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Consent classes for Irish rugby team

professore

I have nothing much to say on this except that if the prospect of having your reputation and career destroyed and a possible jail sentence don't put you off then some consent classes certainly won't.

A case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. I'm not sure of the value of consent classes - I see them similar to "drink responsibly" or "don't murder anyone" classes.

[url] https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/irfu-tackles-fallout-from-belfast-rape-trial-37491941.html[/url]

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El_Duderino 09

jimgoose wrote: »

Sometimes you'd almost think this modern notion of "consent" is synonymous with "effective communication"!

It is to an extent. It’s also combined with knowing the law and the responsibilities of sex and being able to form your opinion and express it clearly.

It’s hard to express a position if you haven’t thought about it.

Consent is pretty important to the individuals and the PR associated with it is pretty important to the brands. The IRFU is doing a good job of looking out for its players.

LirW

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.
I personally find a lot of things regarding this in the media confusing.
Take the repeal the eighth campaign I heard multiply people saying a woman should have the choice to do anything with her body. You can't really argue with that. Then they were coming out with the line No woman would ever put themselves in a position where they would give consent to group sex. I know people who'd gladly engage in it.
I don't really know how any person in the media could engage in any form of sexual activity to be honest because it could end up ruining there careers.

I think this is the price to pay for having a well-paying job in the spotlight, be it politics, sports or entertainment. One slip and it's over, this is not particularly new. It's just that attitude changed over time, many rockstars wouldn't get away with things anymore they were known for in the 70s or 80s.
I'm not saying that this is right and a "tough, deal with it" situation but it's the reality. And that's why you pay a lot of money to maintain your status by having a good PR team, a manager, a decent attorney and many more people that get you as a personality going.
Your mechanic might get away with some dodgy situation but others can't afford having their face plastered all over the news with a quite negative headline. Nowadays celebrities are better off to keep their political opinion to themselves or their diet. It's not worth the hassle.

PlaneSpeeking

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

and I'm a feminist!! :eek::eek::eek:

Ah you're not all bad!

;);)

Sure I'd have said I was 30 years ago before the lunacy started - getting told you shouldn't be at a cup final because "some bloke could have used that ticket" galvanises you!!!!

Triceratops Ballet

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

That bold part might be the most eminently refreshing and sensible thing I've read on this issue, kudos.

and I'm a feminist!! :eek::eek::eek:

PlaneSpeeking

jimgoose wrote: »

Sometimes you'd almost think this modern notion of "consent" is synonymous with "effective communication"!

If it was, then I'd be an enthusiastic cheerleader for it, sadly I fear some sections of society like LON, UM, RMcC etc etc have a more nefarious agenda in mind.

PlaneSpeeking

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Are you not a feminist? You live and learn.

Between the sex and the WhatsApp exchange, they did lose their job. That might surprise you to know that can happen. You still seem to find it hard to fathom. That’s why the consent and related discussion is necessary. Particularly for people in the public eye who represent organisations.

This really isn’t a feminist issue. It’s just the IRFU looking out for its players and itself.

Nope, definitely not a feminist - in the current sense of the word; I believe in pure equality and no special steps up for anyone.

I also think it's sad how women have fought tooth and nail to be taken seriously in every walk of life and yet are infantalised as "the perpetual victims" by some feminists.

That line about group sex. How does that person know ? THEY might never consent but perhaps millions would.

jimgoose

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

That bold part might be the most eminently refreshing and sensible thing I've read on this issue, kudos.

Sometimes you'd almost think this modern notion of "consent" is synonymous with "effective communication"!

PlaneSpeeking

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

In a perfect world we'd go back in a time machine and we'd all have these lessons in school and we'd have a much better attitude to sex and a much healthier discourse around the subject in general, but we don't have a time machine and unfortunately somebody has to be the first.

IMO consent is a two way street, but from my own experience nobody seemed to be willing to tell young girls to be open to and embrace their sexuality, the message is very much focused on the bad outcomes of sex (teen pregnancy and disease) if kids, of both genders were taught to own their sexuality and had open conversations about the same and understood how to give and attain consent things would be much clearer for everyone.
(actually even the word consent implies it's something that's being taken from one person to benefit the other rather than it being a shared experience)

That bold part might be the most eminently refreshing and sensible thing I've read on this issue, kudos.

freshpopcorn

LirW wrote: »

I wouldn't say you can't allow it because it's up to them but it might be unwise for certain people to engage in casual sex with strangers because of their status. Simply because there's a serious risk to leave themselves vunerable to exploitation and could ruin their hard earned reputation.
In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but we're not living on a rainbow farm so it's probably in their own best interest to think hard about your actions.

