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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

kuro68k wrote: »

The British government is going to take it right to the cliff edge and hope that someone else compromises. Of course they have their excuses already lined up if no-one does, only real question is who they will blame.

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

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Spook_ie

Shelga wrote: »

Yeah, I mean obviously I think the deal is dire, and the entire Brexit fiasco is a ****show of epic proportions, but how is this not bringing home to the imbeciles of the UK that it is simply not possible to have everything that they want.

Of course they can leave, but it means a hard border, no free trade, and economic chaos. This idea that the EU is blackmailing them is laughable.

Now to be fair they were kind of blackmailed into having a backstop thrown in last December under the section entitled loosely "The divorce settlement" as a part of the divorce to move onto the WA section, it should never have been in it until this section " the withdrawal agreement"

Anthracite

relax carry on wrote: »

How are the above being destroyed by the EU? And what evidence do you have that what you believe is occurring?

I'm going to guess...'foreigners'.

Did I win a prize?

Anthracite

theguzman wrote: »

OK, the EU is forcing countries to accept refugees, this brings security concerns, Islamic Immigration as a result of EU policy undermines the entire social order and security of the EU. In Poland last weekend thousands marched and burned EU flags.

In the 1930s, Germans marched and burned stuff. I guess that must mean that the Jews really deserved it.

ThePanjandrum

Infini wrote: »

England and Wales voted leave, Scotland and NI voted remain, the knife edge result is also not a good result to pursue such a divisive policy especially since the UK only retained Scotland 2 years beforehand in part because of the issue of EU citizenship. If this had happened before Indyref then Scotland would have likely become an independent state at this point.

Knife edge result? Leave had 1,269,501 more votes than remain, that's 3.78% of the votes cast. To put that in context, Ireland has a population significantly lower than four times that majority.

prawnsambo

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Well, then, isn't it strange that the EU says

Did you miss this bit?

prawnsambo wrote: »

There are co-operation agreements between the EU and the USA. They aren't FTAs, but they have the effect of being FTAs in a narrower sense. There is also an agreed EU schedule with the WTO. The UK has always been and is a member of the WTO in its own right. However, the UK does not have an agreed schedule of tariffs and quotas with the WTO. They trade on the basis of the EU schedule. That's the bit that Moldova can stop because schedules have to be agreed unainmously by all 163 WTO members. Otherwise it's the base schedule which is pretty damn awful.

For clarity. The co-op agreements are narrow. The rest is covered under the agreed schedule. And that's the important bit you seem to keep missing. Everyone who trades under WTO rules, does so under an agreed schedule. The UK doesn't have one of those and lots of countries are objecting to the proposed one. For example NZ don't like the fact that the UK has pro-ratad a chunk off the EU schedule, they feel that it reduces their trade with the EU.

Thestones

One thing for sure about Brexit and the whole Northern Ireland border issue, it has certainly brought out alot of hatred, if you read comments online for example under articles on Facebook, I am absolutely disgusted by some of the things I've read,the brits/unionists are by far the worst literally having the most childish back and forth arguments with Irish/nationalists. Myself being born and living in the republic all my life I never really cared for or thought much about the North, reading all the horrible comments and the absolute arrogance of the brits I feel so sorry for people in the north that have to deal with this crap.

relax carry on

theguzman wrote: »

OK, the EU is forcing countries to accept refugees, this brings security concerns, Islamic Immigration as a result of EU policy undermines the entire social order and security of the EU. In Poland last weekend thousands marched and burned EU flags.

The way of life is destroyed as so many are swamped in Debt or else working hand to mouth, EU migration into Ireland has caused this as wages were kept artificially low. The Euro has been a disaster for Ireland as we don't have a monetary policy. We should return to the Punt pegged to Gold.

Wow, pretty much full on "dey terk er jerbs" bingo right there. Sorry I asked. Thankfully this type unfounded insanity appears to be at a minimum in Ireland.

Anthracite

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Knife edge result? Leave had 1,269,501 more votes than remain, that's 3.78% of the votes cast. To put that in context, Ireland has a population significantly lower than four times that majority.

Or to put it another way, a 2% swing would have changed the result. Or .005% of the population of China.

ThePanjandrum

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What about EU laws or the superiority of them do they disagree with?
Is there an example of a bad law imposed by the nasty faceless bureaucrats in the EU?

