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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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Officer Giggles

The pictures would help I suppose

Officer Giggles

Looking for some guidance from some of the knowledgeable folk here please. Must highlight I know very little about the ins and outs of heating.

Just moved into a new house with Oil CH, have never had oil before, house was built around 03-06, literally only got the keys last week. I was thinking I could get tado with two thermostats and an extension kit but now I'm not too sure.

I've attached pictures of what the system consists of.

First picture is the timer with two switches to the left, one switch controls upstairs and the other downstairs. Looks like Hot water is always on if the heating is turned on.

I cannot find a thermostat anywhere in the house.

Second picture is from the wall outside the hot press containing the hot water cylinder.

Third is the boiler out in the shed.

Fourth is the three pumps pipes from the boiler.

I want to be able to control upstairs, downstairs and hot water cyclinder separately, will the tado configuration I suggested work?

Thanks!!!

Bazza32

deezell wrote: »

Any Tado stat can be used just as that, a stat, plus it has programmable timing as well. So for any CH zone, you simply wire the stat in series with the Switched Live for that zone coming from the old programmer. You set that zone to always on, and let the Tado stat take over timing of the zone, plus thermostatic control. Repeat for the second zone.
As you don't have existing pre wired stats upstairs or down, you will have to run cables back to the old controller. The HW timing on the old controller can be left aa is. Theres no point in buying an extension kit if you're not controlling HW timing, other than to use it as a wireless receiver for one of the stats. This would simplify wiring.
You should also consider Nest and Netatmo smart stats. The nest is wireless by design, it comes with an extension box known as Heatlink. The Netatmo also can use it's supplied bridge relay to connect to the old controller zone outputs, locating the stat wirelessly in the zones.
If you want to use Tado, you will need two stats, and if you want to avoid the wiring involved, you would need 2 wireless ext kits to provide wireless connection. However, a single Tado account can only have one extension kit, so one stat will be wired. Otherwise you would end up installing two individual tado accounts, which I'm unsure can be run from the one app.
Wireless multi zone can be handled by Nest, Netatmo and also hive. With nest you just buy a complete Nest per zone, Nests gen 3 about €240 each. With hive its €200 for the first stat/ receiver/ hub, but it's just an additional stat/ receiver per additional zone, €120 each. Hive are throwing in a free Echo dot with the main stat kit.

Thanks for all of that something to ponder. So it sounds like a lot of work. I may look at the evohome solution as well.

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

The latter, it was wired as a single zone with HW and CH together (Terrace house, upstairs heating rarely on so made sense at the time). So based on that, and what I read from above, it looks like there might not be a solution? We have a manual valve to use for turning the radiators off during the summer months, so just ran the boiler for shorter intervals.

If i could just set the nest for time intervals it would be ideal.

Setting the temperature up an down at different intervals is the equivalent, boiler will come on for a higher than ambient temperature, off for lower, rads and HW will heat together, as it previously did. You can close the valve in summer, then only the HW will heat. You can enable rhe HW timer on the stat and cross connect the terminals on rhe heatlink box so either the temperature dependent stat or the HW time slots will fire the boiler. If your CH can be isolated by a valve, you should look into how it is plumbed, as it may be as simple as controlling the circulation pump to get CH, when its off you will have only HW. The HW may require the pump to be on though, if it is equipped with a non return valve.
A much better solution is to get a plumber to replace your manual valve with a motorised one, and with a small change in wiring you will have exactly what you want. Motorised valve as little as €41.
https://www.ie.screwfix.com/horstmann-z222-2-port-motorised-valve.html

budhabob

deezell wrote: »

Did you previously have a two channel timer/controller to independently set HW and CH, or just a single zone timer with maybe a HW -OFF- HW+CH switch. If the former the installer would have connected the separate terminal for a HW motorised valve and would have enabled HW on the stat, which would appear as a Tap icon on the App. If the latter, then its probably wired as single zone with HW and CH together. If you didn't have plumbed independent zones before, the Nest wont add them, but if you had a gravity HW system with separate switch to turn on the CH circulation pump, then I do have a solution to that. Have you still got any of the old controller or stat to send a picture.

The latter, it was wired as a single zone with HW and CH together (Terrace house, upstairs heating rarely on so made sense at the time). So based on that, and what I read from above, it looks like there might not be a solution? We have a manual valve to use for turning the radiators off during the summer months, so just ran the boiler for shorter intervals.

