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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

kuro68k wrote: »

The British government is going to take it right to the cliff edge and hope that someone else compromises. Of course they have their excuses already lined up if no-one does, only real question is who they will blame.

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

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Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No we don't have a veto.

While tecnically true, the EU has essentially given us one by committing to not accepting any deal that is unacceptable to Irealnd. I believe both the EU Parliament and the EU Commission have committed themselves to this position.

Enzokk

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If true then the deal is all but done.

With the rumours of the past week or so it does seem that a deal has been agreed between Olly Robbins and his EU counterpart in these negotiations. The problem has always been selling that deal to the HoC to get it through parliament.

charlie14 wrote: »

According to Channel 4 it really was nothing but a wish list.

I think the interesting question is who leaked this paper to the BBC and why? If it is just a wish list then it is nothing to worry about. I wonder if it was leaked by a Brexiteer to derail the plan as any deal that has the support of Labour and the CBI will be on the soft side.

Strazdas

Gintonious wrote: »

Christ almighty, I already knew Piers Morgan was a complete donkey, this just confirms it.

That clown claims to have voted Remain in the referendum. He now sounds more pro-Brexit than Nigel Farage.

Faugheen

Piers Morgan is a troll and is best ignored.

He knows what the problems are, but stating that wouldn't allow him to have the platform he currently provides himself.

Strazdas

Faugheen wrote: »

Piers Morgan is a troll and is best ignored.

He knows what the problems are, but stating that wouldn't allow him to have the platform he currently provides himself.

I'm amazed at all these supposed Remain voters who say "the referendum result be implemented". If you're saying that, then for starters you are now a staunch and committed Brexiteer.

Sam Russell

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm amazed at all these supposed Remain voters who say "the referendum result be implemented". If you're saying that, then for starters you are now a staunch and committed Brexiteer.

Look, it is not possible to appear on TV in Britain this week unless a red poppy is visable on your outfit. No exceptions without huge attacks on social media.

I think remain voters are under similar pressure - best avoided - best get on with it.

A horrid time for British society.

charlie14

Enzokk wrote: »

I think the interesting question is who leaked this paper to the BBC and why? If it is just a wish list then it is nothing to worry about. I wonder if it was leaked by a Brexiteer to derail the plan as any deal that has the support of Labour and the CBI will be on the soft side.

To me it looked like May saying " Listen folks things are going great. I have a deal, but it has to be kept very hush hush. Leaks and all that could mess it all up, but this is is a major victory. Not only will it stun all our detractors but keep us in power for a century. At this stage I can say no more, but as soon as I can this is the schedule for the victory tour"

Bedlam breaks out. Lots of backslapping, hurrahs and a round of For She`s A Jolly Good Fellow.

Walking away from the meeting one attendee, when all the euphoria is abating and he is coming down to Earth, meets a journalist from the BBC and asked how it went. Thinking about it he realises he has been sold the proverbial pup with nothing to feed it other than a fantasy schedule. With the pup being just a proverbial one he realises he does not need the fantasy schedule. Feeling like a fool in the same manner as misery liking company, he gives it to the journalist from the BBC knowing that in a short period of time he is going to have loads of company.

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-brexit-eu-british-government-irish-backstop

Brexit’s slow unravelling was both predictable and avoidable. Officials frequently remark that if they had trusted the UK’s motives and competence, they would have afforded the government more leeway. But instead of building bridges, the UK quickly burned them. The EU now suspects the government will do everything it can to wriggle out of the backstop, and is determined to thwart Britain’s faithlessness with a watertight withdrawal treaty. If, in the final weeks, the EU is holding our feet to the fire, it’s because we have shown it that it must.

The last paragraph in this opinion piece is very interesting. The UK constantly negotiating in bad faith has come home to roost

charlie14

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm amazed at all these supposed Remain voters who say "the referendum result be implemented". If you're saying that, then for starters you are now a staunch and committed Brexiteer.

Picked by Rupert Murdoch as editor of the News of the World and later the Sun, an admirer of Trump and so two faced it must take him half the day to shave, I would not believe for a second that Piers Morgan voted remain.