We disagree with the concept, much as Ireland did with the UK before independence.

There is a multiplicity of things that have been imposed on us including most of the Treaties, many of the regulations which are not voted on anyway, policies like the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policies, down to things like the ECJ setting aside the UK's capacity payments today. There are thousands of them. I don't know if you ever access the EU's legal database, I do and it's depressing to see how the EU and its predecessors like the EEC have extended their competency through the years.

Junkyard Tom

A lot of the Brexit opportunists in the UK Parliament will wait for the front pages tomorrow (BoJo, Gove) to see what way the British public consciousness will be swayed and they'll be disappointed to see the Daily Mail has turned on them.

Also, anyone notice how the BBC's tone has changed from stupidly commentating on a boxing match between the UK and the EU to 'how do we get out of this mess'?

Anthracite

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

We disagree with the concept, much as Ireland did with the UK before independence.

There is a multiplicity of things that have been imposed on us including most of the Treaties, many of the regulations which are not voted on anyway, policies like the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policies, down to things like the ECJ setting aside the UK's capacity payments today. There are thousands of them. I don't know if you ever access the EU's legal database, I do and it's depressing to see how the EU and its predecessors like the EEC have extended their competency through the years.

And as soon as you sign your first trade agreement, your newly-won 'freedom' will evaporate as you must agree to trans-national dispute resolution mechanisms that override national courts.

It's so weird how Brexiteers have this almost Platonic concept of sovereignty and freedom, untrammelled by the realities of the actual world they exist in.

prawnsambo

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

We disagree with the concept, much as Ireland did with the UK before independence.

Do not make that comparison. Under no circumstances are those two concepts even vaguely similar.

You might have had a point to make but you lost it when you posted that.

ThePanjandrum

Shelga wrote: »

Of course they can leave, but it means a hard border, no free trade, and economic chaos. This idea that the EU is blackmailing them is laughable.

The EU can impose a hard border if it wishes, that's the EU's decision.

But it is worried about the UK leaving and becoming more successful, which it considers to be quite likely. We will see.

Anyway, it's getting late and I'm signing off, see you some other evening.

Capt'n Midnight

Where are we now ?
Haven't read the full doc yet, is there any point until it's likely to be adopted.

Be sure LOTS of third party countries are dissecting it, for clues, so when the UK shows up for a trade deal it will be a repeat of the first EU-UK meeting where one side had their documents indexed and ready to go and the other side not so much.. Remember the EU is easy mode compared to the rest of the world.

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
This deal doesn't deliver anything for the UK.
It doesn't even sort out the leadership of the Tory party.

On the Immigration front it means the UK, might not have to wait three months to send unemployed EU citizens home. Full Stop.

Surprised there hasn't been more noise from the financial services industry.

And as this isn't the final deal it won't inspire confidence in long term investment. So growth will stay flat at best.

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

We take our chances. A good deal comes because it benefits both parties.

ergo a deal that benefits neither side is a bad deal ?

Thought I recognised the name, The Great Panjandrum one of the secret weapons designed for D Day. It went out of control and backfired spectacularly. Bit like Brexit really.

lawred2

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Some Scottish people are not, but that's beside the point. If Ireland voted for IRexit it would vote as a country. Some counties might be unhappy because most of their voters had made the opposite choice, but that's democracy, the majority wins.

Scotland isn't a county

Shelga

I'm not so sure people in the Republic would want a united Ireland. I think a lot would have to seriously consider all of the financial implications, never mind the fact that unionists would be up in arms, literally. There are a lot of orange towns in NI that are deeply unpleasant places to even drive through. I don't want that as part of Ireland.

Water John

NI has an option whereby the vote of a majority means it can leave the UK and join the ROI. Yorkshire don't have that option.

oscarBravo

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

There is a multiplicity of things that have been imposed on us including most of the Treaties, many of the regulations which are not voted on anyway, policies like the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policies...

The Common Agricultural Policy was first created in 1962, more than a decade before the UK joined the EEC. All changes to it since then have been made by agreement between the member states, in conjunction with the directly-elected European Parliament.

I don't know why you're peddling bog-standard UK-style Euromythology here, especially in a forum largely populated by people who know what they're talking about.