If i could just set the nest for time intervals it would be ideal.

deezell

budhabob wrote: »

Nest query:

Just had nest installed last week by electric Ireland, getting our heads around it and like it, however, I'm not sure how it'll work in the spring / summer months. So we have a single zone / hot water. Can set the schedule based on temp, but how do we set it in the summer months when rads will be off and only want hot water for shower? Have looked at the site and says 3rd gen is capable of this, but it's not clear on the app how it's done.

(Apologies if this is a stupid question)

Did you previously have a two channel timer/controller to independently set HW and CH, or just a single zone timer with maybe a HW -OFF- HW+CH switch. If the former the installer would have connected the separate terminal for a HW motorised valve and would have enabled HW on the stat, which would appear as a Tap icon on the App. If the latter, then its probably wired as single zone with HW and CH together. If you didn't have plumbed independent zones before, the Nest wont add them, but if you had a gravity HW system with separate switch to turn on the CH circulation pump, then I do have a solution to that. Have you still got any of the old controller or stat to send a picture.

budhabob

Nest query:

Just had nest installed last week by electric Ireland, getting our heads around it and like it, however, I'm not sure how it'll work in the spring / summer months. So we have a single zone / hot water. Can set the schedule based on temp, but how do we set it in the summer months when rads will be off and only want hot water for shower? Have looked at the site and says 3rd gen is capable of this, but it's not clear on the app how it's done.

(Apologies if this is a stupid question)

deezell

Bazza32 wrote: »

I have been reading a number of the previous posts, and Tado seems to cause some confusion about what the do and don't support. Even down to the web site contradicting the telephone support. I was about to invest in a Tado last week, until I called their support, and was told that their system would not work for me.

I currently have the following:

Gas fired CH/HW, controlled by a three channel Horstmann Channelplus H37XL, the boiler is a Glo Worm Flexicom 30sx.

Channel 1: Heats downstairs (8 rads)
Channel 2: Heats upstairs (4 rads)
Channel 3: Hot Water - but is permanently off, as we have Thermodynamic Solar Panels - https://www.lvprenewables.ie/thermodynamic-solar-panels/. This would only be used if we ever need to top up, and have not needed to do so, 1 year in.

I have no thermostat currently upstairs or downstairs.

To get started, I was going to get the Tado Smart Thermostat + Extension Kit, as the website seems to say it would be suitable. I was then going to add their smart radiator thermostats, and possibly another stat over time. All of the rads currently have Manual TRV's on them.

Having spoken to their support, they say my system is not compatible with Tado, and I would have to start hard wiring the thermostats in, as I could not go with the wireless option. Also not sure the extension kit supports 3 channels either.

So looking for options. The Tado support guy, seemed to suggest that this was a common setup for Irish homes, so I am assuming people on here have got some workarounds.

Any Tado stat can be used just as that, a stat, plus it has programmable timing as well. So for any CH zone, you simply wire the stat in series with the Switched Live for that zone coming from the old programmer. You set that zone to always on, and let the Tado stat take over timing of the zone, plus thermostatic control. Repeat for the second zone.
As you don't have existing pre wired stats upstairs or down, you will have to run cables back to the old controller. The HW timing on the old controller can be left aa is. Theres no point in buying an extension kit if you're not controlling HW timing, other than to use it as a wireless receiver for one of the stats. This would simplify wiring.
You should also consider Nest and Netatmo smart stats. The nest is wireless by design, it comes with an extension box known as Heatlink. The Netatmo also can use it's supplied bridge relay to connect to the old controller zone outputs, locating the stat wirelessly in the zones.
If you want to use Tado, you will need two stats, and if you want to avoid the wiring involved, you would need 2 wireless ext kits to provide wireless connection. However, a single Tado account can only have one extension kit, so one stat will be wired. Otherwise you would end up installing two individual tado accounts, which I'm unsure can be run from the one app.
Wireless multi zone can be handled by Nest, Netatmo and also hive. With nest you just buy a complete Nest per zone, Nests gen 3 about €240 each. With hive its €200 for the first stat/ receiver/ hub, but it's just an additional stat/ receiver per additional zone, €120 each. Hive are throwing in a free Echo dot with the main stat kit.

Bazza32

I have been reading a number of the previous posts, and Tado seems to cause some confusion about what the do and don't support. Even down to the web site contradicting the telephone support. I was about to invest in a Tado last week, until I called their support, and was told that their system would not work for me.

I currently have the following:

Gas fired CH/HW, controlled by a three channel Horstmann Channelplus H37XL, the boiler is a Glo Worm Flexicom 30sx.

