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The End for Youghal?

Isambard

and other lines

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/midleton-youghal-line-may-formally-shut/2572831/

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marno21

Reputable Rog wrote: »

He's not a councillor, Labour have only 1 member and he's Cobh based. It is essentially the same as you or me or any other member of the public writing an opinion piece.
It's the NTA that will decide its future as a rail line in any event.

I stand corrected in that case.

XPS_Zero

I never understood the Green party.

After reading that utterly terrifying climate change report that just came out (a policy are I cared nothing about before, this has been a huge wake up call) I realized that as one of the central drivers of carbon emissions is transport, private transport, that one of the key ways to save humanity from climate change is going to be required an ENORMOUS unprecedented expansion, funding and construction of public transport and freight rail possibly as well (to get trucks off the road).

Given that people whos no1 issue was the environment would have known this before entering government in 2007, it baffles me that they wasted all their time on light bulb regulations and fur farms/puppy mills...thats' what they wasted their political capital on? At the start they had no leverage and were criminally stupid to go into govt as a result, if they don't need you to make up the numbers , and you are just there as insurance in case others drop out, then you have no leverage, and no leverage means your policies can be ignored which = depressed voters and members. Labours people were more concerend about getting one more pension but they were all pushing 70 anyway so didn't care, Greens were younger and had younger voters so they were playing with fire only lookin after their own pockets with such short term thinking. But even later they had leverage when others DID drop out, and they still allowed rail closures, they should have been screaming from the rooftops "transport infrastructure = less climate change and more economic growth long term which = more tax revenue = less cuts". But they didn't.

I had given them all my no2s and I was disgusted with them, I voted for them because I figured this WAS what a Green party would be pushing.

FF, SF and the other parties with the exception of FG are now filled with people who would wanna build way more, not less, so thats something, but it's my no1 conclusion after reading that report that this is our only way out of the climate change conundrum, and getting middle class people onto rail is the way to get their cars off the road. We may even, long term, have to make PT free or nearly free, or some kind of cheaper annual pass system.

But there is no point wasting money building lines to dead towns so planning policy will have to go right along with this, build places around these lines and make them dense not 100s of dormitory estates but apt blocks going up too. We already do this to a degree in the post Adamstown era, but were gonna have to do more of it.
Closing any line, knowing what we know now, IMO is short term thinking that will be seen as a huge blunder long term.

I don't know the area in this case ^ but waterford-wexford was stupid and to even THINK of closing Rosslare line is utterly moronic, Id be fine routing it to Bray instead of Connolly cos it will mean a more frequent service south, and it won't be getting in DARTs way anymore, but closing the lines mental.

If IE sees it's job as just managing the railways eventual decline (which they seem to) then maybe it's time we abolished them and put rail in the hands of a totally new agency like we did with Metro and Luas.

XPS_Zero

marno21 wrote: »

The Echo had an opinion piece up yesterday by a Councillor in Middleton advocating for the greenway

The comments on the post were about 10:1 in favour of a railway. I really hope these people are making their views known given there is a consultation ongoing

It's the NTA that will decide its future as a rail line in any event.

But major strategic decisions like that can be changed by political input. Agencies (Garda Commissioner, HSE, NTA.) manage areas day to day but all their founding legislation has a provision where the govt or minister can give them an order on any matter at any time and they have to comply with it. Even the DPP can have his job just taken off him in a specific area or in a specific case and the govt can order the AG to deal with the matter, though of course that particular powers rarely used compared to the other cases, the fact that its' there even in the case should make it clear where the power really is.

The agencies are partly there to take day to day management out of the hands of ministers that are usually dangerously incompetent bumbling fools (the ones the public enthusiastically elect, don't forget) and know nothing about their policy area, and also to give even the smart ones political cover for bad decisions.

The local council members have very little power over ANYTHING tbh (Irelands local govts a disgrace), yep even that guy who wears the incredibly stupid looking gold chain around his neck that the guys who wear it think makes them look impressive or important can do sweet FA to help you with FA. They can bring pressure on their parties and the parties on the minister but it depends how much of a stink they can kick up about it.

Markcheese

In the short to medium term, how many extra passengers would a reopened Midleton to youghal railway carry? And at what frequency?
(Its a single track line)., it'd make the Ennis —Athenry line look good.. Theres a huge amount of development to be done on suburban rail in Cork, to make it more usable,and interconnected, but it ain't on Midleton to youghal... Yet..