EdgeCase

Sky's just reporting that the DUP's Arleen Foster is saying we're now on course for a no deal Brexit and is, of course, blaming the Taoiseach.
:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

EdgeCase wrote: »

Sky's just reporting that the DUP's Arleen Foster is saying we're now on course for a no deal Brexit and is, of course, blaming the Taoiseach.
:rolleyes:

Link?

J Mysterio

Gintonious wrote: »

Christ almighty, I already knew Piers Morgan was a complete donkey, this just confirms it.

God bless Soubry. Some people are going to come out of this mess with their head held high. Very few though.

Piers arguing in a dishonest way. Constantly interrupting, changing the subject, ignoring valid points and rebuttals. A while ago I would have said he spent too long in America but this sort of stuff is increadingly prevalent in the UK - shutting down debate by arm waving and appealing to nationalism.

Seth Brundle

EdgeCase wrote: »

Sky's just reporting that the DUP's Arleen Foster is saying we're now on course for a no deal Brexit and is, of course, blaming the Taoiseach.
:rolleyes:

She's been blaming the Taoiseach for a good few things recently.
Nobody pays her any heed IMO

J Mysterio

sink wrote: »

My understanding is that the review mechanism will objectively examine whether conditions have been met whereby the backstop is no longer necessary to maintain an open border. if such conditions have not been met, then the backstop remains in place. That seems fairly innocuous from an Irish perspective.

Such a review mechanism costs us nothing in terms of our goals. If it gives May a little bit more leeway to coax enough MPs to pass the bill, then by all means fire away.

Agreed. It just seems that they are trying to find the right language at the moment... That sounds about right. Fudgey enough.

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-brexit-eu-british-government-irish-backstop

Brexit’s slow unravelling was both predictable and avoidable. Officials frequently remark that if they had trusted the UK’s motives and competence, they would have afforded the government more leeway. But instead of building bridges, the UK quickly burned them. The EU now suspects the government will do everything it can to wriggle out of the backstop, and is determined to thwart Britain’s faithlessness with a watertight withdrawal treaty. If, in the final weeks, the EU is holding our feet to the fire, it’s because we have shown it that it must.

The last paragraph in this opinion piece is very interesting. The UK constantly negotiating in bad faith has come home to roost

Its more that they got into this without a coherent objective, never mind a strategy to achieve it. They are literally making it up as they go along, with all the energy going into trying to hold the cabinet and the party together.

The EU knows this; it has always known it. It has been dealing with weak, incompetent and disorganised governments long enough to know how to deal with them. They hold all the cards - absolutely all of them.

Mr.Nice Guy

According to BBC NI's John Campbell, the DUP have given up trying to persuade May to change her mind on separate regulatory measures.

"Since Raab’s visit to NI on Friday it’s clear a backstop with separate regulatory provisions for NI is in the deal. DUP don’t think they can persuade PM to change her mind on this. They will instead try to work on MPs to vote it down. Where that leaves c&s I don’t know."

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1059864509400145922

Nigel Dodds also tweeting unhappily tonight.

https://twitter.com/NigelDoddsDUP/status/1059931681333919745

It's quite obvious that the DUP are after a No Deal scenario, but they don't want to come out and say that so they'll instead disingenuosly accuse everyone else of bringing it on - the Irish government, Barnier, perhaps even May herself when the time is right to shaft her down the line.

Anthracite

Seth Brundle wrote: »

She's been blaming the Taoiseach for a good few things recently.
Nobody pays her any heed IMO

Yeah, just bluster for a small section of her domestic audience, presumably.

Spook_ie

Oh the wheels of politics they do turn in different directions at the same time.

Pres. Macron wants a new EU army that's ready to stand against Russia,. China and if required the US.

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-for-real-european-army-to-defend-against-russia-and-us-11546376

My only concerns, with Brexit what side would you put the Brits on in any sabre rattling contest if Brexit is a crash out and who is going to foot the increased bill that the EU have budgeted for?

The EU is set to vastly expand its defence budget from 2021, allocating some €13bn (£11.3bn) over seven years to research and develop new equipment.

This is up from less than €600m (£523m) in the current budget.

breatheme

Spook_ie wrote: »

Oh the wheels of politics they do turn in different directions at the same time.

Pres. Macron wants a new EU army that's ready to stand against Russia,. China and if required the US.

He is right in the sense that we can't rely on NATO anymore. Merkel has made similar statements.