Channel 1: Heats downstairs (8 rads)
Channel 2: Heats upstairs (4 rads)
Channel 3: Hot Water - but is permanently off, as we have Thermodynamic Solar Panels - https://www.lvprenewables.ie/thermodynamic-solar-panels/. This would only be used if we ever need to top up, and have not needed to do so, 1 year in.

I have no thermostat currently upstairs or downstairs.

To get started, I was going to get the Tado Smart Thermostat + Extension Kit, as the website seems to say it would be suitable. I was then going to add their smart radiator thermostats, and possibly another stat over time. All of the rads currently have Manual TRV's on them.

Having spoken to their support, they say my system is not compatible with Tado, and I would have to start hard wiring the thermostats in, as I could not go with the wireless option. Also not sure the extension kit supports 3 channels either.

So looking for options. The Tado support guy, seemed to suggest that this was a common setup for Irish homes, so I am assuming people on here have got some workarounds.

squa

Loving the beermat and biro reference because after all that I surely owe you a few beers!

Once again I appreciate the time you've taken to explain this in detail. I've gone from about a 30% knowledge of my heating system to 80% in 3 of your posts!! I'll use my brother-in-law to help fill in the blanks around SL etc. I'm sure it will make perfect sense to him.

It's time for me to get off the pot on this one and decide which route I want to go. Which will ultimately be decide by how much I'm willing to invest.

Thanks again deezell.

deezell

squa wrote: »

Wow, a serious reply there deezell. Thanks for going into so much detail about what's required to achieve the correct firing if I want 3 independent zones using a new relay box. Not sure I'd have the confidence to wire that in myself, but my brother in law is a sparks so might call in a favour if I decide to go down that route.

Attached is a picture of my pump arrangement. Maybe that helps to answer if HW is possible as an independent zone form CH or always has to be on as a function of the boiler. Using the existing stats I figured out that both pumps to the right are CH. One was obviously replaced at some stage prior to me buying the house as its much newer.

If I was to back things up a little on this project. Do you know of any product that's available whereby I could just upgrade the existing control unit, keeping the current CH/HW arrangement, but the new product allows me do connect to it using an app so I can remotely turn on CH/HW as required?

Or am I limited to using a Smart Stat with the need to upgrade to an NGR relay etc?

Ok, it looks like you have 3 independent pumped zones. I can see the arrowed Non Return Valves (NRVs) on the CH zones. I dont see one on the HW pipes, this is probably deliberate to provide some kind of gravity or bypass circulation to boiler, otherwise there would be no flow circuit from boiler hot out back to cold if no pumps were operating to push open the NRVs. Pumps themselves when off are open to flow. In a motorised valved system there would normally be a small bypass pipe on the boiler, you may already have this. If there is no NRV on the HW loop, operating the two CH pumps while HW is off will have the effect of pulling the heating water backwards through the cylinder coil, effectively cooling it. This could be a nuisance unless the cylinder also has a cheap mechanical stat added to turn on it's pump (provided its timer is on). These are some of the plumbing issues in a pumped zoned system.
Your current setup always runs the HW pump when firing the boiler. I can see two wires exiting your controller on HW terminal 1, I'm betting one goes to the HW pump and one to fire the boiler.
As I stated earlier, the next generation controllers up from yours such as this, output a SL per zone,

one per pump or valve, but with a pumped system you need to combine these via relays to fire the boiler. These type of controllers are also available with internet apps and wireless stats, under the Ember brand, but they are not smart controllers, just app controlled versions of basic timers.
I referred to versions of the above which have a mode switch for gravity mode. In this mode each separate zone timer will turn on its SL, but the one designated HW will turn on for any timed event, so thus would replicate your current arrangement, HW on for any HW or CH timed event. I'd have to dig to find a current 3 zone controller with a gravity mode switch.
There is a discontinued system called Systemlink Homezone (I have one), which consisted of a 3 zone controller with a low voltage cable to a lex relay box. About €300, I see it now for €80.
https://www.mdoshea.ie/systemlink-homezone-3-zone-heating-programmer-and-controller
This is not a smart programmer, but you can incorporate smart stats in place of the manual ones. It also has a built in stat for the living zone, which can be used or disabled if you later fit a smart one. At €80 its less than the cost of the relay box alone, it could be a good starting point for you.

Final option is any combination of 2 smart stats with a HW option. Hive, Nest, Tado etc. You get 3 SLs from this and you connect to a relay box to get one SL for the boiler.

