fact it is that ideologues would rather have a pathway that sedates and starves people to an early death than allow the patient themselves to chose to end their life in a dignified way at a time and place of their choosing.

Also, I think your Dutch ballet dancer might be fake news - I can't find any mention of a case like that online.[/QUOTE]

There wouldn't be; a personal acquaintance that was not made headline news thankfully. Amazing that any arguments you make are based on this technique..discredit and accuse! VERY .... youthful

over and out from here thank you.

gctest50

Graces7 wrote: »

wedges have very thin ends.. One of the cases in Holland was a young professional ballet dancer of 24 who had injured her foot and was told she would never dance again. She requested and gained euthanasia.

You mean something like this ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23698071

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient

Phibsboro wrote: »

...................

Also, I think your Dutch ballet dancer might be fake news - I can't find any mention of a case like that online.

Not quite fake

Straight from Anti-Choice Central :

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/film-depicting-euthanasia-of-26-year-old-dutch-woman-draws-700000-viewers

AMSTERDAM, June 25, 2013– A documentary on the “chosen death” of a young woman who was suffering from a degenerative disease has drawn a mass audience in the Netherlands.

Priscilla Brouwer, described in the film as a “disco queen,” was a 25-year-old woman

with a hereditary illness

who decided to end her life on her 26th birthday. “I would like to get away from life happily. I prefer to leave it at age 26 rather than at 30 after years of suffering,” she said.

Brouwer was diagnosed at 16 with an unnamed disease. Her mother also suffered from and eventually died of the illness. The film notes that she was not in the terminal phase of the disease when she was euthanized.

SusieBlue

Graces7 wrote: »

Like many here I live in almost constant pain and many here would call my life fruitless.

No way is suicide acceptable

I think what you meant there is there is no way suicide is acceptable to you.

If someone is ill and cannot endure another day of pain and suffering we should not force them to continue living a life they find miserable just to satisfy someone else's personal morals on the matter.

I'm not encouraging or condoning suicide and am all too aware of the effects it has on the family left behind, but as a human I feel nothing but compassion & sympathy towards those who could no longer struggle on under the burden of their pain.

I have seen first hand what the last few days of life looks like with a terminal illness, and there was nothing peaceful or dignified about it.
The closer family members found it extremely distressing & upsetting to see their loved one in such agony.
I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy and would certainly never wish to go through it myself.

A peaceful, dignified death should be allowed for those who want it, and their wishes on the matter should be respected.

Phibsboro

Graces7 wrote: »

wedges have very thin ends.. One of the cases in Holland was a young professional ballet dancer of 24 who had injured her foot and was told she would never dance again. She requested and gained euthanasia.

You mean something like this ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23698071

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient

I'm not sure if you realise that end of life processes like the Liverpool Care Pathway you are linking to are a reaction against the possible introduction of euthanasia? And they actively supported by anti-euthanasia organisations like Care Not Killing :

https://www.carenotkilling.org.uk/news/liverpool-care-pathway

The fact it is that ideologues would rather have a pathway that sedates and starves people to an early death than allow the patient themselves to chose to end their life in a dignified way at a time and place of their choosing.

Also, I think your Dutch ballet dancer might be fake news - I can't find any mention of a case like that online.

CPTM

When this comes to proper public debate, there will be the similar arguments back and forth as with the abortion campaign, where one side will talk about how a life is a life and we should never play God with it, and the other side which acknowledges that it's not ideal but it's happening illegally in Ireland anyway so we should do it in a more supportive and safe way, and we should trust people to have control of their own life.

Eventually it will go to a referendum and there will be a landslide win to the euthanasia side and life will go on. The change will be an incredible relief to the tiny tiny part of the community it affects, while the rest of society bring their attention back to their kids, difficult daily commute, and Netflix programmes.

seamus

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Is a referendum needed for this?

Yeah, kind of.

Suicide is not illegal. And there is no referendum required to make it legal for someone to provide me with the necessary tools to kill myself.

But someone who is physically capable of ending their own life, doesn't need permission. They're not going to apply for a "licence", or ask their doctor for help.

So that's not really the issue being discussed. It's really about assisted suicide - helping people to end their lives when they're physically incapable of doing so.

And this would possibly require a referendum, as there would be several possible points in the constitution in which it could be held unconstitutional to allow assisted suicide.

It's not expressly barred, but if a government were to legalise it, then it would take a very long time to test it for constitutionality.

It might be in fact faster to just place a clause in the constitution that allows the government to legalise it. Then there's no question.

seamus

Graces7 wrote: »

????? Not sure what your post is about? Very odd reasoning on a matter of life and death?

Not a question of being uncomfortable. A question of life.. did you read the references I gave? There are too many dangers of abuse as was shown in the UK
If you are really determined there are ways to end your life or that of a relative. People die of drugs ODs every day.

"Because it's too open to be abused, people should go off and do this in secret so that society doesn't have to talk about it". Just like abortion.

Letting your faith shine right through there Grace.

gctest50

It'd be better to go the nice, organised route :

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Graces7 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Have a nice day..

Is that your reaction to everybody who disagrees? Ignore them?

