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The End for Youghal?

Isambard

and other lines

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/midleton-youghal-line-may-formally-shut/2572831/

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Itssoeasy

Isambard wrote: »

rather confirms my suspicions about peoples motives for wanting a railway re-opened.

There are buses available which are hard to tell from a LUAS. All you need is a guidance system and there's your railway without the rails. I can't see how it can't be anything but cheaper than installing conventional tracks. A Trolleybus system if you like.

Right yeah you've got all of us who want the railway line preserved banged to rights. You've seen right through our plan of helping an area and a population base potentially be fully connected by as many modes of transport as possible. I feel the shame now that it's been exposed.

whisky_galore

marno21 wrote: »

Ripping up railways that are extensions of newly developed commuter rail routes which directly connect into the city centre of Ireland's 2nd city, and pass through three major employment centres is daft. Absolutely daft.

I fear a lot of the pro-greenway ideology for here is because "sure we'll never see trains again".

Greenways on railways such as the one to Achill Island and Valentia Island make sense but hardly here.

A lot of the greenway users are people who never use public transport anyway, having a big old SUV to carry themselves and their offspring everywhere, bringing out the bikes on the weekend as a sop to being 'green'

Itssoeasy

Isambard wrote: »

would it not make more sense to be extending rail along the quays and through the City Centre? Just one project I'd rank above Youghal.
If trackless buses don't float your boat, how about converting the Midleton and Cobh branches to Light Rapid Transit?

Through the city centre ? Ah yeah let's do that and see who that works with Patrick's car free at times and see how a railway along the quays at 5pm on a Friday ?

Have trackless buses been trailed or installed anywhere on this island of Ireland yet ? If not let's shunt before we run at high speed please.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

would it not make more sense to be extending rail along the quays and through the City Centre? Just one project I'd rank above Youghal.
If trackless buses don't float your boat, how about converting the Midleton and Cobh branches to Light Rapid Transit?

I agree with improved rail access within Cork city, but there aren't any plans to change the use of railway alignments in Cork City at present. I think that a light rail system from Ballincollig through the city to the Docklands and onto Mahon is high priority, certainly above Youghal in priority terms. There should also be appropriate zoning along the route to concentrate business and residential developments along it. Unfortunately, this seems above the ambition of the people involved at present.

I'm not sure what the benefits of converting the Cobh and Midleton branches would be. I would much prefer if that money was spent on electrifying them and working on stations at Tivoli West, Tivoli East, Tullagreen and the Amgen site when occupied, along with possibly a P&R between Midleton station and the Amgen site located with access to the planned grade seperated junction to be built as part of the N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton upgrade.

Reputable Rog

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with improved rail access within Cork city, but there aren't any plans to change the use of railway alignments in Cork City at present. I think that a light rail system from Ballincollig through the city to the Docklands and onto Mahon is high priority, certainly above Youghal in priority terms. There should also be appropriate zoning along the route to concentrate business and residential developments along it. Unfortunately, this seems above the ambition of the people involved at present.

I'm not sure what the benefits of converting the Cobh and Midleton branches would be. I would much prefer if that money was spent on electrifying them and working on stations at Tivoli West, Tivoli East, Tullagreen and the Amgen site when occupied, along with possibly a P&R between Midleton station and the Amgen site located with access to the planned grade seperated junction to be built as part of the N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton upgrade.

That's a lot of stations and stops within a small area.

marno21

Reputable Rog wrote: »

That's a lot of stations and stops within a small area.

It is. However, that's what makes a successful, useful commuter rail service. I'm suggesting electrifying the line to improve acceleration.

Having commuter rail services run through centres of employment or dense residential areas without stopping is daft.

Isambard

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Through the city centre ? Ah yeah let's do that and see who that works with Patrick's car free at times and see how a railway along the quays at 5pm on a Friday ?

Have trackless buses been trailed or installed anywhere on this island of Ireland yet ? If not let's shunt before we run at high speed please.

they call it LUAS in Dublin.
No but it can't be that technologically difficult, I bet it's already been done somewhere so it wouldn't matter if it had been done on this island before surely.

GM228

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Irish-Rail-rules-out-reopening-Youghal-to-Midleton-line-backs-greenway-development-ab7405d7-9c9a-485c-888c-89921c20d834-ds

First paragraph says it all.

IRISH Rail has said reopening the Youghal to Midleton railway is “not realistic” and is supportive of establishing a greenway along the route.

Reputable Rog

Isambard wrote: »

they call it LUAS in Dublin.
No but it can't be that technologically difficult, I bet it's already been done somewhere so it wouldn't matter if it had been done on this island before surely.

LUAS is not trackless.

marno21

GM228 wrote: »

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Irish-Rail-rules-out-reopening-Youghal-to-Midleton-line-backs-greenway-development-ab7405d7-9c9a-485c-888c-89921c20d834-ds

First paragraph says it all.

This is not, nor should it be, a decision for Irish Rail. Barry Kenny's opinion on this matter is irrelevant.

