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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

kuro68k wrote: »

The British government is going to take it right to the cliff edge and hope that someone else compromises. Of course they have their excuses already lined up if no-one does, only real question is who they will blame.

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

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hill16bhoy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Could be the play. The DUP have effectively shot their bolt now and have been sidelined. It's been put up to the entire parliament now.

Have to say, if May pulls this off it will be some win.

The DUP still have one card, the one they've been scared stiff of playing for the last year and a half because of their fear of Corbyn - to bring down the Government.

Will they play it, or will they remain all talk?

charlie14

brickster69 wrote: »

The sharks are circling

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1063551045534662657

Amazed that Gove didn`t look for the vacant job of Brexit minister and go over to Brussels and sort it out himself. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Surely the only way the backstop could be renegotiated would involve NI moving even closer to the EU sphere to allow the rest of the UK go make their deals with the rest of the world.

Could be the play. The DUP have effectively shot their bolt now and have been sidelined. It's been put up to the entire parliament now.

Have to say, if May pulls this off it will be some win.

Mr.Nice Guy

Surely the only way the backstop could be renegotiated would involve NI moving even closer to the EU sphere to allow the rest of the UK go make their deals with the rest of the world.

Anthracite

Water John wrote: »

If Gove et al, think they can fully renegotiate the Deal they are delusional.

Let me rephrase that for you:

Gove et al are delusional. In other news, they think they can renegotiate the deal.

Water John

If Gove et al, think they can fully renegotiate the Deal they are delusional.

Anthracite

Folkstonian wrote: »

Except that’s not what I did. I disputed the veracity of the argument that the EU has been the key to peace on the continent. I don’t think it has been.

Who did you have in mind for first place though? The French?

I suppose the French and the British are amongst the worst offenders, but I suppose that would depend on how far you wish to go back.

brickster69

The sharks are circling

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1063551045534662657

charlie14

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Are you still banging this drum?

If it`s the drum of his user name, let him bang away.

Folkstonian

Anthracite wrote: »

To be fair, if we are throwing brickbats at European nations for being warmongers over the years, the Germans are very much in the ha'penny place.

Except that’s not what I did. I disputed the veracity of the argument that the EU has been the key to peace on the continent. I don’t think it has been.

Who did you have in mind for first place though? The French?

Anthracite

Folkstonian wrote: »

I’ve heard this quite a lot recently. I’m not completely convinced that peace in Europe is something the EU can proudly claim to be the cornerstone of.

Rather, smashing Nazi Germany and rebuilding the whole country from ground up to be much less.. ambitious in foreign affairs, is probably the main reason the second half of the 20th century was largely peaceful

The ever present threat of nuclear war also played a part in keeping everyone on their toes too, I’d wager

To be fair, if we are throwing brickbats at European nations for being warmongers over the years, the Germans are very much in the ha'penny place.

Anthracite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Even if it did ever go ahead, we secured an opt-out from such an army in Lisbon II:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union#Irish_protocol_on_the_Lisbon_Treaty

I wonder why the poster didn't know about this... :rolleyes:

Folkstonian

Akrasia wrote: »

And the most peaceful period in modern European history

I’ve heard this quite a lot recently. I’m not completely convinced that peace in Europe is something the EU can proudly claim to be the cornerstone of.

Rather, smashing Nazi Germany and rebuilding the whole country from ground up to be much less.. ambitious in foreign affairs, is probably the main reason the second half of the 20th century was largely peaceful

The ever present threat of nuclear war also played a part in keeping everyone on their toes too, I’d wager

Anthracite

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

I work with a number of Greek nationals who also thought that they were rich gorged on the European Debt that the German banks in particular poured into the country, they don't feel so rich now.

There is absolutely no comparison between Greece's situation and ours that one minute's research wouldn't completely refute.

Water John

Steve Baker may have been the source of the over zealous reach this morning, claiming that 48 letters had gone in. It might have happened by now or over the weekend. We'll know on Monday. they would be very foolish to trigger it ATM.

Still seeing the Deal vote being lost. Maybe that's why the notion of it being still an option closer to Brexit day is still being floated?
We'll be really into uncharted territory if it's voted down.
Not that worried now as Crash out has been shown up for the nonsense that it is. whether UK takes this Deal or decides to Remain doesn't affect us that much, but it's really daft for the UK to stay attached and have no say.

An Ciarraioch

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

But that's because the border was already open before the GFA was negotiated and signed; the GFA didn't need to address it.

So there were no checkpoints on the border when the GFA was being negotiated nor afterwards. Is that what you're saying?

Because the Single Market abolished them in 1993.

Seth Brundle

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

So there were no checkpoints on the border when the GFA was being negotiated nor afterwards. Is that what you're saying?

Are you still banging this drum?
The GFA arranged a framework which has ensured peace in NI. Brexit has risked that peace by undermining the GFA. A hard Brexit is a huge risk to that peace.
Now stop with your petty questions on what is written in the GFA about a border because nobody here claimed it was there

An Ciarraioch

The veteran commentator, David Blevins, with a pointed barb!

http://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/1063481317193592832

ThePanjandrum

Peregrinus wrote: »

But that's because the border was already open before the GFA was negotiated and signed; the GFA didn't need to address it.