If you're going to peddle tired lies about the EU, you'll have to look elsewhere to find a suitably gullible audience.

ilovesmybrick

Folkstonian wrote: »

Unbelievably he’s consistently polling around about 4 points below May, which paints the bleakest picture of them all I think

I have a certain, increasingly limited, degree of respect for Corbyn and his zealotry towards his 1970's view of a social society. But Jesus what an appalling leader of an opposition. This entire debacle should have been labours ability to stick a knife in the Tories for a few elections and it has been squandered in a manner that I find utterly incomprehensible in a European political system.

There is a degree of schadenfreude with what's happening at the moment, but we are deeply involved in this as Irish/UK citizens. I find it interesting as a political historian and have to admit there's a degree of excitement, that I'm not proud of, in watching a defining historical situation, but I also work in an organisation based in central Europe. And it was only today and yesterday a lot of these very well educated people, in EU countries and have a degree of vested interest, actually realised what the hell was happening in the UK.

I was asked three times to reconfirm that the situation in the North in the 1990's wasn't something that happened in the 1930's. They could not believe the level of deaths during the troubles or what the border was that was dismantled after the GFA or why you would even go near threatening the impasse at the moment.

A few day's ago there were people that gave out on this forum about a belief that our referendum commission and it's benefits was misplaced. At least with our commission you're given the core information and you won't have people in tears on a radio show years later realizing they were lied to. The James O'Brien stuff today is f**king devastating to listen to.

Edit: I also want to point out that this is not an anti UK thing, this is an anti the f**king idiots in the media and political system there at the moment. I think it should be re-iterated, that the majority of us in this forum have friends,family, colleagues etc. living in the UK that are quite worried. Attacking stupidity is not the same as attacking a nation.

lawred2

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

We disagree with the concept, much as Ireland did with the UK before independence.

There is a multiplicity of things that have been imposed on us including most of the Treaties, many of the regulations which are not voted on anyway, policies like the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policies, down to things like the ECJ setting aside the UK's capacity payments today. There are thousands of them. I don't know if you ever access the EU's legal database, I do and it's depressing to see how the EU and its predecessors like the EEC have extended their competency through the years.

List the multiplicity of things imposed on us without votes... Given that you've been accessing the databases, shouldn't take so long

BonnieSituation

Shelga wrote: »

I'm not so sure people in the Republic would want a united Ireland. I think a lot would have to seriously consider all of the financial implications, never mind the fact that unionists would be up in arms, literally. There are a lot of orange towns in NI that are deeply unpleasant places to even drive through. I don't want that as part of Ireland.

Two things, Unionists tend to always be up in arms about something and those "unpleasant places" (* shudders at the thoughts of Larne *) are already part of Ireland.

Anthracite

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The EU can impose a hard border if it wishes, that's the EU's decision.

But it is worried about the UK leaving and becoming more successful, which it considers to be quite likely. We will see.

Anyway, it's getting late and I'm signing off, see you some other evening.

So the UK is going to launch into its WTO trading adventure by defying the WTO and not enforcing border controls?

Yeah, that's going to be a super success. It's amazing that others haven't thought of this.

FrancieBrady

oscarBravo wrote: »

The Common Agricultural Policy was first created in 1962, more than a decade before the UK joined the EEC. All changes to it since then have been made by agreement between the member states, in conjunction with the directly-elected European Parliament.

I don't know why you're peddling bog-standard UK-style Euromythology here, especially in a forum largely populated by people who know what they're talking about.

If you're going to peddle tired lies about the EU, you'll have to look elsewhere to find a suitably gullible audience.

Britain blocked reforms to CAP to protect their wealthy farmers before Brexit. The queen gets 500,000 from it. :rolleyes:

rogue-entity

theguzman wrote:

EU migration into Ireland has caused this as wages were kept artificially low.

Citation needed; the folks I know, the folks I meet who come from other European countries either work in minimum-wage jobs, or, work in jobs that require native speakers of other European languages. In contrast my monolingual peers all want high-skilled high-paying jobs out of college.

theguzman wrote:

We should return to the Punt pegged to Gold.

I would much rather the value of my savings, or buying power of my salary not be eradicated to satisfy some ill-considered jingoistic notion.

Folkstonian

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Where are we now ?
Haven't read the full doc yet, is there any point until it's likely to be adopted.

Be sure LOTS of third party countries are dissecting it, for clues, so when the UK shows up for a trade deal it will be a repeat of the first EU-UK meeting where one side had their documents indexed and ready to go and the other side not so much.. Remember the EU is easy mode compared to the rest of the world.