Now it may be possible using 2 Tado stats and the Tado ext kit to dispense with the relay box, as the Tado ext. kit can be programmed by tado support to operate in Gravity mode. In this arrangement the HW relay on the ext. kit operates for HW calls and also for calls from either of the 2 stats, so its connection is used to fire the boiler. The stats' own contacts are used to operate the CH zone pumps. You always have HW with CH in this case, as you currently have, but the wiring is minimal and your zones have full smart control. Its an option.
My recommendation? Get 2 smart stats, and get a mechanical cylinder stat. Connect all 3 to the first relay lex box I posted, the NRG one. Each zone will be independent, HW will fire the boiler according to the cylinder stat. If you want timing of the HW, use the respective smart stats receiver relay. This relay box is part of Nest, it's the optional ext. kit in tado, it's the 2 channel wireless receiver of Hive. Youll need 2 Nest kits, expensive, or 2 tado or hive stats with one of their ext kits/ 2 channel receivers respectively.
Sorry about the long winded reply, but It's important to paint a complete picture of options. It'd be easier if we were chatting in the pub with a beermat and a biro, but here we just have words.

squa

Wow, a serious reply there deezell. Thanks for going into so much detail about what's required to achieve the correct firing if I want 3 independent zones using a new relay box. Not sure I'd have the confidence to wire that in myself, but my brother in law is a sparks so might call in a favour if I decide to go down that route.

Attached is a picture of my pump arrangement. Maybe that helps to answer if HW is possible as an independent zone form CH or always has to be on as a function of the boiler. Using the existing stats I figured out that both pumps to the right are CH. One was obviously replaced at some stage prior to me buying the house as its much newer.

If I was to back things up a little on this project. Do you know of any product that's available whereby I could just upgrade the existing control unit, keeping the current CH/HW arrangement, but the new product allows me do connect to it using an app so I can remotely turn on CH/HW as required?

Or am I limited to using a Smart Stat with the need to upgrade to an NGR relay etc?

deezell

squa wrote: »

Here's the various pictures you requested deezell.....thanks for your time looking at this.

There doesn't appear to be any thermo on the HW cylinder as I can't see any electrical wires coming off the thank. Only copper pipes.

So, you have a fully pumped 3 zone system, 2 CH and 1 HW. You can currently operate these zones partially independently, by turning down either CH zone thermostat to cut off its pump, or by switching both off at the controller by selecting HW only. You can't select either/ both CH without HW being on also. The reason for this is simple. The boiler is fired by the same terminal on the controller that operates the HW pump. The CH switch and stats only operate the CH pumps. The boiler and HW pump must be on to provide heated water to the CH zones. This type of controller was used in gravity systems, and is characterised by this arrangement whereby HW will be on for all timing instances.
Your system has a third pump, and you say this is the HW circuit only pump. I would agree with this although there may be variations in how this is plumbed. What is important is that the CH zones can be made independent.
To have three independent zones in a heating system requires three different timed/stat controlled switched live (SL) outputs to each zones pump. It also require a SL to fire the boiler for any combination of the three zone SLs. Currently you have one timer zone, HW, which fires the boiler, and both your CH zone pumps require this to be on to supply heated water to the CH pumps. If you install a new 3 independently timed zone controller, you can't just combine the 3 SL outputs to fire the boiler as obviously each zone will then operate the others pumps. This is a shortcoming of all zone controllers, in that they don't provide a separate boiler SL which triggers for any zone SL. At most they have a mode switch to turn the HW zone into the common SL for boiler which is how your controller operates. This is not an issue when zones are selected by motorised valves, as each valve (opened by the controller zone SL), has a relay built in to send an isolated SL to the boiler. Any number of these SLs can be combined at the boiler to fire it, without affecting closed valves.
Pumps do not come with relays, so to combine the various pump SLs to a single one for the boiler, we need to use a relay box like this.

This lex box from NRG Awareness can combine 4 zone calls and provides a central wiring station to and from pumps, stats and boiler. About €115 , here,
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product/nrg-lex-system-control-module/

In my last reply I explained how normally a smart stat is simply wired in place of the mechanical stats like you have, and the old controller would be switched to always on. The problem in your case is that the boiler would be permanently on, cycling constantly until its internal stat cut out, while the HW pump would be going all the time.
You'll need an upgrade to your wiring, with the SL provided by 2 smart stats, and a HW stat or smart timed HW relay (or both), being combined to fire the boiler in all cases, while the individual SLs power each zones pump. Such an arrangement will give you 3 independent zones, and will allow CH independent of HW.
You should examine the pipework to determine if the 3rd pump is exclusively feeding the HW cylinder coil, as its possible this pump is a general circulation pump from the boiler, whose flow is then divided and fed direct to the cylinder and via the two CH pumps to the CH zones. If this is the case it complicates things a bit, in that HW is always a function of the boiler firing.
You have a number of options as to which brand of smart stat you chose. Some options depend on how independent your HW control really is, so I'll wait till you can figure you pump arrangements. Once again, a few pics would help.

