Ruth Coppinger holds up thong in Dail

tritium wrote: »

You don’t actually know that. What you have is one line from an extensive trial and based on that you’ve inferred every other aspect.

If you’re going to accuse a court of impropriety you absolutely do need to back it up with more than one sentence from a trial and a load of blister.

it was more than one sentence.

SusieBlue wrote: »

In another Cork case that was in the courts this week, a young woman asleep at a house party woke up to find her pants pulled down and a man sexually assaulting her.
She reported it straight away, and the man in question admitted his guilt & took full liability for what he had done.

His punishment? A two year suspended sentence. No jail time. For sexually assaulting and violating a sleeping woman. A slap on the wrist, basically.

Yet people here are still saying that rapes and sexual assaults are over-reported and appropriately punished. Laughable.

Link here to the court report.

As you noted, he admitted the offense in court, and took full liability for what we had done, and the woman was happy with that. Quoting from the article: "it was acknowledged by the victim in her statement that she was entirely vindicated by his public acknowledgement of being 100% responsible for sexually assaulting her."

So, this young man admitted he was in the wrong, she stated that she was "entirely vindicated" by his public acknowledgement of guilt, he was given a suspended sentence ... and you want what, exactly? How should he have been "appropriately punished"?

Atlas Rotten Machinist wrote: »

As you noted, he admitted the offense in court, and took full liability for what we had done, and the woman was happy with that. Quoting from the article: "it was acknowledged by the victim in her statement that she was entirely vindicated by his public acknowledgement of being 100% responsible for sexually assaulting her."

So, this young man admitted he was in the wrong, she stated that she was "entirely vindicated" by his public acknowledgement of guilt, he was given a suspended sentence ... and you want what, exactly? How should he have been "appropriately punished"?

He's a man, I think you can probably guess what they want....!

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No we are basing it on the actual words used by defence counsel.

Can you link to the defense's entire closing statement so that we can see her remarks about the underwear in context?

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That does not explain how the judge allowed the thong & the barristers comments. The comments suggest that wearing a thong means wanting sex. Obviously this is not true & how a judge allowed it is beyond me

Actually it really does. If the prosecution case is that the accuser were a vestal virgin and hence would never have consented to sex with anyone in any circumstance then any evidence that shows otherwise would be valid to dispute that narriative. We’re the thong used in isolation here that would likely fail, however we don’t actually know what else was presented.

The thong in itself wouldn’t be enough to cast reasonable doubt on that position. However as part of a much wider block of evidence it may in total create that doubt. A jury of 12 ordinary people had the opportunity to consider all the evidence presented. It’s ludicrous to suggest that they didn’t have the cop on to afford this appropriate weight and context while we denizens of the internet clearly know better.

If the prosecution did indeed try to paint a flawed picture then it’s not just permissible but obligated on a defence to challenge that

Boggles

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No we are basing it on the actual words used by defence counsel.

That's my actual point.

No context, no background, no detail.

One and a half maybe 2 sentences from a 2nd hand source.

Does that trump an experienced criminal trial Judge who actually presided over the case?

No of course not.

Bigbagofcans

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

He's a man, I think you can probably guess what they want....!

What sort of an answer is that?

Maybe people want proper sentences so like you know it deters people?

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

What sort of an answer is that?

Maybe people want proper sentences so like you know it deters people?

Have you read the actual case report ?

There were 4 pissed people in bed together and he copped a feel.

When he realised his mistake he owned up.

You think what a ten stretch would be enough ?

Atlas Rotten Machinist wrote: »

Can you link to the defense's entire closing statement so that we can see her remarks about the underwear in context?

The full closing statement has not been reported. this is what has been reported.

“Does the evidence out-rule the possibility that she was attracted to the defendant and was open to meeting someone and being with someone? You have to look at the way she was dressed. She was wearing a thong with a lace front.”

Because we all know that girls who wear thongs with lace fronts are asking for it.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Have you read the actual case report ?

There were 4 pissed people in bed together and he copped a feel.

When he realised his mistake he owned up.

You think what a ten stretch would be enough ?

You mean he realised he was wrong when she woke up and told him to stop? How gallant of him.

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Maybe people want proper sentences so like you know it deters people?