GM228

marno21 wrote: »

This is not, nor should it be, a decision for Irish Rail. Barry Kenny's opinion on this matter is irrelevant.

It is a decision for CIE who have the statutory authority to formally abandon the line or licence them for other uses if they so wish.

Barry Kenny represents IEs stance as their official spokesperson, it's not his personal opinion.

Del.Monte

GM228 wrote: »

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Irish-Rail-rules-out-reopening-Youghal-to-Midleton-line-backs-greenway-development-ab7405d7-9c9a-485c-888c-89921c20d834-ds

First paragraph says it all.

CIE don't like reopening lines and they have to be instructed to do things. They have a defeatist mentality and regard rail lines, buildings, trains and staff as a liability rather than an asset.

Markcheese

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE don't like reopening lines and they have to be instructed to do things. They have a defeatist mentality and regard rail lines, buildings, trains and staff as a liability rather than an asset.

I tend to agree with you... But in this case they're spot on. There are formulas out there that include population density, (which is not high), destinations (employment, college, hospitals) and loads of other stuff.. If Cork city and County councils thought they could make a case for reopening youghal in the medium term they'd be all over it like a rash... The mass transit project theyre trying to push along is BRT city to ballincolig, they'd love to do carrigaline - city - ballincolig. Via docklands with a pedestrian bridge to Kent station, but theyre struggling to get journey generation on the carrigaline bit.. Or were several years back... Their east Cork plans include more ststions and development along the current Midleton line,

Reputable Rog

[QUOTE=Markcheese;108512585 Their east Cork plans include more ststions and development along the current Midleton line,[/QUOTE]

Tell us more

Infini

Information isn't wrong though. The whole issue is that they can't afford to reopen line's unless the government make funds available to do so. The truth is that while it's great reopening these old closed line's if the planning and infrastructure isn't done along side it (aka, funding to restore the line + funding to maintain it while other infrastructure like housing, planned settlement's along the line to build population and demand to make it viable) it's not gonna be feasible in the long term.

Markcheese

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Tell us more

I'll see if I can find the stuff on Cork coco proposal for a new town/village at Waterock, (probably examiner), the amgen site (as was) is still being held for industrial development,
No idea what happened to the originally planned second carrigtohil and dunkettle stations,
But there are a couple more proposed stations for docklands (tivoli and silversprings I think),

https://corkcocoplans.ie/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2016/07/Water-Rock-Framework-Masterplan-Document.pdf

I think it's section 1.6 that mentions rail link,

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Location-of-new-Tivoli-train-station-and-Dockland-bridges-to-be-decided-98a974dc-4c1b-4b10-8b48-058c76c641a8-ds

That's a bit old but there is more up to date stuff around,port of Cork are supposed to be moving the Container port within a couple of years..

Reputable Rog

Markcheese wrote: »

I'll see if I can find the stuff on Cork coco proposal for a new town/village at Waterock, (probably examiner), the amgen site (as was) is still being held for industrial development,
No idea what happened to the originally planned second carrigtohil and dunkettle stations,
But there are a couple more proposed stations for docklands (tivoli and silversprings I think),

https://corkcocoplans.ie/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2016/07/Water-Rock-Framework-Masterplan-Document.pdf

I think it's section 1.6 that mentions rail link,

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Location-of-new-Tivoli-train-station-and-Dockland-bridges-to-be-decided-98a974dc-4c1b-4b10-8b48-058c76c641a8-ds

That's a bit old but there is more up to date stuff around,port of Cork are supposed to be moving the Container port within a couple of years..

They are moving hence the need for the M28.
I thought I heard something about plans for Carrigtohill as well.

Isambard

Reputable Rog wrote: »

LUAS is not trackless.

read the posts, not what I said

Markcheese

The old IFI / NET plant is being redeveloped as a bulk handling port, and it still has its rail link, (Cobh line), I can't see the port of Cork being keen on letting that go (even if they never use it),
So the Cobh and Midleton lines are probably safe from being greenway ed,or worse brt'd.. (-:

GM228

Markcheese wrote: »

The old IFI / NET plant is being redeveloped as a bulk handling port, and it still has its rail link, (Cobh line), I can't see the port of Cork being keen on letting that go (even if they never use it),
So the Cobh and Midleton lines are probably safe from being greenway ed,or worse brt'd.. (-:

Probably safe? Of course they are, there is no question of them being closed and there probably never will be as they are fairly successful as lines go.

The old Marino Point IFI plant no longer has it's rail link having been severed and lifted 20 odd years ago, yes the Cobh line runs alongside it, but there is nothing for the Port to let go of, any connection to the main line would require significant investment and negotiation with IE.

Markcheese

The probably comment was firmly tongue in cheek...