That is probably basic PR 101 when representing a sport institution.

Thanks for the reply.
I personally find a lot of things regarding this in the media confusing.
Take the repeal the eighth campaign I heard multiply people saying a woman should have the choice to do anything with her body. You can't really argue with that. Then they were coming out with the line No woman would ever put themselves in a position where they would give consent to group sex. I know people who'd gladly engage in it.
I don't really know how any person in the media could engage in any form of sexual activity to be honest because it could end up ruining there careers.

El_Duderino 09

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Phrase it whatever way you like. I bet paddy Jackson didn’t know the risks he was taking and he paid a high price.

Im a rugby fan and hated to see things unfold as they did with Jackson. I’m delighted the IRFU is looking after it’s players.

There’s no need to turn everything into a feminism issue. This is the IRFU protecting its players and its reputation. Makes good sense to me.

Believe me, I'm no feminist!

My point stands, why should there have been risks to having sex with an enthusiastic partner and those "risks" only borne by men ?

Are you not a feminist? You live and learn.

Between the sex and the WhatsApp exchange, they did lose their job. That might surprise you to know that can happen. You still seem to find it hard to fathom. That’s why the consent and related discussion is necessary. Particularly for people in the public eye who represent organisations.

This really isn’t a feminist issue. It’s just the IRFU looking out for its players and itself.

Triceratops Ballet

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I'm yet to be convinced why SOME men (not all) are to attend these mandatory brainwashing sessions classes. What good can they do if consent is not a two way street - i.e. are you giving consent when you don't mean to? Does your behaviour and words indicate a giving of consent ?

That kind of thing.

In a perfect world we'd go back in a time machine and we'd all have these lessons in school and we'd have a much better attitude to sex and a much healthier discourse around the subject in general, but we don't have a time machine and unfortunately somebody has to be the first.

IMO consent is a two way street, but from my own experience nobody seemed to be willing to tell young girls to be open to and embrace their sexuality, the message is very much focused on the bad outcomes of sex (teen pregnancy and disease) if kids, of both genders were taught to own their sexuality and had open conversations about the same and understood how to give and attain consent things would be much clearer for everyone.
(actually even the word consent implies it's something that's being taken from one person to benefit the other rather than it being a shared experience)

PlaneSpeeking

LirW wrote: »

I wouldn't say you can't allow it because it's up to them but it might be unwise for certain people to engage in casual sex with strangers because of their status. Simply because there's a serious risk to leave themselves vunerable to exploitation and could ruin their hard earned reputation.
In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but we're not living on a rainbow farm so it's probably in their own best interest to think hard about your actions.

That is probably basic PR 101 when representing a sport institution.

But whilst losing the McDonald's gig might be a worry, losing 5 years in jail, one's reputation and livelihood should not be.

LirW

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm not not nit picking at you now but do you think people in the public eye shouldn't be allowed to use certain words in texts or shouldn't be allowed to take part in different sexual experiences. Would any of these thing even be discussed in consent class.

I wouldn't say you can't allow it because it's up to them but it might be unwise for certain people to engage in casual sex with strangers because of their status. Simply because there's a serious risk to leave themselves vunerable to exploitation and could ruin their hard earned reputation.
In a perfect world this wouldn't happen but we're not living on a rainbow farm so it's probably in their own best interest to think hard about your actions.

That is probably basic PR 101 when representing a sport institution.

PlaneSpeeking

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm not not nit picking at you now but do you think people in the public eye shouldn't be allowed to use certain words in texts or shouldn't be allowed to take part in different sexual experiences. Would any of these thing even be discussed in consent class.

I highly doubt it - a colleague believes the gist of them should be directed solely at young men and also believes that even if a woman consents the night before and "realises she would probably not have consented" the next day, then that is rape.

But then the mad mare thinks wolf whistling is sexual assault ffs!

freshpopcorn

LirW wrote: »

At the end of the day the players are in the spotlight and hugely popular, they are the faces of a lot of reputable companies and all that returns excellent revenue. They are idols to a lot of children out there and the IRFU as well as the clubs are very family friendly institutions that include children, men and women.
They'd be stupid to have their reputation ruined because of scandalous headlines, often the outcome doesn't matter but the damage is done when you have a header like "Paddy Jackson on trial for rape accusations".
Sponsors do not want to be associated with that and cut ties and will eventually send their money elsewhere.