Itssoeasy

Markcheese wrote: »

In the short to medium term, how many extra passengers would a reopened Midleton to youghal railway carry? And at what frequency?
(Its a single track line)., it'd make the Ennis —Athenry line look good.. Theres a huge amount of development to be done on suburban rail in Cork, to make it more usable,and interconnected, but it ain't on Midleton to youghal... Yet..

It's single line but there is a passing loop at carrigtohill and it's double at the junction at glounthane and Midleton has two tracks running in the station which I pressume would become a passing loop if the line was extended and there are/were loops of some kind at killeagh and mogeely in the past.

wexfordman2

Markcheese wrote: »

In the short to medium term, how many extra passengers would a reopened Midleton to youghal railway carry? And at what frequency?
(Its a single track line)., it'd make the Ennis —Athenry line look good.. Theres a huge amount of development to be done on suburban rail in Cork, to make it more usable,and interconnected, but it ain't on Midleton to youghal... Yet..

Yeah,

cos its not like there is a housing crisis in cork city, and its not like youghal could/should be a commuter town, and its not like houses can be bought in youghal for a fraction of the cost of a house in current commutable distance to cork city.

Nope, no logic at all in extending a commuter line to what should be a commuter town.

marno21

Youghal is quite a bit from the city but it's not really going anywhere other than as a commuter town for Cork. It's also quite scenic and imo is underperforming for what it could be at present.

Added to the fact that the N25 between Midleton and Youghal is heavily congested which shows there is a large volume of commuters using the route.

Isambard

I've said it before, but there are far higher priorities to be addressed than this line to a declining seaside town. It seems a no brainer to me to develop the existing lines and it would cost very little imo to have a stopping service Cork to Limerick with several extra stations added. With currently only one train an hour in each direction for much of the day, there's certainly the capacity for it

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

I've said it before, but there are far higher priorities to be addressed than this line to a declining seaside town. It seems a no brainer to me to develop the existing lines and it would cost very little imo to have a stopping service Cork to Limerick with several extra stations added. With currently only one train an hour in each direction for much of the day, there's certainly the capacity for it

I agree with this but I also don't see why we can't do both. We're not exactly a poor country or anything.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with this but I also don't see why we can't do both. We're not exactly a poor country or anything.

It's not both, there's dozens of projects of more use than Youghal

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

It's not both, there's dozens of projects of more use than Youghal

Such as?

Isambard

you know as well as I do.

Itssoeasy

Isambard wrote: »

you know as well as I do.

I'm curious is it the fact you don't think the remainder of the Youghal line should be reopened at this time or is it you think it should be made into a greenway.

Isambard

I don't think it should be re-opened ahead of more useful projects. I'm not bothered either way about the Greenway, IE in other places have indicated that there would be provision for the land to revert to railuse if required one day which seems better protection than just leaving it fall into multiple hands.

I get the feeling that some people think that disused lines should be re-opened regardless of the reality on the ground, and in this case, with little knowledge of Youghal

Frostybrew

Isambard wrote: »

I don't think it should be re-opened ahead of more useful projects. I'm not bothered either way about the Greenway, IE in other places have indicated that there would be provision for the land to revert to railuse if required one day which seems better protection than just leaving it fall into multiple hands.

I get the feeling that some people think that disused lines should be re-opened regardless of the reality on the ground, and in this case, with little knowledge of Youghal

The reality on the ground in this case is that the Cork to Youghal corridor offers the best opportunity for rail based public transport expansion, post 2030, in the Greater Cork area. It has an existing rail alignment and ample flat land for residential expansion. Both Carrigtohill and Midleton will have reached their target populations by then; as will settlements such as Blarney, and Monard. Blarney and Monard need to be developed before 2030.

Indeed, much of the land between Blarney and Mallow is much less suitable for large scale residential development than the Youghal corridor due to less favourable topography.

A new town of 30000 in the Mogeely Castlemartyr area, with an expanded Youghal and Killeagh makes this a very viable proposition, much more viable than any other possible rail based commuting scenario outside of the GDA.

The Youghal to Midleton greenway on the rail line is an idiotic idea that needs to be knocked on the head ASAP; to ensure the future development of both rail based urban commuting, and viable suitable additions to our greenway network.

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

I don't think it should be re-opened ahead of more useful projects. I'm not bothered either way about the Greenway, IE in other places have indicated that there would be provision for the land to revert to railuse if required one day which seems better protection than just leaving it fall into multiple hands.

I get the feeling that some people think that disused lines should be re-opened regardless of the reality on the ground, and in this case, with little knowledge of Youghal

I suspect that having regularly holidayed in the area, travelled on the line as often as possible in the late 1970/80s and campaigning for its reopening for years I have some little knowledge of the line and its potential. Your experience of it is?