Who are you to tell me if I should live or die. It's my choice, I should get to decide if I want to continue living or not. Your views are incredibly selfish.

Graces7

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's your choice and people should accept it, applaud it even, but in no way should you be allowed to impose it on those who might want to choose differently.
Logically it's no different from seeking to impose mandatory euthanasia - which I'm fairly sure you'd be very much opposed to!

:rolleyes:

Have a nice day..

Ursus Horribilis

As far as I know, living wills have no legal standing. It'd give us some idea of what someone wants for themselves while they're still in a position to tell us.

After having seen what palliative care doesn't do for dying people and having spent time in a high dependence nursing home, the thoughts of being unable to have a say over my own destiny are terrifying. Modern medicine has saved people and that's great. It also has prolonged the misery for others and we never hear about that.

gctest50

Graces7 wrote: »

????? Not sure what your post is about? Very odd reasoning on a matter of life and death?

Not a question of being uncomfortable. A question of life.. did you read the references I gave? There are too many dangers of abuse as was shown in the UK

If you are really determined there are ways to end your life or that of a relative.

People die of drugs ODs every day.

Very bad 'advice' - method probably amongst the most prone to failure

And you may die in misery and agony, if you survive you could be left with a fcked liver/kidneys on top of whatever was wrong with you

sbsquarepants

Graces7 wrote: »

Like many here I live in almost constant pain and many here would call my life fruitless.

No way is suicide acceptable

That's your choice and people should accept it, applaud it even, but in no way should you be allowed to impose it on those who might want to choose differently.
Logically it's no different from seeking to impose mandatory euthanasia - which I'm fairly sure you'd be very much opposed to!

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

People at the end of their lives are already being abused by a system that denies them choice and autonomy.

Just because something is difficult or imperfect, doesn't mean we should avoid doing it.

We can't just bury our heads in the sand and ignore the suffering that people at the end of the lives are being forced to endure because we're uncomfortable with the questions that euthanasia raises.

That's a much greater injustice, far more morally reprehensible than euthanasia itself.

????? Not sure what your post is about? Very odd reasoning on a matter of life and death?

Not a question of being uncomfortable. A question of life.. did you read the references I gave? There are too many dangers of abuse as was shown in the UK
If you are really determined there are ways to end your life or that of a relative. People die of drugs ODs every day.

sbsquarepants

Graces7 wrote: »

wedges have very thin ends.. One of the cases in Holland was a young professional ballet dancer of 24 who had injured her foot and was told she would never dance again. She requested and gained euthanasia.

You mean something like this ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23698071

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient

I think it basically boils down to who "owns" the life. The person living it, their family, society as a whole? As far as I'm concerned, I own my life, mind and body. If I decide I've had enough of living for whatever reasons, i'll be opting out, legally or otherwise. I don't care what society thinks of that, society doesn't own me!

The problem is some people aren't in a position to do that themselves, they might be paralysed or vegetative or something like that, and they may not want to put the burden on their families or friends by asking for assistance - it does criminalise them after all.

There is no reason why people should be forced to suffer, just to keep them alive so they can suffer some more. If people want to die, let them die.

seamus

Graces7 wrote: »

Did you look up the references I gave? This issue has many facets . Open to so ,much abuse

People at the end of their lives are already being abused by a system that denies them choice and autonomy.

Just because something is difficult or imperfect, doesn't mean we should avoid doing it.

We can't just bury our heads in the sand and ignore the suffering that people at the end of the lives are being forced to endure because we're uncomfortable with the questions that euthanasia raises.

That's a much greater injustice, far more morally reprehensible than euthanasia itself.

Gael23

Graces7 wrote: »

wedges have very thin ends.. One of the cases in Holland was a young professional ballet dancer of 24 who had injured her foot and was told she would never dance again. She requested and gained euthanasia.

You mean something like this ?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23698071

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient

I mean someone in the final stages of a cancer battle or with a terminal illness where death is expected to occur within a short time and where that person is suffering unacceptably.
Should the patients doctor and next of kin have the power not to prolong that suffering?

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

This already happens without legal euthanasia.
Legalising it would just shine a spotlight on it and make it more difficult to get away with this coercive behaviour.
But it's a fact that today some families coerce their loved ones into "giving up" prematurely.

It's relevant, but not directly connected, to legalised euthanasia.
This is naive.
Suffering takes many forms. Someone doesn't have to be in pain, to be suffering. The indignity and helplessness of being in a hospice bed can be intolerable suffering for some.
You cannot say that "with good hospice care, people don't suffer". It's just plain wrong.

Not. I am nearly 80 years old and know a lot more on this than you do; have seen friends go down that road.

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

This already happens without legal euthanasia.
Legalising it would just shine a spotlight on it and make it more difficult to get away with this coercive behaviour.
But it's a fact that today some families coerce their loved ones into "giving up" prematurely.

It's relevant, but not directly connected, to legalised euthanasia.
This is naive.
Suffering takes many forms. Someone doesn't have to be in pain, to be suffering. The indignity and helplessness of being in a hospice bed can be intolerable suffering for some.
You cannot say that "with good hospice care, people don't suffer". It's just plain wrong.

Did you look up the references I gave? This issue has many facets . Open to so ,much abuse