Clareman

OffalyMedic wrote: »

We've a single zone heating system. Hot water works of CH. Slowly getting the house fully automated. Next thing on my to do list is a smart thermostat. Which would ye recommend Hive or Nest and why?

My heating can't be zoned without massive work on the house so there isn't much point in me getting a Nest but I did loads of research, my parents have EPH Ember which is OK but I was reading guys things about Netatmo and Energia have an offer of a free 1 if you change to them, so I've changed to get the free 1,getting it installed next week

reignschaos

@Deezell Replaced my old stats today with my Tado ones, thanks for your advice on the wiring. Must say the first time I had a 5 minute DIY job that actually took 5 minutes per stat.

Next stage in a week or two will be the extension kit after I get my head around the tado environment.

Appreciate the advice.
Cheers

squa

deezell wrote: »

Picture of boiler controller if you can, make and model also. Is there a stat on the cylinder, or is it just timed from the controller. At the outset, you can just replace the two stats with two smart ones, they will take care of timing and temperature control of the house zones. If the controller you mention is a 3 zone timer device, yoi would normally set this to always on, however, I suspect your current stats only turn on and off the pumps, while the controller fires the boiler, so this arrangement msy be less than perfect. Send me a pic of controller, I'll tell you more then. If you can pop it open and get a pic of woring baseplate, all the better

Here's the various pictures you requested deezell.....thanks for your time looking at this.

There doesn't appear to be any thermo on the HW cylinder as I can't see any electrical wires coming off the thank. Only copper pipes.

deezell

OffalyMedic wrote: »

We've a single zone heating system. Hot water works of CH. Slowly getting the house fully automated. Next thing on my to do list is a smart thermostat. Which would ye recommend Hive or Nest and why?

Hive is extensible to more than one heating zone plus HW, by purchasing an additional stat and receiver. With nest it's one zone plus HW, you need to buy an entire extra nest kit to upgrade to 2 zones. As your HW is tied to your ch, you need at least to separate these with a bit of plumbing, such as a couple of motorized valves. You might want to split the heating into 2 zones, how easy this is depends on the original plumbing. If your plumbing cant be readily or affordably split into zones. the simplest method is single heating zone and smart TRVS on a number of rads. Neither nest or hive do smart TRVs, but Tado and Netatmo and a few others do.
If you are happy with a single heating zone and intend modifying plumbing to separate HW, either will do but Nest wins the beauty contest.

squa

deezell wrote: »

Picture of boiler controller if you can, make and model also. Is there a stat on the cylinder, or is it just timed from the controller. At the outset, you can just replace the two stats with two smart ones, they will take care of timing and temperature control of the house zones. If the controller you mention is a 3 zone timer device, yoi would normally set this to always on, however, I suspect your current stats only turn on and off the pumps, while the controller fires the boiler, so this arrangement msy be less than perfect. Send me a pic of controller, I'll tell you more then. If you can pop it open and get a pic of woring baseplate, all the better

Thanks deezell.

I'll upload some pics of the controller tomorrow, at work now. I'm not sure if there is a stat on the cylinder, but I'll take a look tomorrow and provide a picture also.

OffalyMedic

We've a single zone heating system. Hot water works of CH. Slowly getting the house fully automated. Next thing on my to do list is a smart thermostat. Which would ye recommend Hive or Nest and why?

deezell

squa wrote: »

Sorry to hijack this thread, but seems like this is the best place to get some answers as my heating is system is pretty much as explained by deezell above.

I have OFCH with x3 pumps attached - x2 for upstairs/downstairs CH and x1 for the HW. There's x2 old anologue thermos in the hall and landing, which I assume cut the x2 CH pumps in/out as required. I'm able to fire the HW on it's own without CH in order to heat the water in the cylinder upstairs as I've no immersion or electric showers in the house. For the most part it works well, but what I would like to do is replace the boiler control downstairs with something that has IP/WiFi capabilities so I can remotely control the system via an app.

I've been doing some research online and a lot of these SMART solutions either have the thermo built into the controller for the boiler and/or want to completely take over to make heating more efficient. Having the thermo built into the controller won't really work for me as the controller is in our back kitchen with an indoor boiler located in the press underneath. So this location will warm up much quicker than the rest of the house.