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
This deal doesn't deliver anything for the UK.
It doesn't even sort out the leadership of the Tory party.

.

Well that’s not quite true. It might not deliver on everything that May promised she would bring back, it gives away quite a lot during the transition period, and it crosses red lines aplenty.. humiliating, certainly. But not fatal.

But if you read on into the future relationship it does deliver an end to paying money, an end to the ECJ oversight and it actually will be a Brexit

Anthracite

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Thought I recognised the name, The Great Panjandrum one of the secret weapons designed for D Day. It went out of control and backfired spectacularly. Bit like Brexit really.

As a metaphor for Brexit, it's perfect. I love the note at the bottom that suggests that looking back, the whole thing must have been a hoax, because there's no way the British could have been so incompetent - that's probably exactly what they will assume about recent political developments in the UK:

The day of the test was described in detail by Brian Johnson, for the 1977 BBC documentary The Secret War:

At first all went well. Panjandrum rolled into the sea and began to head for the shore, the Brass Hats watching through binoculars from the top of a pebble ridge [...] Then a clamp gave: first one, then two more rockets broke free: Panjandrum began to lurch ominously. It hit a line of small craters in the sand and began to turn to starboard, careering towards Klemantaski, who, viewing events through a telescopic lens, misjudged the distance and continued filming. Hearing the approaching roar he looked up from his viewfinder to see Panjandrum, shedding live rockets in all directions, heading straight for him. As he ran for his life, he glimpsed the assembled admirals and generals diving for cover behind the pebble ridge into barbed-wire entanglements. Panjandrum was now heading back to the sea but crashed on to the sand where it disintegrated in violent explosions, rockets tearing across the beach at great speed.

Given the results of the trial, it is perhaps not surprising that the project was scrapped almost immediately over safety concerns. However, it has since been suggested that the entire project was a hoax devised as part of Operation Fortitude, to convince the Germans that plans were being developed to attack the heavily fortified defences surrounding the Pas-de-Calais rather than the less-defended Normandy coastline.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjandrum

Shelga

David Dimbleby on Question Time just let Claire Perry call Jeremy Corbyn an anti-Semite, to distract from her own government's abysmal failure of a deal, and did not challenge her.

How the BBC can pretend to be unbiased after that, I have no idea. If I was Corbyn I would be suing for defamation.

[Deleted User]

Can someone clarify that the CU is in fact only for goods, and this backstop or whatever locks UK services out of the EU until some time in the future when a deal may be made?

Capt'n Midnight

Shelga wrote: »

I'm not so sure people in the Republic would want a united Ireland. I think a lot would have to seriously consider all of the financial implications, never mind the fact that unionists would be up in arms, literally. There are a lot of orange towns in NI that are deeply unpleasant places to even drive through. I don't want that as part of Ireland.

NI is a basket case now.

But it's not that different from down here apart from whether it's Dublin or Westminster calling the shots. Foreign Direct investment into the province would increase if it were part of ROI because it would be like an ROI with cheaper wages at the start. Get people working and social welfare costs drop. Our per capita GDP would drop so some savings on EU contributions.

It would probably be cheaper than the bank bailout, and could break even in a decade.

Parts of Limerick and Dublin aren't nice, just don't go to those places.

EdgeCase

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

We disagree with the concept, much as Ireland did with the UK before independence.

And you are completely free to leave the EU anytime you like. You simply don't get to keep all the benefits. Absolutely nobody is stopping you from leaving the EU. There are simply practical consequences, these are likely to also include profound economic consequences. They're nothing to do with anyone stopping you leaving.

When Ireland attempted to leave the UK you sent over the army, paramilitary police, shelled Dublin and burnt much of Cork City to the ground.

The comparison is utterly ludicrous and shows a total lack of awareness of history.

The EU has absolutely no obligation whatsoever to facilitate a former member other than out of politeness and as a sense of neighbourly friendship and to ensure it doesn't cause regional or global economic shock or at least to attempt to mitigate that.

The moment the UK declared a referendum result the EU started preparing a path for a smooth exit.

They were called names, ranted at, raved at by tabloids and various political figures.

You're free to leave any time! Quite literally nothing is stopping you.

However, a referendum doesn't absolve the UK from practical realities.