My only concerns, with Brexit what side would you put the Brits on in any sabre rattling contest if Brexit is a crash out and who is going to foot the increased bill that the EU have budgeted for?

The EU always operates on a budget surplus. If they allocate that money, it's because they have it. If they don't have it, then they'll allocate less elsewhere.

Dyr

SNIP. No more nonsense one-liners please.

Spook_ie

Bambi wrote: »

The side that will put some jets on their new aircraft carrier?

Maybe we should develop a carrier based Eurofighter, unhappily the EF Typhoon (naval version if it was ever developed ) has no vertical landing capacity so would only be suitable for CATOBAR and STOBAR configured carriers.

France has the FS Charles de Gaulle a CATOBAR configuration but is no longer a party to the EF Typhoon development

The Italian, Spanish and Royal Navy all require STVOL type aircraft like the Lightening F35

EdgeCase

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Link?

report was on air.

Junkyard Tom

Spook_ie wrote: »

Macron wants a new EU army that's ready to stand against Russia,. China and if required the US.

The sooner the better. Europe needs to replace NATO with its own Europe-centred defence capability.

what side would you put the Brits on

I'm fairly sure the Brits would align themselves with the US.

who is going to foot the increased bill that the EU have budgeted for?

Participating states.

Folkstonian

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Spook_ie wrote: »

Macron wants a new EU army that's ready to stand against Russia,. China and if required the US.

The sooner the better. Europe needs to replace NATO with its own Europe-centred defence capability.

what side would you put the Brits on

I'm fairly sure the Brits would align themselves with the US.

who is going to foot the increased bill that the EU have budgeted for?

Participating states.

How willing are European Union countries going to be to stump up the $700 billion that the US ploughs into defence each year?

Peregrinus

Folkstonian wrote: »

How willing are European Union countries going to be to stump up the $700 billion that the US ploughs into defence each year?

Why would they need to do that?

The US spends more on defence than the entire rest of the world put together, which almost certainly means they are spending too much. There is no reason at all why Europe (or anyone else) should adopt the US defence budget as its benchmark.

J Mysterio

Folkstonian wrote: »

How willing are European Union countries going to be to stump up the $700 billion that the US ploughs into defence each year?

Not willing at all. The US is sick and the military industrial complex is a major factor . That is an obcene figure if true.

Folkstonian

why are you opposed to NATO? I would be very interested to know your reasons for wanting it to be removed and replaced as the fundamental pillar to European security.

At its heart it is actually a thoroughly European affair, certainly that is what the US hopes and intends for it to be anyway.

It’s been (and remains) highly effective as a deterrent, has shown flexibility in the face of emerging complex, often unconventional threats, has kept the US firmly engaged in European security, has been an efficient vehicle for cooperation in both the military and political spheres, and so on.. it plays a vital role, every single day actually, from conducting anti submarine patrols between Britain and Norway, to countering cyber threats posed by the likes of China and Russia, to slowly but methodically blowing what remains of IS’s military capabilities into lots of little pieces.

prinzeugen

Bambi wrote: »

The side that will put some jets on their new aircraft carrier?

Got the jets. IOC next year.

If you are old enough to remember, France sold the missiles that sunk their allies in 1982.

France has always been against to protect its own industry. It looks likely the UK will go into partnership with the Swedish and Japan.

Google Frances history with NATO. The last thing the EU needs is an army with nukes that surrender in almost every war they have fought.

France has a history of protectionism. Just look at Simiens and the new EuroStar trains.

The biggest trade barrier is France.

Spook_ie

prinzeugen wrote: »

Got the jets. IOC next year.

If you are old enough to remember, France sold the missiles that sunk their allies in 1982.

France has always been against to protect its own industry. It looks likely the UK will go into partnership with the Swedish and Japan.

Google Frances history with NATO. The last thing the EU needs is an army with nukes that surrender in almost every war they have fought.

France has a history of protectionism. Just look at Simiens and the new EuroStar trains.

The biggest trade barrier is France.

IOC?

RobMc59

Russia is rubbing it's hands with glee at the thought of the collapse of NATO-its all that thwarts it's aspirations of global meddling and mischief-putin is a former KGB spy master so make no mistake,he has NO benevolent or conciliatory feeling towards the EU who would be next in the cross hairs if NATO collapses -he sees it as a threat to his ambitions.