So really what I want to do is just replace the boiler controller, but I'm unsure how many zones the new controller would need to support, 2 or 3? Given that there's actually 3 pumps, it would be great to be able to turn on the upstairs or downstairs CH independently if required. Right now I can only turn on both via a switch on the boiler controller and allow the existing thermos to cut the pumps in and out as required. Then I assume another zone is needed just for the HW.

I'm also happy to update the existing thermos if required, they are wired back to the boiler controller somehow and my basic understanding of CH systems has yet to figure that part out!

Any suggestions re. a controller that might meet my needs?

Many thanks,
Squa

Picture of boiler controller if you can, make and model also. Is there a stat on the cylinder, or is it just timed from the controller. At the outset, you can just replace the two stats with two smart ones, they will take care of timing and temperature control of the house zones. If the controller you mention is a 3 zone timer device, yoi would normally set this to always on, however, I suspect your current stats only turn on and off the pumps, while the controller fires the boiler, so this arrangement msy be less than perfect. Send me a pic of controller, I'll tell you more then. If you can pop it open and get a pic of woring baseplate, all the better

deezell

reignschaos wrote: »

Looking for some wiring assistance. I've eventually gotten hold of my two Tado Thermostats and looking now to install and replace my existing ones.

I popped off the front of my existing ones and was presented with 2 brown wires. My existing thermostats are called flash, see pictures below.

Outside image available here

Inside image available here

Wiring image available here

From what I can see the top brown wire is neutral and the bottom one is Live, however
1. I don't know why the top wire if it's neutral is brown.
2. I don't know what the whistle symbol after the N represents.

My understanding of the tado termostats wiring is

NO - Normal On
NC - Normal Closed
COM - Common
Spare - For parking unused wires.

and based on normal 3 coloured wiring my understanding would be

NO - Normal On - Yellow (Calls Heat)
NC - Normal Closed
COM - Common - Brown (Permanent Live)
Spare - Blue (Neutral)

Based on the wiring of my existing Thermostat my thinking would be

Top Brown = NO - Normal On
Bottom Brown = COM - Permanent Live

But I'm not sure.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
N
Thanks

Look carefully again at the second image. Neutral is not going to the stat, its going into a little image of a burner. Live goes into the stat then back out to the boiler. It couldn't be simpler. Connect the two wires to COM and NO on the tado. It doesnt matter which brown wire goes to either of these, its just a switch. NO is normally open btw.

squa

deezell wrote: »

Can HW only be heated in conjunction with CH? Is it possible to have HW only, during the summer? If this is the case it sounds like a gravity HW system, with CH pumped. In this system HW is always heating once the boiler is fired, but CH only comes on when the CH timer operates a valve/pump. For this you will need the twin zone receiver set in gravity mode. If the entire system is HW and CH always together, then you could just get a single zone receiver. Its possible such a system is installed, with an internally pumped gas or oil boiler CH will always be on as well as HW, but its unlikely that a plumber would leave it like this. Still, some posters here and elsewhere have had just that, the HW being supplied during the summer by electric immersion, as boiler pump/circulation pump always ran when the boiler fired. Come to think of it, it's how our house was setup when we moved in, first thing I had to do was put in a gravity feed to the cylinder to let it heat sans circulation pump
Now would be a good time to get a handle on which way your Ma's is wired and plumbed.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but seems like this is the best place to get some answers as my heating is system is pretty much as explained by deezell above.

I have OFCH with x3 pumps attached - x2 for upstairs/downstairs CH and x1 for the HW. There's x2 old anologue thermos in the hall and landing, which I assume cut the x2 CH pumps in/out as required. I'm able to fire the HW on it's own without CH in order to heat the water in the cylinder upstairs as I've no immersion or electric showers in the house. For the most part it works well, but what I would like to do is replace the boiler control downstairs with something that has IP/WiFi capabilities so I can remotely control the system via an app.

I've been doing some research online and a lot of these SMART solutions either have the thermo built into the controller for the boiler and/or want to completely take over to make heating more efficient. Having the thermo built into the controller won't really work for me as the controller is in our back kitchen with an indoor boiler located in the press underneath. So this location will warm up much quicker than the rest of the house.

So really what I want to do is just replace the boiler controller, but I'm unsure how many zones the new controller would need to support, 2 or 3? Given that there's actually 3 pumps, it would be great to be able to turn on the upstairs or downstairs CH independently if required. Right now I can only turn on both via a switch on the boiler controller and allow the existing thermos to cut the pumps in and out as required. Then I assume another zone is needed just for the HW.

I'm also happy to update the existing thermos if required, they are wired back to the boiler controller somehow and my basic understanding of CH systems has yet to figure that part out!