So there were no checkpoints on the border when the GFA was being negotiated nor afterwards. Is that what you're saying?

Junkyard Tom

Roanmore wrote: »

Are all the DUP united in support for Brexit or have any of them spoke out against it?

They'll present a united front but I suspect there are people in the DUP who are thinking 'WTF are we doing?'. You see the thing that unites the DUP, and has gay people voting for them, is 'them'uns'.

There's an element within Unionism that can only view the north as a zero-sum-game - if 'them'uns' are getting something we're losing something.

Akrasia

Inquitus wrote: »

The "Project" that has delivered us from a nation of relative poverty to being one of the richest in the world, yep, lets leave....

And the most peaceful period in modern European history

ThePanjandrum

Tell me how wrote: »

Question Time is mental tonight.

It's always packed with Remainers, which is the BBC way. Despite Leave winning the Referendum there has never been more than two of the five panelists who are Brexiters, often it is one of the five.

anto77

Inquitus wrote: »

The "Project" that has delivered us from a nation of relative poverty to being one of the richest in the world, yep, lets leave....

Eh last time I checked we were 200bn in the red?

Capt'n Midnight

charlie14 wrote: »

From their 2015 results that would still leave the UUP -1, and the DUP +5.

There's the boundary changes too. Which don't hurt the DUP.

It's likely they will be able to abuse the Petition Of Concern in the Assembly again. Remember that when anyone suggests giving Stormont a say in Brexit or a UI what they really mean is giving the DUP a veto.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/09/11/boundary-commission-the-detailed-projections/

Capt'n Midnight

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

If you sell your soul to the devil he will eventually be dropping by to collect.

Something the DUP are aware of.

It's not just RHI. You have to remember the slush funds for the leave campaign i The Metro was channelled through through them.

They could have easily sat out Brexit, put up a token resistance "Down with this sort of thing" and gone home to the status quo where Nationalists were, for most purposes, living in a seamless 32 county Ireland and there was no real incentive for a United Ireland. Where a farmer could be British and his cows Irish.

They could have refused a deal with May over loads of issues, they are very good at saying NO. So could easily have scuppered Brexit without seeming to.

I'm sure Arlene would love to be able to reign in "her" MP's.

Like the ERG, the DUP have only have one card. Once it's played they have nothing. Scottish Tory MP's also have the option to pull the plug. But there is a standoff here. Any one player can play that card.

Seth Brundle

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

I forgive your ignorance, I wasn't born a second before my first post on here but if the number of previous posts someone has put on here is your measure of competence then good luck.

Ok so it's just coincidental that you're one of many anti-EU posters who joined the very day that the British government embarrased their nation further with the fartfest that is Brexit.

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence in history you just have to look for it.

That's not how these discussions work.
You make a claim and try and back it up. It's not my role to prove that your point is correct, which it isn't!

An Ciarraioch

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

@PlasticPatrick -ignoring the silly phrases about the devil etc, what is your suggested solution?
Go alone?
Join team GB? They've shown over the centuries that they are never your friend.
Stay in the EU effectively as a joint partner?
Something else?

None of the above, just be wary of a push to militarise Europe and use any influence that Ireland has to prevent it.

Neutrality will not be an option once an EU army influenced by the Germans and French is used to exert foreign policy on behalf of the people of Europe and Ireland.

Even if it did ever go ahead, we secured an opt-out from such an army in Lisbon II:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union#Irish_protocol_on_the_Lisbon_Treaty

PlasticPatrick

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ok forgive my trepidation against a newbie expert telling me to be wary of the EU.

Is that based on any evidence or just a hunch?

I forgive your ignorance, I wasn't born a second before my first post on here but if the number of previous posts someone has put on here is your measure of competence then good luck.

There is plenty of evidence in history you just have to look for it.

charlie14

PlasticPatrick wrote: »

None of the above, just be wary of a push to militarise Europe and use any influence that Ireland has to prevent it.

Neutrality will not be an option once an EU army influenced by the Germans and French is used to exert foreign policy on behalf of the people of Europe and Ireland.

So France and Germany are going to take control of an army made up of personnel from all the EU states to invade an EU state that doesn`t agree with the foreign policies of France and Germany.

I get the feeling you may not have thought this one through. On quite a few levels.

GalwayMark

Some basic defence capabilities is not the end of the world and comparing it to the British army is frankly crass. We can’t have opt-outs when it suits since the bloc has shown massive solidarity throughout the whole brexit process. However running an army doesn’t we have to become like our Sparta-like neighbours. Maybe ask the Baltic’s who sleep easier but would be terrified if Europe was not able to protect them any time the kremlin made noises. Don’t get me wrong the global expenditure on militaries is outrageous and the arms industry must be shut down or have their power severely curtailed but all member states must keep it together.