Turbohymac

Re opening the line for trains wouldn't be viable.. it was lost making in the 70s and even then they were taking freight and beet which added to its viability..but nowadays with no beet factories and most heavy haulage conducted by trucks I would certainly support the idea of developing it as a greenway.. having traveled by bicycle a few times recently from dungarvan to Waterford on the greenway down there ..i is a brilliant amenity for lots of people and lots of tourists also ..and they bring much needed revenue to places like kilmacthomas which would be a fair ghost town without the regular daily visitors from the greenway..
Simply open up youghal to Middleton rail line as a greenway and let it benefit the local community and visitors alike..
As for the railway that closed in the 80s RIP .. time to move on and make the current disused and neglected line into something great like our neighbouring waterford greenway

Del.Monte

No railway is financially viable as you put it - should they all be turned into Greenways? Cobh/Cork would be very scenic too.

Isambard

it's actually the rails that are not necessary nowadays. It should be easier and cheaper to install a system with a guided vehicle that doesn't run on rails. More flexible too as it could be arranged to run on ordinary roads at either end if desired . I wonder would people be so keen on re-opening the line as what amounts to a guided busway?

end of the road

Turbohymac wrote: »

Re opening the line for trains wouldn't be viable.. it was lost making in the 70s and even then they were taking freight and beet which added to its viability..but nowadays with no beet factories and most heavy haulage conducted by trucks I would certainly support the idea of developing it as a greenway.. having traveled by bicycle a few times recently from dungarvan to Waterford on the greenway down there ..i is a brilliant amenity for lots of people and lots of tourists also ..and they bring much needed revenue to places like kilmacthomas which would be a fair ghost town without the regular daily visitors from the greenway..
Simply open up youghal to Middleton rail line as a greenway and let it benefit the local community and visitors alike..
As for the railway that closed in the 80s RIP .. time to move on and make the current disused and neglected line into something great like our neighbouring waterford greenway

the fact it was loss making in the 70s means nothing. it's irrelevant to today. most lines in the 70s were loss making and are loss making today, a profitible passenger rail network will never exist in ireland or anywhere.
reopening the line for trains will definitely be viable once the factors in post 196 are taken into account. even as it is, reopening it would certainly be viable as it would remove some of the congestion from the surrounding roads which in turn will benefit road users, and it would also make youghal a more attractive and viable town to live in.
a greenway to youghal would probably end up being used by a small few locals only. the waterford greenway is being used to push all sorts of greenway projects across the country based on it's success, but the reality is that the waterford greenway has what is needed to attract people from far. some of the other suggested ones, especially youghal have absolutely nothing worth bothering about. the line's future is likely going to be a choice of remaining as is, or a rail line.

Isambard wrote: »

it's actually the rails that are not necessary nowadays. It should be easier and cheaper to install a system with a guided vehicle that doesn't run on rails. More flexible too as it could be arranged to run on ordinary roads at either end if desired . I wonder would people be so keen on re-opening the line as what amounts to a guided busway?

no as it would be a waste of money. getting traffic off the roads including where possible busses is the name of the game. + the amount of vehicles and drivers required to operate this at a meaningful capacity and frequency means we are better off just opening a railway.

Markcheese

Del.Monte wrote: »

No railway is financially viable as you put it - should they all be turned into Greenways? Cobh/Cork would be very scenic too.

True,... But like most things the truth is somewhere in the middle... I'd rather see the line being used and preserved for the the next 30 odd years rather than just ignored... Or worse IR. flogging off a crucial bit..

Frostybrew

The greenway should be built, using a different and much more scenic route. It needs to go via the coast, via Ballymacoda, Garryvoe, Ballycotton, Cloyne and on to East Ferry. Initial costs might be higher but long term value would also be much higher as this route is far more attractive than boring old farm land.

If you were to get really adventurous, have a spur from East Ferry to Great Island and onto Cobh eventually linking up with the Passage West cycle route. There could be a "cycle ferry" to get onto Great Island.

This would link up several tourist destinations and areas of high scenic value.

The rail route is very bland.

Markcheese

Isambard wrote: »

it's actually the rails that are not necessary nowadays. It should be easier and cheaper to install a system with a guided vehicle that doesn't run on rails. More flexible too as it could be arranged to run on ordinary roads at either end if desired . I wonder would people be so keen on re-opening the line as what amounts to a guided busway?

Ooohhh youre chucking the cat in among the pigeons there... ðŸ˜€
A bus, especially a bendy bus traveling along a dedicated route,? That sounds a lot like BRT, blasphemy blasphemy.....