Any suggestions re. a controller that might meet my needs?

Many thanks,
Squa

reignschaos

Looking for some wiring assistance. I've eventually gotten hold of my two Tado Thermostats and looking now to install and replace my existing ones.

I popped off the front of my existing ones and was presented with 2 brown wires. My existing thermostats are called flash, see pictures below.

Outside image available here

Inside image available here

Wiring image available here

From what I can see the top brown wire is neutral and the bottom one is Live, however
1. I don't know why the top wire if it's neutral is brown.
2. I don't know what the whistle symbol after the N represents.

My understanding of the tado termostats wiring is

NO - Normal On
NC - Normal Closed
COM - Common
Spare - For parking unused wires.

and based on normal 3 coloured wiring my understanding would be

NO - Normal On - Yellow (Calls Heat)
NC - Normal Closed
COM - Common - Brown (Permanent Live)
Spare - Blue (Neutral)

Based on the wiring of my existing Thermostat my thinking would be

Top Brown = NO - Normal On
Bottom Brown = COM - Permanent Live

But I'm not sure.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

THE ALM

deezell wrote: »

Can HW only be heated in conjunction with CH? Is it possible to have HW only, during the summer? If this is the case it sounds like a gravity HW system, with CH pumped. In this system HW is always heating once the boiler is fired, but CH only comes on when the CH timer operates a valve/pump. For this you will need the twin zone receiver set in gravity mode. If the entire system is HW and CH always together, then you could just get a single zone receiver. Its possible such a system is installed, with an internally pumped gas or oil boiler CH will always be on as well as HW, but its unlikely that a plumber would leave it like this. Still, some posters here and elsewhere have had just that, the HW being supplied during the summer by electric immersion, as boiler pump/circulation pump always ran when the boiler fired. Come to think of it, it's how our house was setup when we moved in, first thing I had to do was put in a gravity feed to the cylinder to let it heat sans circulation pump
Now would be a good time to get a handle on which way your Ma's is wired and plumbed.

Thanks deezell, need to do a bit of investigation before I go any further, had just removed the control panel to see how it was wired. I do know the hot water can only be heated with the CH so I think just set up as a single zone, need to do a bit of rootin to be sure.

deezell

THE ALM wrote: »

Thinking of switching my mothers heating controls out for Hive, might stop the calls every so often asking how to set it again!! as I can do it remotely.

Looking at the setup and hive installation it looks like a fairly straight forward swap. Will have to check the next time I visit but I believe that, although it show water and heat, that the two can only be activated together at the same time and hot water can't be controlled independently of the heating.

Have Hive ourselves and find it works great, so I'd be used to the system.Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Can HW only be heated in conjunction with CH? Is it possible to have HW only, during the summer? If this is the case it sounds like a gravity HW system, with CH pumped. In this system HW is always heating once the boiler is fired, but CH only comes on when the CH timer operates a valve/pump. For this you will need the twin zone receiver set in gravity mode. If the entire system is HW and CH always together, then you could just get a single zone receiver. Its possible such a system is installed, with an internally pumped gas or oil boiler CH will always be on as well as HW, but its unlikely that a plumber would leave it like this. Still, some posters here and elsewhere have had just that, the HW being supplied during the summer by electric immersion, as boiler pump/circulation pump always ran when the boiler fired. Come to think of it, it's how our house was setup when we moved in, first thing I had to do was put in a gravity feed to the cylinder to let it heat sans circulation pump
Now would be a good time to get a handle on which way your Ma's is wired and plumbed.

THE ALM

Thinking of switching my mothers heating controls out for Hive, might stop the calls every so often asking how to set it again!! as I can do it remotely.

Looking at the setup and hive installation it looks like a fairly straight forward swap. Will have to check the next time I visit but I believe that, although it show water and heat, that the two can only be activated together at the same time and hot water can't be controlled independently of the heating.

Have Hive ourselves and find it works great, so I'd be used to the system.Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

Noticed this on the Genius Hub website :

"Can the system work with a back boiler in a solid fuel stove/fireplace?"

"No, Genius Home does not work with a back boiler heating system as it cannot control the amount of heat coming from it."

Does a system like this and Evohome not work with a back boiler? I don't understand it.
Is it because the back boiler is delivering heat to a radiator with a smart Trvs and the boiler has no idea what's happening.