I am by the way in total favour of consent classes in schools for all children.
But especially people in the public spotlight need to know better and they need to know how to not get into situations like that in the first place because it can quickly get out of control.

I'm not not nit picking at you now but do you think people in the public eye shouldn't be allowed to use certain words in texts or shouldn't be allowed to take part in different sexual experiences. Would any of these thing even be discussed in consent class.

PlaneSpeeking

LirW wrote: »

At the end of the day the players are in the spotlight and hugely popular, they are the faces of a lot of reputable companies and all that returns excellent revenue. They are idols to a lot of children out there and the IRFU as well as the clubs are very family friendly institutions that include children, men and women.
They'd be stupid to have their reputation ruined because of scandalous headlines, often the outcome doesn't matter but the damage is done when you have a header like "Paddy Jackson on trial for rape accusations".
Sponsors do not want to be associated with that and cut ties and will eventually send their money elsewhere.

I am by the way in total favour of consent classes in schools for all children.
But especially people in the public spotlight need to know better and they need to know how to not get into situations like that in the first place because it can quickly get out of control.

I'm yet to be convinced why SOME men (not all) are to attend these mandatory brainwashing sessions classes. What good can they do if consent is not a two way street - i.e. are you giving consent when you don't mean to? Does your behaviour and words indicate a giving of consent ?

That kind of thing.

jimgoose

Wibbs wrote: »

...it seems what really winds people up is apparent hypocrisy.

Precisely. In the heel of the hunt, when all is said and done, what the vast majority of regular ratepayers really can't stand is a pampered, sanctimonious little bollix who doesn't even believe his own spiel.

Wibbs

LirW wrote: »

At the end of the day the players are in the spotlight and hugely popular, they are the faces of a lot of reputable companies and all that returns excellent revenue. They are idols to a lot of children out there and the IRFU as well as the clubs are very family friendly institutions that include children, men and women.
They'd be stupid to have their reputation ruined because of scandalous headlines, often the outcome doesn't matter but the damage is done when you have a header like "Paddy Jackson on trial for rape accusations".
Sponsors do not want to be associated with that and cut ties and will eventually send their money elsewhere.

Pretty much. Areas of life like that that are supposed to be clean wholesome stuff won't take kindly to anything that upsets the illusion. Look at the #metoo scandal. Muppets in Hollywood were hit very hard by it, because they're constantly telegraphing a right on message. Whereas vanishingly few old style rock stars were even mentioned. Even when people like David Bowie and Jimmy Page and a fair few others had a liking for very young women at times and it was out in the open for years? Nada. It's expected of sex, drugs and rock and roll types(unless they're Black). So what are you gonna do, rocker's gonna rock. As much as any alleged or otherwise assaults, it seems what really winds people up is apparent hypocrisy.

Triceratops Ballet

LirW wrote: »

At the end of the day the players are in the spotlight and hugely popular, they are the faces of a lot of reputable companies and all that returns excellent revenue. They are idols to a lot of children out there and the IRFU as well as the clubs are very family friendly institutions that include children, men and women.
They'd be stupid to have their reputation ruined because of scandalous headlines, often the outcome doesn't matter but the damage is done when you have a header like "Paddy Jackson on trial for rape accusations".
Sponsors do not want to be associated with that and cut ties and will eventually send their money elsewhere.

I am by the way in total favour of consent classes in schools for all children.
But especially people in the public spotlight need to know better and they need to know how to not get into situations like that in the first place because it can quickly get out of control.

Totally agree, and I'm really surprised it wasn't included in a PR package on "how to represent the brand" prior to this it seems like a no brainer to me. I even had to go to an ethics and professional conduct session as part of my induction in work

LirW

At the end of the day the players are in the spotlight and hugely popular, they are the faces of a lot of reputable companies and all that returns excellent revenue. They are idols to a lot of children out there and the IRFU as well as the clubs are very family friendly institutions that include children, men and women.
They'd be stupid to have their reputation ruined because of scandalous headlines, often the outcome doesn't matter but the damage is done when you have a header like "Paddy Jackson on trial for rape accusations".
Sponsors do not want to be associated with that and cut ties and will eventually send their money elsewhere.

I am by the way in total favour of consent classes in schools for all children.
But especially people in the public spotlight need to know better and they need to know how to not get into situations like that in the first place because it can quickly get out of control.

jimgoose

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Believe me, I'm no feminist!