Cork Trucker

Big supporter of the line here.

Liam Quaide of the Green Party is the most vocal on Facebook about it,

Cllr Danielle Twomey (SF) has recently blocked him from the East Cork Discussion Group page as she disagreed with something he said. A lady who tried to defend Liam was also blocked.

Cllr Mary Linehan-Foley (IND) the current deputy county mayor & Youghal representative was in favour of getting it reinstated for years as was David Stanton TD (FG) before 2011 when his party entered government.

Alot has changed since the last train in 1988 i think it was, when the GAA special was put on.

Being regularly in touch with a railway 'nut' who has made a very valid point yes this line is needed to ease the congestion on the N25, for those who say the line is doomed, the very same was said of Midleton when i was in the town in 2002 "never again, we'll never see a train here in our lifetime" were the words mooted of some locals, and god forgive me for saying it, the line reopening was sanctioned and opened under a FF/Green government.

If this becomes a greenway then it will only go the same way as the West Cork Line did, which in its own right was the most stupid decision in Cork rail history.

I fully expect the Cllr's to ignore the objections lodged, myself being one of them, and approve the greenway, but it can and probably will be appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

The NTA have the power to order the line to be reopened, also the money is there, this coming from an internal source who is high up in Irish Rail.

Just remember, the screaming baby always gets seen to first, looks like us babies will need to scream a bit louder.

People need to understand that Midleton to Youghal has nothing to offer that can compete with the Deise line.

And those saying that the line will be kept for potential future use, can you imagine the protests from cycling and walking groups if they tried to shut down a greenway and hand it over for what it was originally intended for? There'd be uproar, time to nip this in the bud before it's too late.

Markcheese

Frostybrew wrote: »

The greenway should be built, using a different and much more scenic route. It needs to go via the coast, via Ballymacoda, Garryvoe, Ballycotton, Cloyne and on to East Ferry. Initial costs might be higher but long term value would also be much higher as this route is far more attractive than boring old farm land.

If you were to get really adventurous, have a spur from East Ferry to Great Island and onto Cobh eventually linking up with the Passage West cycle route. There could be a "cycle ferry" to get onto Great Island.

This would link up several tourist destinations and areas of high scenic value.

The rail route is very bland.

I've no problem with that, but the cost would be staggering... As well as years maybe decades of legal battles, I'd happily settle for the previously proposed (and long forgotten) bike lane and foot path to whitegate from Midleton,a greenway shadowing the Midleton carrigtohil road (via ballintubber) would be nice too...

Markcheese

Frostybrew wrote: »

The greenway should be built, using a different and much more scenic route. It needs to go via the coast, via Ballymacoda, Garryvoe, Ballycotton, Cloyne and on to East Ferry. Initial costs might be higher but long term value would also be much higher as this route is far more attractive than boring old farm land.

If you were to get really adventurous, have a spur from East Ferry to Great Island and onto Cobh eventually linking up with the Passage West cycle route. There could be a "cycle ferry" to get onto Great Island.

This would link up several tourist destinations and areas of high scenic value.

The rail route is very bland.

Isambard

Markcheese wrote: »

Ooohhh youre chucking the cat in among the pigeons there... &#55357;&#56832;
A bus, especially a bendy bus traveling along a dedicated route,? That sounds a lot like BRT, blasphemy blasphemy.....

rather confirms my suspicions about peoples motives for wanting a railway re-opened.

There are buses available which are hard to tell from a LUAS. All you need is a guidance system and there's your railway without the rails. I can't see how it can't be anything but cheaper than installing conventional tracks. A Trolleybus system if you like.

marno21

Ripping up railways that are extensions of newly developed commuter rail routes which directly connect into the city centre of Ireland's 2nd city, and pass through three major employment centres is daft. Absolutely daft.

I fear a lot of the pro-greenway ideology for here is because "sure we'll never see trains again".

Greenways on railways such as the one to Achill Island and Valentia Island make sense but hardly here.

marno21

Been discussed in depth on PROC here too http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243760

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Ripping up railways that are extensions of newly developed commuter rail routes which directly connect into the city centre of Ireland's 2nd city, and pass through three major employment centres is daft. Absolutely daft.

I fear a lot of the pro-greenway ideology for here is because "sure we'll never see trains again".

Greenways on railways such as the one to Achill Island and Valentia Island make sense but hardly here.

would it not make more sense to be extending rail along the quays and through the City Centre? Just one project I'd rank above Youghal.
If trackless buses don't float your boat, how about converting the Midleton and Cobh branches to Light Rapid Transit?