Integration of a solid fuel back boiler into a smart stat/trv controlled heating system with another controllable heat source ( oil or gas) is straightforward and independent of the smart stat system. This is because as far as the back boiler is concerned the system is heat source led, the back boiler produces heat so the radiators must heat up regardless of the thermostat setting. This has to happen or you risk boiling the heating water and damaging the plumbing. Normal heating systems are stat or demand led. The timer/stat calls for heat and the boiler comes on to provide it. Integrating the two requires a bit of plumbing to blend the heat sources, and a bit of switching to ensure excess heat from the back boiler is always carried off to some radiators, regardless of stat setting.
Blending can be achieved by switching sources with motorised valves, or by mixing the heated water in a small common tank known as a manifold or neutraliser, from which the mixed sources are drawn off to the rads. if the back boiler is burning fuel the resultant hot water will trigger the circulation pump to dissipate the heat. There must be some rads open without TRVS to ensure this happens. When the back boiler threshold stat activates, this relay can also be used to deactivate call for heat from the oil or gas boiler. This means that a smart stat or trv call for heat will not fire the oil boiler as long as there is back boiler heated water available. When this water is cooled below the back boiler stat threshold, the oil or gas boiler will kick in to supply the call for heat.
Generally this is facilitated using a relay box, which ensures there is always a pumped path for heat regardless of source, and always a gravity path for heat from the back boiler in the event of power failure, plus a pumped path even when stat call for heat is off.
Obviously the system allows room heat to exceed stat settings if the back boiler is burning hard and heating water in excess of radiator requirements, but at that point most users would let the fire die down, or you may even have a stove/ back boiler with a thermostatic controlled air damper which will close off air to the fire to reduce heat output to the rads.
I find my system works seamlessly, with the oil boiler being overridden by the backboiler when the stove is lit, and resuming when the stove fire dies down. Overheating is not an issue as stove output is relatively low and it would struggle to heat all the rads on its own, so it really justs supplements the oil, but quite significantly.
There are excellent sample circuit schematics on the NRG Awareness site here;
https://www.nrgawareness.com/schematics-nrg-zone/
NRG Awareness manufacture the NRG zone mixer manifolds for multiple heat source blending.

john_doe.

john_doe. wrote: »

Some more screenshots of Genius Hub. Lot of options in the app. very impressive app, worth having a look at the demo. No idea how much it costs though

Noticed this on the Genius Hub website :

"Can the system work with a back boiler in a solid fuel stove/fireplace?"

"No, Genius Home does not work with a back boiler heating system as it cannot control the amount of heat coming from it."

Does a system like this and Evohome not work with a back boiler? I don't understand it.
Is it because the back boiler is delivering heat to a radiator with a smart Trvs and the boiler has no idea what's happening.

john_doe.

john_doe. wrote: »

Thanks again for that.
There is a bloody lot of systems out there, I hadnt realised quite so many of the options.

One major one I seem to have missed is Heat Genius or now Called Genius Hub. Looks like it operates on zwave trvs. Customer feedback seems excellent and app looks like its kept updated.

I entered my details to get a demo. Nice app with charts etc. Seems to be kicking around number of years. Wonder does anyone here use it.

Some more screenshots of Genius Hub. Lot of options in the app. very impressive app, worth having a look at the demo. No idea how much it costs though

john_doe.

deezell wrote: »

Eco and Novo both look like community heating TRVs, where heated water flow is independent of TRV demand. This would include normal installations with mechanical Trvs, which also can't fire the boiler. There's obviously a market to replace these with remote programable types, while leaving the boiler firing to a general stat and timer. There is some mention in the Danfoss Link Connect thermostat literature that the Connect thermostat can link to all danfoss TRVS,
"Connect Thermostat
Running on two AA alkaline batteries,
Connect is simple to install and is
compatible with all Danfoss thermostatic
valves, as well as non-Danfoss valves. "
This may enable boiler calling, or it may just mean that the TRVs will control their zone assuming the main stat is firing the boiler generally.
Novo seems to be a startup to manufacture remote controlled programmable TRVs, to replace mechanical ones.
You'd need to do your research on exactly what each device can do. You can buy an electronic programmable version of a TRV for small money, next step up is this with remote programming by app. Next again is integrating boiler control, and after that its the additional sophistication of the controlling software, allowing grouping, enabling TRV as the temp measuring device, slaving many to one etc. It would be easy to confuse a limited function electronic TRV with the integrated products such as netatmo and tado

Thanks again for that.
There is a bloody lot of systems out there, I hadnt realised quite so many of the options.

One major one I seem to have missed is Heat Genius or now Called Genius Hub. Looks like it operates on zwave trvs. Customer feedback seems excellent and app looks like its kept updated.

I entered my details to get a demo. Nice app with charts etc. Seems to be kicking around number of years. Wonder does anyone here use it.