Del.Monte

The latest: https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Irish-Rail-rules-out-reopening-Youghal-to-Midleton-line-backs-greenway-development-ab7405d7-9c9a-485c-888c-89921c20d834-ds?fbclid=IwAR01TZ7et8uLqJ8T7uJ8pTH1oO_hn0Eba0egU5q4B2idmsaGoWX1uxj1AZU#.W9xhhj8-d5Y.facebook

Itssoeasy

Top insight from brain trust of Irish rail telling us that the line would need a total refit. And here was me thinking that the overgrowth and all that was some new class of protective covering. I love that they think they'd get it back if needed. Ah there is none so blind as those who cannot see. The greenway crowd won't give it back. I think the philosophy del.monte said that or something more poetic.

whisky_galore

Markcheese wrote: »

The probably comment was firmly tongue in cheek...

There are greenway nutters out there who are proposing greenways on already operational lines. Never say never.

Lord Glentoran

whisky_galore wrote: »

There are greenway nutters out there who are proposing greenways on already operational lines. Never say never.

Shh! You'll wake 'em all up on the WRC thread! :pac:

Markcheese

whisky_galore wrote: »

There are greenway nutters out there who are proposing greenways on already operational lines. Never say never.

True, but theres a few of our barely operational lines that need someone to decide they're role and purpose... More inter connectivity, frequency Ect, or see what else they'd be more use as..

marno21

Markcheese wrote: »

True, but theres a few of our barely operational lines that need someone to decide they're role and purpose... More inter connectivity, frequency Ect, or see what else they'd be more use as..

They need to be run properly rather than being operated as ghost lines with token services to keep politicians happy.

The service on the Limerick Junction to Waterford line is totally inadequate. The state of the Ballybrophy line is rubbish. It's a case of either **** or get off the pot with these lines.

One difference with Youghal is it's a 23km line as opposed to the far lengthier lines above. The Youghal line also directly connects to the Midleton line rather than being circuitous. A 50mph service along the Youghal line to Midleton with a stop at Killeagh and possibly Mogeely would comfortably beat N25 journey times, especially at peak.

hans aus dtschl

Markcheese wrote: »

I'll see if I can find the stuff on Cork coco proposal for a new town/village at Waterock, (probably examiner), the amgen site (as was) is still being held for industrial development,
No idea what happened to the originally planned second carrigtohil and dunkettle stations,
But there are a couple more proposed stations for docklands (tivoli and silversprings I think),

https://corkcocoplans.ie/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2016/07/Water-Rock-Framework-Masterplan-Document.pdf

I think it's section 1.6 that mentions rail link,

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Location-of-new-Tivoli-train-station-and-Dockland-bridges-to-be-decided-98a974dc-4c1b-4b10-8b48-058c76c641a8-ds

That's a bit old but there is more up to date stuff around,port of Cork are supposed to be moving the Container port within a couple of years..

https://www.corkcoco.ie/public-consultation-part-8s

Closes 21 Dec 2018
Opened 09 Nov 2018
Results expected 04 Feb 2019
Public Information Day:
15th Nov 2018, 12:00 to 21:00 at Midleton Park Hotel, Garden Suite
Project No. 1 Services Corridor Link Road;
Project No. 2 Surface Water Drainage System;
Project No. 3 Junction Upgrade of Cork/Midleton Road and Midleton Northern Relief Road;
Project No. 4 Traffic Management Measures for Water-Rock Road;
Project No. 5 Bridge over Railway and Extension to Services Corridor Link Road to Access Proposed Railway Stop;
Project No. 6 Railway Stop;
Project No. 7 Upgrade/Realignment of Water-Rock Road;
Project No. 8 Wastewater Pumping Station

Markcheese

Youghal to Midleton rail should beat traffic on the n25,
Doubt if it'd youghal to Cork would beat traffic outside of rush hour... And even during rush hour if you've to get a bus at Kent station to get anywhere than city centre forget it...

hans aus dtschl

Markcheese wrote: »

Youghal to Midleton rail should beat traffic on the n25,
Doubt if it'd youghal to Cork would beat traffic outside of rush hour... And even during rush hour if you've to get a bus at Kent station to get anywhere than city centre forget it...

Again, I keep having to defend my viewpoint by saying I'm totally in favour of rail, but running it east of Midleton is sheer madness in the short-medium term. It's a longer term plan. And that's fine, but two things:
1. There are already right-of-way issues on this line because it wasn't maintained. Particularly at Ballyquirk.
2. The proposed greenway is to connect with another proposed cycle route running along the train alignment from Cork-Midleton, directly beside and parallel with the railway tracks. This appears in all of the traffic plans as cycle route IU-1. The Glanmire plans, Dunkettle Plans, Water Rock Plans, Cork Area Cycle Master Plan (city and county) and Little Island Transport plans all refer to this as one of THE key pieces of infrastructure towards achieving modal shift in the east Cork area. If everyone here is saying that a cycle route and rail route can't be done East of Midleton, then why on earth would it be possible West of Midleton?

Just for broader context: the N25 is currently not motorway standard and provision of a safe East-West cycle and pedestrian corridor is one of the (many) things limiting its upgrade.