What would be a "proper sentence" for someone who, under the influence of drink and/or drugs, fingered a sleeping girl after a house party, fully regretted it, and pled guilty in court?

Bigbagofcans

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Have you read the actual case report ?

There were 4 pissed people in bed together and he copped a feel.

When he realised his mistake he owned up.

You think what a ten stretch would be enough ?

Is that how you describe sexual assault?

By the way your comments about women blaming men are unfair.

SusieBlue

Atlas Rotten Machinist wrote: »

As you noted, he admitted the offense in court, and took full liability for what we had done, and the woman was happy with that. Quoting from the article: "it was acknowledged by the victim in her statement that she was entirely vindicated by his public acknowledgement of being 100% responsible for sexually assaulting her."

So, this young man admitted he was in the wrong, she stated that she was "entirely vindicated" by his public acknowledgement of guilt, he was given a suspended sentence ... and you want what, exactly? How should he have been "appropriately punished"?

I think a suspended sentence is an absolute joke of a punishment for sexually assaulting someone.
I absolutely think someone who admits to doing it, or is found guilty of it, should be given a prison sentence.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You mean he realised he was wrong when she woke up and told him to stop? How gallant of him.

Exactly yes.

You don't think getting into bed with three other absolutely locked is a good idea surely ?

SusieBlue

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Have you read the actual case report ?

There were 4 pissed people in bed together and he copped a feel.

When he realised his mistake he owned up.

You think what a ten stretch would be enough ?

And you are exactly what the problem is.
Would you consider it to be a "copped feel" if you awoke to find some random mans hands inside you?
Seriously?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The full closing statement has not been reported. this is what has been reported.

Ah, okay. So you have access to just three sentences of the defense counsel's statement, and don't know anything about the context or her overall argument?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Exactly yes.

You don't think getting into bed with three other absolutely locked is a good idea surely ?

ah so she is at fault for getting drunk. It is always the womans fault with you. I wonder how far he would have gone if she had not woken up.

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Is that how you describe sexual assault?

By the way your comments about women blaming men are unfair.

"In your opinion" you mean ?

How I describe an alleged sexual assault depends on the incident.

The Bishop Basher

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The full closing statement has not been reported. this is what has been reported.

So where are you getting the context from ?

Atlas Rotten Machinist wrote: »

Ah, okay. So you have access to just three sentences of the defense counsel's statement, and don't know anything about the context or her overall argument?

Only somebody who was in court knows everything that was said. We do only have those three sentences to go on. They are enough.

Bigbagofcans

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

"In your opinion" you mean ?

How I describe an alleged sexual assault depends on the incident.

If someone doesn't consent then it's assault.

Rennaws wrote: »

So where are you getting the context from ?

what context makes the fact that her knickers had a lace front relevant?

SusieBlue wrote: »

And you are exactly what the problem is.
Would you consider it to be a "copped feel" if you awoke to find some random mans hands inside you?
Seriously?

I wouldn't be stupid enough to get into bed with three other people when pissed and then cry rape.

Seriously.

Now you're going on ignore as I really don't need the sanctions that would be forthcoming for any reply to the one sides views held.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It doesn't but it shows you as a lier & a cheater. It discredits your own sworn testimony.

Very poor judgement on his behalf

Only if you claim never to cheat on your partner. You actually have zero evidence he lied to anyone about that, or indeed about his relationship with his wife.

SusieBlue

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I wouldn't be stupid enough to get into bed with three other people when pissed and then cry rape.

Seriously.

Now you're going on ignore as I really don't need the sanctions that would be forthcoming for any reply to the one sides views held.

You might as well just say she asked for it and she deserved it, because that's what you really mean.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No we are basing it on the actual words used by defence counsel.

You’re actually basing it on a selective subset of words used

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

If someone doesn't consent then it's assault.

And yet when I told of my student who was groped by a girl who later made a false accusation of rape against him, her unwanted sexual assault was basically laughed at; dismissed or in one case ignored completely.

The Bishop Basher

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what context makes the fact that her knickers had a lace front relevant?

I don’t know without understanding the context in which it was presented.

Did you attend the trial ?

Rennaws wrote: »

I don’t know without understanding the context in which it was presented.

Did you attend the trial ?

use your imagination. What possible context could make that relevant?