My point stands, why should there have been risks to having sex with an enthusiastic partner and those "risks" only borne by men ?

I've just thought, it would be even better if people were made to wear those fanny suits that they had in America that time, while attending these classes.

PlaneSpeeking

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Phrase it whatever way you like. I bet paddy Jackson didn’t know the risks he was taking and he paid a high price.

Im a rugby fan and hated to see things unfold as they did with Jackson. I’m delighted the IRFU is looking after it’s players.

There’s no need to turn everything into a feminism issue. This is the IRFU protecting its players and its reputation. Makes good sense to me.

Believe me, I'm no feminist!

My point stands, why should there have been risks to having sex with an enthusiastic partner and those "risks" only borne by men ?

El_Duderino 09

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well as I asked above,
As I said above, “Do you think the Belfast lads knew they were risking their careers when they were having sex with the wan or sending WhatsApp messages the next day?”

Because that’s what happened.

And I fail to see how a class in something that shouldn't happen, can happen.

They aren't the one's who need education - clearly the f**ked up society that automatically demonises men's sexuality does.

Phrase it whatever way you like. I bet paddy Jackson didn’t know the risks he was taking and he paid a high price.

Im a rugby fan and hated to see things unfold as they did with Jackson. I’m delighted the IRFU is looking after it’s players.

There’s no need to turn everything into a feminism issue. This is the IRFU protecting its players and its reputation. Makes good sense to me.

PlaneSpeeking

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well as I asked above,
As I said above, “Do you think the Belfast lads knew they were risking their careers when they were having sex with the wan or sending WhatsApp messages the next day?”

Because that’s what happened.

And I fail to see how a class in something that shouldn't happen, can happen.

They aren't the one's who need education - clearly the f**ked up society that automatically demonises men's sexuality does.

El_Duderino 09

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Why should an experience of consensual sex lead to one's career being ruined ?

If these classes also involved women and reminded them that enthusiastically consenting the night before and experiencing regret the next day is NOT rape and never will be - that would be a start.

Well as I asked above,
As I said above, “Do you think the Belfast lads knew they were risking their careers when they were having sex with the wan or sending WhatsApp messages the next day?”

Because that’s what happened.

PlaneSpeeking

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And would you both consider yourselves to be experts in the law regarding consent?

Do you think the Belfast lads knew they were risking their careers when they were having sex with the wan or sending WhatsApp messages the next day?

I’d bet anything that paddy Jackson wishes he had those discussions beforehand. I would say he’d most likely still be playing with ulster abc Ireland if he had known the risks.

Why should an experience of consensual sex lead to one's career being ruined ?

If these classes also involved women and reminded them that enthusiastically consenting the night before and experiencing regret the next day is NOT rape and never will be - that would be a start.

El_Duderino 09

Paulzx wrote: »

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

...Raised well, I'd consider myself a balanced individual who doesn't force himself upon anyone and knows what boundaries are and what no means.

I would be of the same opinion. I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong. It's an insult to basically be regarded as a potential rapist and to be told you need programming to ensure it doesn't happen.

And would you both consider yourselves to be experts in the law regarding consent?

Do you think the Belfast lads knew they were risking their careers when they were having sex with the wan or sending WhatsApp messages the next day?

I’d bet anything that paddy Jackson wishes he had those discussions beforehand. I would say he’d most likely still be playing with ulster abc Ireland if he had known the risks.

Ri_Nollaig

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And plenty of women (myself included) would rather choke than be considered a feminist.

'Feminism' originally meant equally, for both sexes. Something I think the vast majority of men would find hard to disagree with and would want in 2018.

As that has been reached it has now extended to basically 'special treatment' for women and a case of 'lets swing the pendulum back the other direction'. Infact, very ironic considering what 'Feminism' once meant, but an irony that seems to escape the types who are trying to push for consent re-education classes, gender quotes, pay gap etc.

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Is the irony in that these consent classes have to be mandatory and forced on men not lost on people?

You aren't allowed to refuse consent to take part in consent classes.

Yes! I thought of that too and when this was being forced on collage [male] students.
Irony for all!

But its grand, some head of some quango/ngo that is looking to justify her funding for the coming year just coincidentally released some report that said it was needed.

[Deleted User]

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Oh ffs.

Explain.

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

Which bit? When he admits he raped yer one?

Oh ffs.